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[915+] Bellamy’s Flag

Discussion in 'One Piece Theories' started by Marco Polo, Aug 28, 2018.

  1. Marco Polo

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    BIG SPOILER WARNING

    So this theory was inspired by this comment from @Johannes :

    There’s a bit of ambiguity when it comes to the current “ownership” of Fishman Island - Luffy has stated his desire to make Fishman Island his turf, and King Neptune has stated his desire to be under Luffy’s protection:

    13668B11-7644-4F9D-AED5-1F3D514FA9E3.png
    042CF150-9AD9-4361-B368-5C7C8C65FEB1.jpeg

    Now this would imply that Luffy now has territory, but there’s a bit of a problem: Big Mom’s flag is still flying there

    DF067F61-0B8E-403B-98CF-04025E7AD01A.jpeg

    Now I will admit, that panel comes from way back in the Fishman Island arc, but the fact that we haven’t seen Big Mom’s flag taken down and replaced yet is because it hasn’t happened yet.

    The next question you might have is “Her flag’s still there, so what?”

    Flags are used to mark territory in One Piece, especially when it comes to the Yonko marking their territory. For example, take a look at the Barto cover story, where they enter Shanks’ territory:

    DD819CC5-1D45-4260-B5B4-67EF747F7F3E.jpeg

    For Luffy to officially have his first piece of territory (Hancock doesn’t count), he needs that Mugiwara flag to take the place of Big Mom’s. Now, it might be that he’s waiting until he’s actually beaten her to do it, but that still raises the question of how he’s going to get a new flag and hang it up on Fishman Island.

    Enter: Bellamy.

    On the cover story for chapter 915, we see that Bellamy’s working as a flag maker:

    237A4A81-8F90-49F4-92A3-B7CA97AC6A42.png

    We know from the incidents in Dressrosa that Bellamy has a large-ish amount of respect for Luffy, and is arguably indebted to him for saving him from being killed at the hands of Doflamingo. Now it may not seem like much, but in the One Piece world, flags hold a lot of significance (remember Dr. Hiluluk?). It’s possible that Bellamy is in the process of making, or will make, a Straw Hat flag or two for Luffy to mark his territory with. He could deliver them to Luffy with the help of his trusty Vivre Card, or he could go directly to King Neptune himself and deliver the flag personally. I think both options would make sense, especially since Luffy’s return to Fishman Island has been prophecised, but Bellamy delivering it himself would give his cover story a bit of direction, as well as adding more fuel to the Big Mom fire while Luffy is in Wano.

    By no means is this a perfect theory, it’s just a quick idea that I thought I’d share and let you guys scrutinise ^_^
     
  2. Johannes

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    Thanks @Marco Polo

    This reminded me of the Ice Hunter Arc with the Accino Family as the main antagonist.

    I would like to see the changing of Flags between Big Moms to Straw Hats flag as that would make a greater statement who's turf/territory Fishman Island belong. Also as what I've said earlier it would be cool of Bellamy if this was the case.
     
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  3. Jawahib

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    Hahaha I love this. I mean Luffy now has over 5000 underlings indebted to him; if he put the artistically talented ones to work (hell they'd probably do it without being ordered to) making flags, he'd be good to go. Bellamy being the chief flag-maker will be just an awesome thing to have as a large-scale Pirate, like he's so well-established he's even outsourced something so "trivial" as flag making. Not necessary but a great touch in making Luffy come across as a "professional" pirate.

    Something else on flags. Everything you've said is exactly correct, but I want to elaborate on it a bit more. As you say, flags are used to mark territory, but not just in One Piece. The reason Pirate flags existed was to renounce loyalty to any country and create a new territory on board the ship. This is one of the reasons pirates were so despised by the governments; they were literally a big middle finger to any kind of authority.

    When you fly a flag, say the Straw Hat flag, on a ship, you say "This ship is Straw Hat country, and Straw Hat law is in effect". The moment the flag is gone, you're in no-man's land. And this is true of countries too; revolutions will typically end in the destruction of the reigning government's flag to signify that this land no longer belongs to them.

    Moving back to the world of One Piece, and it's a much bigger deal to be a pirate than it was/is in ours. If you saw a pirate ship back in that era, you wouldn't know which government they were abandoning. Of course it was a spit in the face to authority in general, but it wasn't personal towards any specific government. In One Piece of course there's only one such government; the World Government. Every Pirate is a personal insult to them and the Marines. To be a Pirate is to declare independence from the World Government and abandon any obligated adherence to its laws. This is why the Celestial Dragon was so offended by Sabo flying the flag in front of his face; it would just come across as an invasion (of sorts) at worst, and disrespect at best.

