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Blackbeard's secret

Discussion in 'One Piece Theories' started by Admiral Ryokugyu, Jun 4, 2018.

  1. Admiral Ryokugyu

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    #101 Admiral Ryokugyu, Jul 26, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2018
    @Jawahib Hahaha can't believe you just saw it ! Thanks for reading it though ^^

    Rest assured, you're not a killjoy, your feedback is very welcomed.

    Very true. Same thing goes for all other ONE PIECE theories.

    What you say here is very important and I fully agree with it. But I never actually said that it's Teach himself who controls his brothers' hands and powers. I left this open for speculation. What i meant is that we readers saw Teach in Marineford using both Yami Yami no Mi and Gura Gura no mi. I thought about this for a long time even before posting this theory. What i thought of is that maybe Teach's brothers act accordingly to Teach's will, not because they read his mind, but because they're kinda synchronized with him as twins who were close to each other for a very long time and they know each other well. So for example when Teach goes into Gura Gura stance, his brother who ate the Gura Gura no Mi understands that Teach intends to attack using that fruit, so he uses the power. It might also be some kind of telepathy between the 3 brothers ... I don't wanna go deep into that because i'll sound too far-fetched xD but you never know what Oda will do.

    I repeat. What you said is very important, it's the key point in this theory and, in my opinion, its major flaw. If i had discovered the way Teach might be communicating with his brothers inside him, then i'm sure this theory would be a " fact " XD

    I didn't. I gave my opinion on the theories and gave my counter-arguments like when i said that even if a Cerberus eats 3 Devil Fruits then it's still the same human body and if it's some ability of the Yami Yami no Mi then it's also still the same body. I only used the Gorosei's quote as a backup.

    But this theory isn't about how Devil Fruits are extracted.

    I don't think i got your point here. Do you mean he's collecting Devil Fruits ? But he's doing that for his crew as well, like in Dressrosa when he wanted Burgess to eat Mera Mera no Mi.
    Or do you mean he's building a crew of Devil Fruit users ? But how ? His first mate Burgess never had a Devil Fruit and yet he recruited him. Shiryu of the Rain has no Devil Fruit either ( i believe ) ... i don't get why you said he's collecting Devil Fruit users from around the world. More like he's recruiting crewmates and then collecting Devil Fruits for them to eat.

    I liked when you said " coincidental ". This indeed sounds suspicious. Yami Yami no Mi is the only Logia that doesn't require Armament Haki so that its user get hurt. And also cancels Devil Fruit effects. Moreover, the guy who ate it was able to eat another Devil Fruit. Suspicious.

    Thank you so much dude. You didn't offend me in any way, in fact i enjoyed reading your answer.


    Now you know why i considered Teach's internal communication with his brothers as a " major flaw " but not the biggest flaw ? Because this is the biggest flaw for this theory.

    I'm thinking about it right now. That big fat nerd Teach defected right after eating Yami Yami no Mi. So how come Marco knows about his weird body if what that means is him hiding his two brothers ?

    But what if Marco meant something else regarding Teach's body, and he thought that the weird body is what made Teach able to eat two Devil Fruits ( but he's mistaken ) ? sounds possible but i don't think so.

    One thing i wanna add to this regarding Teach's weird body. In Jaya Island, when Teach drank the booze in that bar he hated the taste of it. Outside the bar, when he drank that same booze he loved it.
     
  2. Jawahib

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    Nah, I didn't mean it like that. What I meant was in this specific case (BB), it seems there will always be pertinent information that will discredit a theory (that we already have access to). For example, I could have a theory that says "Roger's dad was a fisherman". There are no facts out there that even slightly discredit this theory; of course, not to say that makes it true at all, just that there's nothing you can do to say "this wouldn't explain this other piece of information", because we have no knowledge of Roger's father. Like, if we had heard a throwaway line anywhere in the series that said like "Roger's father once destroyed a Marine fleet" we could point to that and say "wouldn't this imply that he had incredible destructive power at his disposal and it's likely that he lived his life opposed to the Marines as, say a Pirate or Revolutionary of some kind?". It wouldn't disprove the theory at all, but it would make it much less likely. All there is to do is decide if you like the idea or not.
    The theory stands because it relies on there being no information on the matter at hand, and it does not breach any current rules in the OP world. Most theories do the same, and that's fine.