    So with relation to Big Mom's flag being over Fishman Island, that flag means "This land is Big Mom's country, under Big Mom's rule", even though her only real rule is that they need to meet her quota of candy and she is so indifferent regarding the rule of Fishman Island that she lets Neptune still govern and call himself king. The protection is in name only. Big Mom owns the land, so if the World Government tried to reclaim it, they'd have to face the consequences of insulting and declaring war on her, which obviously they won't want to do since they haven't already. The moment that flag vanishes, the World Government are free to take it back as their own land. If they swapped it for Luffy's, not only would they have to face Big Mom's wrath, but the Government would now have to evaluate the cost of taking it from Luffy's forces; which I imagine are a fraction of Big Mom's. That'd mean Luffy would be fighting a war on two fronts all over again against two of the largest superpowers in the world, and I don't think even Oda could write him out of that situation. So at this point I want to say it's extreeemely unlikely that Neptune will put up the Straw Hat flag since he'll either be damning Luffy to the aforementioned war, or incurring the wrath of Big Mom who'll probably just invade it and put the land under a much harsher rule than it already is.

    The problem with this, or at least the extremely confusing thing about this, is that Big Mom still lets Neptune go to the Reverie. She should by all strategically logical metrics, absolutely prohibit him from doing so. The Reverie is for high-tier World Government-owned lands. What stops Neptune going to the council "Yeah nah so we've got this tyrant who demands an extreme amount of candy from us every year under threat of destruction. Could you guys, the most powerful organisation in the world which I'm a part of, please sort that out? kthx"? He either hasn't mentioned it to them (probable); and the reason for this is that he genuinely prefers Big Mom's rule over the World Government's, which I doubt (though it's not impossible) so I can't really explain that, and the WG just don't care that someone who by all means is an enemy is just chilling at their council, or he has and the World Government tells him that they ceebs declaring war on her given how poorly Marineford went and he needs to suck it up, at which point he can only pout and say "strongest organisation my scaly arse", but would still be extremely disrespectful to a large and geographically crucial country they control.

    It's so illogical I'd go so far as to call it a plot hole, and the same would be true of any country under a Yonko's flag that attend the Reverie. How do the WG see such countries?
    Does it not bother them that there are rulers at their table under oppression from those they deem to be the enemy? Why wouldn't the rulers just annex themselves in that case? It's not like attending the Reverie would actually make a difference seeing as the respective Emperor would be the one who made the administrative decisions too high for that ruler to handle, and obviously the WG isn't bringing any of its resources to bear to liberate them?
    Or does it bother them but they acknowledge they aren't militaristically equipped to reclaim those territories? In this case I'd again ask; why would their Emperors allow them to attend the council?

    I didn't actually realise there was such a large plot issue until I saw this thread, so thanks for that Marco :P
     
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  4. gboxrkw

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    This seems a nice theory, would add some spice in the cover stories, till now there isnt much of the cover story which made me excited.
     
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  5. Johannes

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    #5 Johannes, Aug 28, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2018
    that was a long read but worthwhile! I think that the WG doesn't have the capacity for an All Out war towards the Yonko's! The fact that the WG branded them as Emperor's of the Sea shows their respect to them as the strongest of all and obviously the WG is scared of them.

    Just like the time in Marineford Arc between Whitebeard Pirates vs Marines. Imagine the Shichibukai out of the picture would the marines have a chance in defeating the Whitebeard's Fleet? (don't think so, that's why the Shichibukai are there in the first place and even the appearance of Shanks without his Fleet makes the Marines shudder in fear) that would be the case for Big Mom Pirates! It's suicide for the WG to interfere (knowing that Ryugu Kingdom is part of the WG) with Fishman Island that it is protected by Big Mom.

    Simply:

    "The World Government does not tolerate any of their affiliate nations having associations with powerful pirates, as both Alabasta and Dressrosa were concerned with their friendly relationship with the Straw Hat Pirates, and Germa was disconnected from the World Government once their attempt to ally with the Big Mom Pirates became known. However, the Sakura Kingdom is still a member nation of the World Government despite bearing a pirate flag and Fishman Island is still affiliated with the government despite being under the protection of a pirate. Fraternization with lesser pirates, on the other hand, seem to be more permissible (or simply harder to detect), as the Goa Kingdom made deals with the Bluejam Pirates, and the king even once offered them the title of nobility for a great service (although he actually plotted to eliminate the crew once they served their purpose), while Kano Kingdom employs the Happo Navy. Water 7 is permitted to offer their shipwright services to anyone, even pirates, under the common understanding that the shipwright cannot control how their ships are being used by the clients."

    Source: World Government
     
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  6. Chaudfontaine

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    I think it would be nice since Bellamy has respect for luffy, but can't leave his pride for following a wrong man.
    A flagmaker can be very independent.

    If the countries are being oppressed by pirates, isn't inviting them to Reverie not a good check on how they are doing? They probably will not release any crucial info, but seeing that the royal families are fine, should be reason enough to force a meeting every few years.
     
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  7. Kia

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    #7 Kia, Aug 28, 2018
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 28, 2018
    So it’s definitely interesting to think about but how would Bellamy even know that Neptune and Luffy each have decided on their own that Fishman Island is under Straw Hat protection? It’s not like Luffy wants or even acknowledges his alleged fleet (of which Bellamy isn’t an official part). And Luffy doesn’t know what Bellamy is up to. We saw the vivre card get split up but there seems to be an assumption based on what Luffy said that the den den mushi numbers were exchanged as well. So sure, Bellamy could call up and ask Luffy if he needs some flags or just tell him that he made them and ask where to deliver them (that’s most likely, with Nami taking the call and coordinating). But still, Bellamy is so prideful that if he can’t do something without playing it off, I doubt he’d do it. Just based on the way he even took the vivre card on the first place.

    Edited because autocorrect doesn’t know what “vivre card” is.

    Not to beat a dead horse here but Luffy thinks he’s got a bunch of pushy friends. He’s not amused by the “Grand Fleet” calling him boss. The likelihood of him ordering them to do anything for him is about as high as him conceding the throne of pirate king, as far as I can tell from precedent set. It’s more likely that some or one of them would manage to find out that Luffy needed flags or he mentioned that he wanted to protect a certain area and then, lo and behold, magically they set to work making a bunch of them, “on Big Boss’ orders.” This would drive Luffy crazy if he heard the orders part, a la Dressrosa departure, but he’d appreciate the sentiment/assistance because it would mean protection for his other friends.

    He doesn’t want to be a professional pirate or someone important. He just wants to be free. He wants to be pirate king and have adventures with his friends. All that status stuff is for someone else, of course he keeps accidentally acquiring followers and fans and such because of who he is but he’s not trying to be an organized, proper anything, let alone pirate lol

    It was my understanding that the Ryugu Kingdom hadn’t actually attended a reverie in years and the one where Otohime was killed was going to be the first they went to in a while but I could be misrembering that part. Regardless, I believe that Neptune has not said anything about Big Mom. Furthermore, I think that the WG never really saw a need to kick them out since they barely saw the Ryugu Kingdom as members to begin with—let’s be real, they have no presence under water, they can’t police or protect them (or CD when they show up in their domain). So it’s either that or trying to maintain ‘the balance of powers’ that’s referred to so often in the New World but I’m leaning more towards the dismissive attitude towards them with only a dash of the latter. The latter being more applicable to other nations.
     
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  8. Jawahib

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    True. I suppose I should have phrased that part better; I doubt he'd actually order anyone to make a flag anyway, but I was just making the point that it'd be unlikely that Bellamy would be his only choice or even the most convenient choice for flag supplier.
    Yeah but that was a discrimination issue. Neptune's attitude to attending is that it'll help relations with humans. As you say it's never mentioned that Fishman Island is under Big Mom's control, which no matter which way you slice it is extremely odd seeing as it'd have overarching effects over just about every issue a Reverie like that could bring up. Like what administrative issue could Fishman Island discuss that wouldn't be directly influenced by Big Mom's control? Councils like that would probably talk about stuff like taxes and infrastructure. Health, economy, satisfaction of populations; disease/plague/famine/crime rates/possibilities of revolutions in local populaces. Anything that the combined powers of the world could assist them with or should be aware of. I imagine a lot of resources of the WG are redistributed quite differently after each Reverie. Inversely they'd also discuss how those countries contribute to the WG; stuff like manpower for Marines, certain supplies/taxes that countries pay their ultimate rulers. Countries will consolidate positions and try to make sure their voices are heard and their problems acknowledged.