    With Blackbeard though, we're swimming in possible information and hints and it's a nigh-impossible task to connect every single one satisfactorily in any one theory. A "Yami Yami no Mi based" BB theory fails to address any change in Blackbeard's appearance, or explain his flag, or explain why Luffy and Zoro refer to him as "they" on Jaya. A "many people in one" BB theory can't cover how Blackbeard actually got the Fruit power in the first place, which leaves a gap that the other kind of theory fills. It also doesn't explain why Blackbeard is hunting down other Devil Fruit users, which I'll elaborate on in a sec. And finally, it doesn't address how coincidental it is that a DF that is said to be able to draw out other Devil Fruit abilities to nullify their power (against Ace) has nothing to do with drawing out Devil Fruit abilities from corpses to use them for himself.

    You did. The moment you say "prove" you state "I'm going to use known facts and logical conclusions to explain why anything apart from this is an impossibility". A proof cannot be argued with, cannot make any jumps, and cannot have any room for argumentation because it only draws on things that must be true. Because everything you say here ^ about it being your opinion and counter-arguments is true, it's just these things don't describe a proof, they describe an assumption, so I'm left to assume you're aware that you weren't actually proving anything despite you saying so. My only issue is your use of the word "prove".

    True, but it means it's an incomplete explanation as to how Blackbeard attained both powers. I only mentioned it because the other kind of theory does explain it. Like if you were on Yami-Yami no Mi BB thread and said "this theory doesn't explain his 'weird body'", based on your line of reasoning an appropriate response would be "but this theory isn't about Blackbeard's weird body". It's not necessarily wrong it's just ignoring a probably-pertinent fact, which harms the theory a bit.

    This is what I mean:
    "The Blackbeard Pirates are currently in the process of hunting down powerful Devil Fruit users in order to absorb their abilities.[3]" - One Piece Wiki
    This line is probably the strongest piece of evidence for the "Yami-Yami no Mi based" theories that works against "Many people in one" ones. We have no reason to believe that Jinbe's information is false (we got that wiki quote from him), so we should assume it's true. So the question is, if there are only a limited number of people, thus Devil Fruits, that Teach can maintain, why is he hunting down Devil Fruit users en masse to absorb their abilities. The way the information was given to us very strongly implies that he absorbs the abilities of the Devil Fruit users he hunts down. But this would be impossible in your theory, as he can only have 3.

    There's no way that your theory as it is can stand knowing this information. Personally the easiest way out I see for you is to say they'd round up the DF users to see if they could find one worth Teach using his third person on, and if they weren't satisfactory he'd give them to one of his own pirates (if such a thing were possible). But this would nullify your certainty that Teach already had the 3rd Fruit decided in his mind - the strongest Mythical Zoan. If he really had chosen that he would have already brought everything to bear to locate and acquire it, and not wasted time with rounding up other Devil Fruit users.

    If you'd still like to maintain your position that the quote means nothing more than Blackbeard wanting to get strong DF powers for his own captains, I'd first say that the word "absorb" heavily implies something else, then that this information would surely have been presented as Blackbeard just wanting more powerful DF users in his crew rather than hinting that BB wanted them for himself, and that really you're just ignoring any potential implication this information has to preserve your theory.

    Haha well at least something is making you second guess :P

    Glad to hear it :D
     
  3. Behnam

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    I think I understand what you want to say right now, I get it somehow... As you mention, there are many clues and evidence that we can mention when we're talking about Black Beard, and somehow they capable to explain somethings, and simultaneously they are clearly ignoring some other facts and evidence that they are solid in those parts. I understand it, and more I think about it, it becomes more obvious.