    But absolutely all these topics when applied to a Yonko-controlled kingdom will in some way reflect on the Yonko. Even stuff that might seem unrelated - say there was a disease outbreak on Fishman Island that they needed the WG's resources to find a cure for. To give Fishman Island the cure would be to give Big Mom the power to cure that disease. She would then be free to use that disease as a biological weapon and immunise her own forces to it; and the World Government would reap no benefit from that incredible risk. If the WG assists with crime, they're just bringing stability to an enemy-controlled state with no benefit.

    Would they help out of altruism? I mean, maybe but from what we've seen of their motives there's next to no chance of that being the case. To help out their own countries is to strengthen their own power. To help out an enemy's country is to... strengthen the enemy's power. I could understand if there was some ambassador on behalf of Big Mom, but I doubt those powers are on speaking terms - certainly not enough to undertake official trade negotiations.

    And again, inversely, if the World Government demands contributions from Ryugu, they're making demands from Big Mom. Surely that's a declaration of war? No matter which way you slice it there's just no middle ground that can soundly justify a Yonko-owned kingdom's presence at the Reverie without a spokesperson for that Yonko.
     
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  9. Kia

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    Well to be fair, nothing has come up yet other than the issue they want to discuss which is moving to the surface. That sort of blows everything else out of the water so to speak. There was the huge debacle with asshat Charloss (again?!) who just HAS to have himself a mermaid. But now that they’re talking, it’s possible that it’ll come up? Like maybe one of the other rulers will mention it?

    But I see your point on the resources issues. It’s just that I don’t foresee that being an actual problem. It could be that the WG understood how BM works in that if it wasn’t Totto Land, she just has a transactional relationship with the places and will basically let them use the flag for a price. That’s what was said by Baron Tamago back during the Fishman Island arc. I don’t see any real desire of hers for anything but candy from them. She doesn’t really have an attachment to it or proprietary feelings about the Kingdom at all enough to get involved with its operations to the degree required to exploit it.

    The difference with Germa being that there was going to be a marriage tie so clearly BM would honor and be involved in this link. Likely, in their eyes, Germa was always just one step from being a bunch of mercenaries anyways so banishing them from the WG wasn’t a difficult choice to make.
     
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  10. Johannes

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    This just shows that the World Government doesn't really care for Ryugu Kingdom, Big Mom Pirates and their Problems! The one thing that the WG cares is the "Heavenly Tribute" that the affiliated Kingdom's (especially Ryugu Kingdom) should meet (for protection).

    This also applies to Big Mom as she doesn't really also care for Ryugu Kindom, The World Government and their Problems, the only thing she cares is the demanded large amounts of candy as payment (for protection).

    Clearly the one's suffering is the Ryugu Kindom and its people!
     
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  11. Jawahib

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    Well after the events of the arc the narration tells us they spent sometime (I think a few weeks?) talking about the administrative issue, so I'm more focusing on what was said in that unseen time.
    I don't either. I'm saying that it should be though. The fact that the Big Mom flag flies over the country is a statement that the World Government has no place in it. A big "piss off" sign to anyone who might seek to interfere with the country in any meaningful way. That alone leaves no room for Neptune to be at the Reverie. To the World Government he's either an enemy or an occupied state that must be liberated. If the latter, why does Big Mom allow him to go? For all she knows he's enlisting them to liberate them of her control and deprive her of her candy. If the former, why does the World Government just treat him as an ordinary king and not mention Big Mom at all? Like, she literally cannot afford to be so indifferent to the fact that someone in the territory she owns has attended private meetings in the organisation that is her greatest threat; especially given her crew's current status post-Luffy.

    Yeah no but it's an implication that if you fly her flag you fly no one else's. By that logic it'd be possible to fly both the Big Mom flag and the World Government flag, but that's a recipe for disaster since you'd be offending both parties. Practically all she wants is their candy and doesn't give a crap about any internal matters (presumably unless they threaten the candy production). If it was nothing more than an agreement that she'd offer protection for candy, then A) they wouldn't be flying her flag and B) there'd be no need to threaten destruction if she doesn't get what she wants. Wantonly destroying Fishman Island would, on top of being a pointlessly difficult challenge, would create too many enemies to be worth doing out of pettiness. If the other superpowers see her as a force that engages in impulsive destruction of places she doesn't like, they'll take action to remove her. They'd tear her down since the only thing keeping the world from war is a stalemate, and she'd threaten that.

    If she's really so indifferent to anything that Fishman Island brings her except candy (which is likely btw), then she allows for Fishman Island to join the World Government (I doubt the WG would turn such a thing down given there's a Poneglyph there and they want world domination anyway so reject a volunteering nation?) and fight against her. Not only is that a violation of her "protection" (she's not protecting them from the World Government's forces), it's an incredible risk.
    But that's my point. Why would Ryugu pay the Heavenly Tribute (totally forgot that was a thing btw) when they have Big Mom protecting them? To demand it of them is to demand it of Big Mom. For Big Mom to allow them to pay it is beyond a doubt a violation of her protection. It's a fiction and there'd be no need to pay the candy tribute to her. I mean, what's she protecting them from that they can't handle with their own military, if not other superpowers? No matter which way you slice it something doesn't add up.

    And the WG can't afford to completely neglect one of the kingdoms at its Reverie table. Just imagine: the WG offers the protection of the Marines and promises to mediate peace in the world in exchange for a tribute and submission to their rule from obliging countries. Now imagine that one of the countries says "Send help we are under siege from this large army that's coming to invade" and the WG just says "no it's not worth our resources". What are all the other rulers going to think? Surely that the WG would do the exact same to them and their "Marines" and their promises mean nothing. Any king/queen with a brain would pull out of the organisation at that point, the WG would lose almost all its power and the Marines would crumble without resources and would run out of manpower.
    So if that's the case with Fishman Island, and one of their own council members rules a country that is claimed to be under the "protection" of an enemy force, to the extent that that enemy's flag flies over the country, then in order to keep all the rulers satisfied in the ability and willingness of the WG to fulfil its promises, it would need to hasten to get rid of that enemy.

    Just imagine the politics that would be involved if any country, say France, went up to New York and said, "Hey we'll give you protection if you give us $1tril a year". I mean that offer alone would be scandalous enough, but now imagine it went a step further and they replaced all the American flags with French flags. But then after all that New York still was treated by the US as a state as though nothing had happened, and continue to make their contributions to the US. Like, who becomes responsible for New York at this point? How hasn't this brokered war between the two parties? Why would both sides allow tribute to be paid to the other? It's so confusing and illogical as a precedent you have to wonder how it started. Of course there's a lot more nuance to make this a perfectly fair comparison, but it's close enough to have a similar level of confusion.
     
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  12. Kia

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    But the problem is that because of discrimination and MAYBE logistics the WG wasn’t protecting them ever which is why Whitebeard had to step in back in the day to do so. Frankly it’s like the fact that legally people of color and the poor can vote and have access to resources in the US and have been able to since certain constitutional amendments were passed but realistically without a helluva lot of advocacy and work to make sure those rights are enacted and protected, it’s not really true. The WG is made up of individuals, prejudiced individuals, racists because they have the institutional power to enact their prejudices. So as has been stated before, it’s about no one caring what happens to the people of that kingdom more than it’s about the power/logistics of government. Because in other kingdoms things have been handled more effectively.

    Yes I do believe that all BM wants is her sweets and they showed Bobbins reporting that he destroyed another island for not paying back during that arc. Considering that until Brook, even Prometheus had never been injured, I don’t think, taking her out of power for being capricious or a bad ruler would be so simple. I get the impression the yonko are more laissez faire with one another anyways, they interact and skirmish from time to time but don’t really try to run each other’s business like that unless it’s huge. Otherwise why not try to band together to take out Kaido just because of his goal? That’s more potentially damaging than some bad management skills.
     
  13. Johannes

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    @Jawahib and @Kia You both should be Politicians not Theorist

    I'm joking :grin: :kissingheart:
     
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  14. Kia

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    Yeah we totally hijacked the thread. Sorry @Marco Polo we’re well beyond the scope of the flag making here but still talking about domain and such. It’s flag tangential. ^_^
     