    About Black Beard crew hunting devil fruit users, I can say it can be for his own crewmates. When Teach was fighting against Ace, he did mention that he did always like to have Ace in his crew, and he specifically mentioned it he likes to have Ace and his Devil Fruit along his side. Also, when he was talking with Burgess through the Den Den Moshi, he said to Luffy that he's going to have Ace's power and he would feel like that the Ace is here with him, when Jesus Burgess eats the Devil Fruit. Although Sabo was there to prevent him from doing that.

    Burgess was at Dressrosa to eat Mera Mera no Mi, even though he didn't succeed to do that. Obviously there was no way that he could transfer the Devil Fruit to Teach, since he was far away. And Teach himself mentioned that he wants Burgess to have that power and it can be an advantage for him and his crew. Also about that absorb word I can say you would absorb a devil fruit when you eat it, what else? So with all of these things, I think it's quite probable to think that Black Beard pirates are hunting Devil Fruit users to increase their power with eating/absorbing their fruits. It can bring some advantages for then, they become more powerful and since we've already seen that Burgess did try to eat/absorb the Ace's fruit and therefore it would be a help for Black Beard pirate, we're able to say this is why they are looking for Devil Fruit users. This part itself is not a problem here, at least not with this theory. But there's another problem that comes in:

    How can they absorb their Devil Fruits?

    It's when this theory can't answer it. It should be that only Teach must be able to absorb Devil Fruits from their users, but how those other crews are supposed to do this alone? And we saw that Burgess was still trying to somehow get the Devil Fruit from Sabo, even after he did eat it. I think not even this theory, but even a Yami Yami no Mi theory can't explain this part.

    I don't see any problem with anything else, the only big problems that are somehow ignored are: 1- Weird body that's ignored in this theory 2- That question and some other questions here that you can also find it in most of the other BB theories.

    It's still possible that they are gathering Devil Fruits for Teach to eat them, since as you did mention, the way that Jinbei says it with using the word absorb it can be that. But also, it's more acceptable than you think, to say they are looking for Devil Fruit users to absorb their Devil Fruit with some unknown ways to strengthen the power of their group. And since we've already seen Burgess who was sent by Black Beard to eat and bring a new Devil Fruit and we know that Teach really likes to have new abilities for his captains, hell... who doesn't like Devil Fruits? It can make your crew much more powerful!
     
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  4. Jawahib

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    At the end of the day, there's no definitive conclusion on this point, so since you've justified pretty well the perspective that the word "absorb" can be dismissed, I don't want to draw out this particular debate, so I'll list the reasons why I think this is untrue.

    I find it ridiculous to think that Jinbe actually meant "eat" when he said "absorb", or that the words can just be used interchangeably as you've said. This has never cropped up except in this particular case of Blackbeard. No one, not even Jinbe himself, ever refers to eating a Devil as anything else. When you eat a Devil Fruit, characters will say "that person ate the x x Fruit". I have never heard "I absorbed the x x Fruit by putting a part into my mouth and swallowing". If eating a Devil Fruit was even once referred to as being "absorbed" I might consider that argument to be feasible, but it's nothing short of grasping at straws imo.

    No, the balance of probability heavily lies in the direction that "absorb" means something other than conventionally eating a Devil Fruit. So what could it mean? Well, intuitively we all turn to the Yami Yami no Mi. The Fruit which "sucks everything in", which "absorbs more damage", which can literally absorb other attacks as we see against Ace, is a far more likely source of this absorption of other Devil Fruits than anything else. I can't see how you can avoid the fact that this is the most likely explanation (not a definite explanation, but the most likely).