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  15. Jawahib

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    OK but the only way to hold this position is to believe that the other rulers were so unbothered by the WG's treatment of one of their equals because each and every one of them was racist and believed that the WG was also racist so its mistreatment of Fishman Island would have no implications on them. Few enough eyebrows were raised that the rulers who might have been concerned that the negligence of the Fishmen could translate to their own kingdoms later held their tongue.
    And I mean I can imagine this being true, but the question is immediately raised of why they bothered with the farce in the first place? What could they possibly glean from feigning the goodwill to treat the Fishmen as a constituent kingdom, but then unashamedly screwing them over? A sadistic desire to humiliate them? A disingenuous attempt to absorb a Fishman kingdom into your global organisation bent on controlling the world is very out of character.
    I get the same impression, but consider the logistics of declaring protection of Fishman Island. You'd risk war for some candy? Avenging the mistreatment of a subordinate I understand, wars for actually useful resources I understand, but candy? Like, if I was Kaido and I knew that Big Mom was going around invading territories controlled by other superpowers for nothing more than a personal taste, if some kind of specific agreement wasn't reached there'd need to be war before she came after my own islands that contained sweets.

    Big Mom would need to have agreements with all the other Yonko about not invading them for their sweets, but in general it just turns her into a menace as a superpower who's only left alone because it's too much effort to take her down. It's probable that all the other Yonko (probably except Shanks) have their own personal tastes that make them similarly unreliable (I can imagine Kaido collecting SMILEs and Blackebeard collecting Devil Fruit users), but those tastes aren't as oriented towards owning territory as Big Mom's is, so the risk of Blackbeard invading a territory for a unique DF (since he can lure that user out), or Kaido invading a territory for some SMILEs (since he's got his own source) is significantly lower than Big Mom trying to take over an island for its unique candy-making facilities.
    Haha gotta disagree on this one. I don't even like politics that much, and my knowledge in the field is quite low. Everything I'm using in this argument is just rooted how I think the logic of the interactions would play out, so it's entirely likely there's something major I've missed or am straight up wrong on a few points.

    Haha yeah we could get in trouble for this one :P.
    I wouldn't mind making a new thread about it though, I find it a super interesting topic.
     
  16. Chaudfontaine

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    even it's outside the scope, the spark happend here. Carry on mi dudes.
     
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  17. Kia

    Kia
    I resemble that remark
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    On the other nations: yes they’re all racist and don’t care. Not like KKK level but like negiglent NIMBY level part of the problem socialized to be that way. Or rather they’re MAYBE inadvertently part of the problem? Either way, ignorance fosters distance and lack of concern for the plight of the Citizens of Ryugu Kingdom. It’s like separate but equal. They’re members but not really members.

    Big Mom’s appetite caused her parents to abandon her (she was exiled), the destruction of the village of Elbalf, her to be all alone and rules her life. I’m pretty confident in saying that it is a major factor in her government style. They showed it in her flashbacks of early pirate days. The woman loves her sweets above all else. The dream of United people’s and peace is just borrowed from Mother Carmel because of how much she idolized her as a child. All she truly cares about is food. Though we’re led to believe that maybe the Ryugu kingdom came to her because of her rhetoric and the fact that they had the candy to offer was how they got her to agree. Or that’s the impression I got from the conversation Jimbei and Neptune had when they discussed responsibilities and whatnot back towards the end of that arc.

    Yeah a new thread would work for me. I was lazy on my quoting separations because I didn’t feel like fighting with my phone this time (sorry about that) but I’m sure that you still followed what was a response to what.
     
  18. Jawahib

    Both Exotic and Professor
    Busoshoku Haki YouTube Team
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    Yeah but that doesn't directly address the point I was trying to make before.

    I think it's safe to assume that the World Government will crumble without the participation of all its constituent nations. This means its number 1 priority in maintaining its hold and power is to keep them happy and give them reasons to remain submissive. These reasons would largely be the assistance of the military power of the Marines, as well as promises to assist the countries in times of turmoil. I assume this since these are the kinds of things hinted at in the Reverie arc.

    Now, the Government doesn't care too much about the countries to fiddle around with the internal workings of each of them, so they leave them alone until they're asked for assistance. This means that the only functional things that keep the countries submissive to the WG are the Marines who go after pirates and keep passenger/cargo ships safe, and the promises of protection/assistance each country has from the WG. So the ways for the WG to entirely unravel and lose the faith of all its members is if they one day pull out all the Marines from the ocean and let pirates run rampant, or if they prove that their promises of protection are lies. I was focusing more on the latter with the previous point.

    So practically, an extremely easy way for the WG to destroy itself would be to just ignore a cry for help from a nation of the Reverie. This would destroy the faith of all the other members, and they wouldn't feel it's worth it to remain a part of them since if they didn't help out that one nation, and we're all meant to be equal, why would they help mine? If there is no answer to that question, then they're gone.

    Now, we're talking about that exact scenario: Ryugu is calling out for help to get rid of Big Mom's monthly tributes and getting none. The question is asked internally by the other rulers: "If they don't help Ryugu why would they help my kingdom?". It's possible to answer that with "Ah because they're all racist and don't actually care about the plight of a bunch of Fishmen. We're human though so of course they'd help out my kingdom!"

    Of course that answer doesn't stand to the slightest bit of scrutiny. The only way it would stand is if all those rulers were so racist within themselves that they stopped exactly at that point of thought and went "Good, because who cares about those disgusting fish?". If they thought about it for even a second they'd realise that regardless of how happy it makes you that the Fishmen are being treated as second class, the WG made a promise to someone who is technically your equal which it broke. They'd realise that if racism was the only reason they weren't helping out Ryugu then it wouldn't make sense that they were in the council in the first place. They'd realise that there's something that doesn't add up here. The idea that Fishmen are treated as second-class "members but not really members" flies in the face of the fact that they're still members entitled to at least the bare minimum of what that would entail - Marines and protection. That's what I was trying to get at in the first part of my last response.

    And it's worth noting that this is all assuming that Neptune actually did ask for help at the Reverie, which I honestly doubt he did anyway. It'd be too pivotal a moment for Oda to gloss over it, so the only way to really recover from this plot hole is with theories, none of which can stand . Even though it makes no sense, I see no reason to assume given how it's all played out like Big Mom's occupation of Fishman Island was never mentioned by Neptune or acknowledged in any decisions that may have been made.
     
  19. Kia

    Kia
    I resemble that remark
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    Got it. I thought you were asking why the yonko had to step in to help them in the first place. Like why weren’t they being protected? So I was addressing the wrong issue.

    But I agree that I don’t think they asked for help to escape from Big Mom, for a few reasons:
    1. They asked for her help and accepted her terms. Even as unreasonable as they seem to us and Luffy, it’s still a far sight better than anything they were getting from the WG.
    2. They don’t think they’d get it. They’ve technically been members of the WG for years but fat lot of good it’s donr them in terms of keeping their citizens safe from harm. The top tier of the WG is the worst perpetrator of atrocities against them or the source of it, if they didn’t want the slaves, then there wouldn’t be a market for them and the hatred and bias wouldn’t be passed on to humans who are all to happy to not be on the bottom of the food chain.
    3. They’re going over to Luffy anyways and don’t want to draw attention to that/him any more than necessary.

    Of course, your logic presupposes that the average person can see past their prejudice to be logical. Once you’ve dismissed something as happening to a person or group because they’re subhuman, you’ve automatically banished even the slightest possibility of it happening to yourself because you are as far removed from that or those things as it humanly possible to be. (Yes the terminology was intentional.) That’s how the language centers of the brain work and how we classify and categorize and process. It’s sickening but true. I mean, some people have done the work to get past it. And there are clearly a few leaders present who would see it: Dalton and Cobra, Rebecca, etc. But then you’ve got people like Stelly and the crazy things he heard about fishmen and you have to wonder just how many others are as warped.
     
  20. Marco Polo

    circus act
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    Oh man, lots to catch up with - hopefully I haven't fallen too far behind

    This is a very good point, actually

    I'm guessing Luffy won't flag anything until he's actively considered as one of the Yonko then - since they're considered an important part of the "balance of power" in the One Piece world. The WG tend not to mess with them from what I can tell, so until then being under Big Mom's protection is probably safer due to her status?

    I never actually thought about this. The only answer I'd have is that Big Mom either a) doesn't care that much about the island itself, only the candy (likely), or b) believes she has the power to overwhelm whoever they send her way. Or maybe both. But even these explanations aren't particularly satisfying

    All the possibilities you brought up re: Neptune make sense, though

    Agreed

    This is a point, actually. There's a few possibilities here:

    1) It's already come out in the news that Luffy wants to make Fishman Island his turf, and Neptune has announced that he wishes to be under Luffy's protection

    2) Neptune is about to announce that he wishes to be under Luffy's protection at the Reverie - in which case it will almost certainly make the news

    3) Bellamy doesn't give the flag to Fishman Island directly, and instead delivers it to Luffy - Luffy can go raise the flag himself

    You don't need to apologise, it's all very good stuff and it's been a good read
     
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