    This conclusion eliminates the possibility that Blackbeard simply wants Devil Fruits for his crew. If this was true, Jinbe surely would have said "Blackbeard has been hunting strong Devil Fruits for his crew". There's no way he wouldn't have known about the "for his crew" part if it were true, since Blackbeard from the beginning has sought for his chance for fame and to be feared and powerful, and his crew have relished in the spotlight placed on them since Marineford. When a BB Pirate got a new DF power, they'd make sure everyone knew, and the news would spot the trend that this was a deliberate effort to strengthen the BB pirates by giving the higher-ups strong DF powers, and this would be common knowledge throughout the world.

    So, what's left for us to assume? We've said that the most likely course of action is that BB could "absorb" Devil Fruits by some power of the Yami Yami no Mi, and that these Devil Fruits are not for his crew. The conclusion is that the Yami Yami no Mi is being used by Teach to gain himself more Devil Fruit abilities. But isn't this impossible? Doesn't someone die when they consume more than one? What makes Teach the exception? Well, it would be much, much harder to answer these questions if we hadn't already seen that Teach could take on more than one Devil Fruit after Whitebeard's death, and the simplest answer to these questions would be "there is a power of the Yami Yami no Mi that allows its eater to absorb and control more than one Devil Fruit ability".

    The example of Whitebeard tells us a couple more things about this, being:
    - This absorption is possible after the death of that Devil Fruit eater
    - This absorption takes a certain amount of time (around 30secs to memory)

    So, by starting from Jinbe's line alone and backtracking to Whitebeard's death, we arrive at a Yami Yami no Mi theory for his DF powers. Of course it's not bulletproof, but it follows a series of reasonable assumptions to reach that conclusion.
    This is the only part of your arguments that I take issue with. We know that Teach extracts Devil Fruits from corpses, since Whitebeard had already died when Teach got to work. So this isn't a problem for a Yami Yami no Mi theory. Burgess would simply need to kill Sabo and ship the body back to Teach.

    "But", I hear you say, "Dressrosa and Punk Hazard explained that Devil Fruits return to a Fruit when their eaters die, so the corpses would need to be newly departed like Whitebeard was for it to work". This is almost certainly true, and I agree with it, but it's not that much harder to say that Burgess would simply need to capture Sabo and take the body back to Teach to harvest the DF power. Either way, the Yami Yami no Mi is doing all the heavy lifting.
     
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  5. Behnam

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    When I heard that sentence, the first thing that came to my mind was that they are gathering those devil fruits for Black Beard and I accept that it's quite probable. Although later we saw that Black Beard sent Burgess to Dressrosa for getting Mera Mera no Mi, and Black Beard didn't want it for himself. He clearly did mention that he wants Burgess to eat it. And it's obvious if you look at it again. Now... if Black Beard was actually giving orders to his crews to find Devil Fruit users and bring them to him, because he can absorb more Devil Fruits, then how can he ignore such a powerful Devil Fruit (Mera Mera no Mi) and give it to his captain? If this was the case, he should order Burgess to get the Devil Fruit and bring it to him, not to order him to eat it. Now this part is a problem if we think Black Beard did want all those Devil Fruits for himself, since if he was going for that purpose, why would he let his captain to eat it? According to what you say, he wants them for himself, since he can have more than one Devil Fruit at the same time, according to what Yami Yami no Mi theorists say.

    Now I know it's possible to explain that. We can say that he's making his crew more powerful and at the same time he can absorb some strong devil fruits, I see no problem with it. And it sounds a good explanation. Though still it won't change the fact that there will be new discussions here about that, and that we just can't say it's the best choice we have and we would reach the conclusion that he can really use more than one devil fruit at the same time. For example, still it's not reasonable for me, that Teach would let his captain eat this strong fruit (Mera Mera no Mi), if he was really absorbing devil fruits and could use more than one devil fruit, why would he ignore such a great power? Mera Mera no Mi... I know we can't ignore this great clue about him here, but still I don't think it can be a great help for Yami Yami no Mi theorists about Black Beard, or also hurt more than one person theorists about Black Beard so much. It's just too vague to discuss it since as I mentioned, it's not as simple or easy as you think it is. But one thing is certain, it is an important quote that we have here, we can't ignore it.

    But I accept that the word absorb would be more likely to have that meaning. Although still it won't change the fact that it's possible to refer to it as eat, since when you're eating the devil fruit, you will have the power and literally you've absorbed the power of that Devil Fruit, you've gained it. Still anyone would remember Black Beard the moment they see the word absorb in One Piece. We have it in this side, and the other side we know that it's completely necessary for his captains to become stronger, since as we've seen, they are not quite adorable in fights. The Devil Fruits would be the best choice to strengthen his forces, to become more powerful. And according to what we've seen in Dressrosa and Burgess, it makes it even more likely that he would want his captains to have more power.
     
  6. Juggy

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    Enjoyable discussion there guys, a really nice read. I don't want to interrupt, just to throw some observations.

    OP wiki says: "When a Devil Fruit user dies, their ability is reborn into another Fruit. Instead of growing from a plant, the ability simply regenerates inside another existing Fruit". So the DF ability is not lost after user death - it is "reincarnated" in another fruit. There should be some time gap between two moments: 1st when DF user dies and 2nd when the ability is awaken in some another fruit. My assumption is that the BB pirates blocked somehow the path for the DF spirit (lets call it spirit ok?), allowing BB to extract the ability (spirit) from WB body, by using Yami Yami no mi. Even Shiliew said: "If he fails we split" - meaning that he is aware of the plan for extraction. Also, I assume if there is a "magic mantle" that blocks the spirit, that this is the Laffitte trick/tool. He appears to be some kind of magician...

    The main issue remains - how BB could use two DF. That is why I liked twins theory, it seams plausible for DF to be used by synchronized twins. A random though - it may sound crazy, but BB could already used DF before YamiYami, or to be precise, some of the twins. To clarify - one of the brothers ate some fruit that allows him to merge with his twins, second BB than looks for the YamiYami and eats, while third brother is reserved for the GuraGura no mi. Or, BB ate some fruit that produces actual clones of himself and he carries them within the body.
     
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  7. Jawahib

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    Since we're in the realm of pure probability and opinion, I can't tell you your opinion is wrong (wouldn't want to anyway), and I have no extra information/perspectives to add save for one thing on this point. I'll just throw in that this perfectly reasonable from a character point of view. Just because Blackbeard can have all the DF powers, doesn't mean he will take them. If Blackbeard wants to be taken seriously as a Yonko, he needs his crew to grow more powerful, and since the Mera Mera has the ironic sentimental value of once belonging to Ace and is so powerful, it would make sense that Blackbeard would accede that power to his first mate. All BB'd need is one Logia for intangibility and he can get much more effective DF that have the same destructive capabilities as the Mera Mera, and he wouldn't be missing much. It makes sense that he'd also like to find some ordinary, powerful Devil Fruits that he doesn't need to extract for his crew so they can match the powers of Yonko's crews.
    But why wouldn't you go one step further and say that the Yami Fruit can also let BB use two DF? Surely if he can absorb DFs into himself he can keep them via similar means? It'd be a very incomplete power set otherwise.
    Still, the idea of Teach eating the Fruit that let him absorb the brothers and the brothers eating the other 2 is pretty cool, but of course it's up to the Admiral if he'd like to add it to his theory or not.
     
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  8. Seiryu

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    I'm gonna call you out on this one (as usual per our previous discussions). Other than the mystery of the exact mechanisms, which was purposefully left completely open-ended with the black veil, I think Oda already covered all the foundational outlines that do not conflict with any relevant points. The character design changes are likely just Oda being physically and mentally taxed (way past what most workaholics achieve). Plus, he probably included the Luffy tooth gag to give an alternative explanation (freaks of nature in the One Piece world literally heal anything).

    Ultimately, I've got a higher level of faith in Oda even with the recent signs of chinks in the previously impenetrable armor. As long as @Admiral Ryokugyu doesn't mind us going on side-tangents since it looks like we all agree on the foundational aspects.

    Definitely agree on everything else though.
     
  9. Jawahib

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    Well, I'm gonna call out your calling out :P

    Hmm, I'm trying to figure out how to reword what I meant to say to get it across more clearly. Because in your calling out you adhere to exactly what I originally meant, so from my perspective you're saying you'll disagree but then immediately supporting my opinion, which means there's a miscommunication on my part.

    When we make theories, we like to use evidence. Different evidence may point to different things depending on your interpretation of it and what you think its implications are. However, it is extremely rare that this evidence will actually be at all pertinent in the final explanation. And there's a brilliant example I have in the person of Big Mom.

    When Big Mom was first debuted (sometime during/after the Fishman Island Arc), we have a very explicit moment where we see her salivate, and that saliva bubbles on the ground much like acid. Now, at that time theorists were going crazy saying stuff along the lines of "Big Mom's got the Acid Acid Fruit, and that explains her bubbly saliva and can also be powerful enough to be a Yonko Fruit", and we the audience would go "yeah that makes perfect sense". If someone had ever gone and said after that point "Nah actually I just think the acid-y aspect will have nothing to do with her DF powers and just relates to how much candy she eats", the response would naturally have been (and I would have agreed with it), "you're just ignoring poignant evidence to maintain your position. It's far more likely that the explicitness of that shot says something significant about her DF abilities and isn't simply meant to refer to the state of her stomach acid. If Oda was really trying to show off her crazy candy-supportive metabolism, he could've done so in much more effective ways such as have her visibly eat huge amounts of candy".

    However, it turns out that that naysayer was right, even though the evidence pointed in another direction. A Soul Soul Fruit has no bearing on its eater's metabolism. It turns out that that bubbly saliva really did say nothing about Big Mom's DF abilities and more about her diet. You can consider it misdirection by Oda, but clearly something was hinted at that ended up not going down the most likely path. Oda ignored evidence that we considered to be important in his final explanation. This isn't an issue, it just means we misinterpreted something that seemed very important.

    Now, Blackbeard has so many more of these tidbits of evidence. The only true piece of evidence that Oda's explanation must satisfy is"Blackbeard has 2 DF abilities". Every other fact that's used in various theories may be entirely unrelated to how he ended up getting it. In the same Oda ignored the saliva acid, he can ignore all the things like various BB appearance changes, BB's flag, Jinbe's statement etc. We consider them important because they're all we have to go off, but Oda can do whatever he likes.

    This is what I meant when I said "There is no way that Oda's final explanation of BB will not require many contrivances and ignore some of the things that we believe to be extremely relevant." When I say contrivances I simply mean that since it's impossible to eat 2 Devil Fruits by a means we know of or can deduce must exist in the OP world, the explanation must be contrived outside those rules.
    Exactly as you say, it's entirely possible to explain away stuff like Blackbeard's appearance changing with mistakes caused by exhaustion; but we can't just ignore these things and say definitively that they're irrelevant. Some theories will, some theories won't, but until Oda comes out and says "whoops those were actually mistakes. My bad", theories are entitled to use them as evidence based on the assumption that they were deliberate. But he won't say this. His final explanation will just ignore this, and we will be left to make our own assumptions about what those once-possibly-pertinent tidbits mean. That's how it always goes, and that's how it usually should go (assuming Oda does indeed have the explanation already in mind). The writer shouldn't be bound by the speculations of theorists, and that's all I was trying to say.

    So to sum up, I'm trying to say that it's impossible for Oda to incorporate all the evidence that we as theorists on the whole consider to be important. He will undoubtedly ignore some; and it will probably lean more towards a "many people in one" explanation or a "Yami Yami no Mi based" explanation in the end.
     
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  10. Yuuzume

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    I haven't really checked out recent theories or posts on them,but this seems like a good time to get back on the train.I apologize for intruding in the conversation uninvited.The main reason why I decided to do so is because I saw Jawa's ( @Jawahib ) comments.I appreciate everyone's comments on theories since they offer their own unique pespective,but forgive me for favoring two people's comments in my humble opinion.Jawa's and @Booker 's comment on theories are actually compliments on the those theories by themselves and I enjoy them the most.I'm not being ironic of course,I'm being completely honest.It's actually quite hard to imagine the forum without you two,so thank you both for your opinions.Anyway,sorry for all the small talk,I'll now get right to the point and address one or two points myself.

    @Behnam Just one quick mentioning of a possible reason why Teach would want Burgess to eat Ace's fruit.It may had seemed like Teach was being ironic to Ace at first,but his invitation (and apparently fondness) was probably quite sincere on Teach's part.That hints that a possible reason as to why Teach would want Burgess to eat Ace's fruit is mere sentimentality.That's only as far as Ace's fruit goes,I'll get to the ability stealing part later.

    @Jawahib The reason why I like this theory and why I want it,or a similar one,to be proven correct (not believe,want),is because it would explain Teach's physical appearance.Behny seems to be putting a lot of importance in Teach's pirate flag.He's not wrong,but let's recall a certian flag for a bit,Doflamingo's.Now,I won't say that Doffy's wasn't grinning most of the time,like the flag suggested,but it doesn't represent him unless he had a scar on his face that I didn't see.In short,a pirate flag is can be anything and doesn't necessarily have to represent the captain of the crew.The flag isn't really important for me,but the physical changes of Teach are.I haven't seen a theory except this one even go as far as touching that subject,much less try to explain it.Of course,those changes could simply be the momentary deterioration of Oda's health at the time,like Seiryu has said,but I'm going to believe that it was meant to be liek this unless Oda himself says otherwise (like you have said yourself).Teach was seen without several Teeth in moments that didn't justify him losing them (like Luffy's tooth in WCI),so it was hinted at first that he has been missing those for a long time.So,unless the physical changes actually mean nothing or the Gura-Gura no mi has the side effect of complete dental restoration,then those changes probably go hand in hand with an explanation.Whether or not that explanation ends up being Admiral Ryokugyu's theory is something debattable and I actually don't mind either way,as long as the explanation is proper,but kudos to him for touching and even trying to explain the aspect of Teach that are those physical changes.

    You also mentioned aspects of Teach like "how the abilities are absorbed".Ever since watching the Marinefold war arc and hearing Marco saying those words about Teach,I've been a fan of the opinion that Teach's special body is how he houses more than one ability and that the Yami-Yami no mi is how he steals those abilities.In that aspect,you're right since this theory does not touch that subject.That fact however,does not disprove or endanger what Admiral has assumed in any way,it just makes this an incomplete theory if you look at Teach's case as a whole.Based on the series of facts of Teach waiting for years to find that certain fruit,to him killing a crew member for it and wanting it despite the fact that it doesn't make him intangible,I believe that the darkness fruit is responsible for the stealing of devil fruit abilities.Admiral's theory is about the other half of Teach's case,which is how he houses those abilities,his special body.So you're in right in that the half that is the way Teach steals powers should have been mentioned to have a complete theory about Teach,but it doesn't affect the other half that is the way he houses them in his body.

    Last but not least,let's briefly mention why Teach is going around hunting devil fruit users.As we can't ignore the word "absorb",we also can't ignore the fact that it says "The Blackbeard Pirates..." hinting that it's not just Teach himself or the fact that it was Burgess himself who said he would "take" Luffy's ability at Dressrosa,and not take it for Teach.But in either case,it'd actually be good if someone with knowledge of the Japanese language took a look at the original japanese text.The reason for that is because there are probably several translations of it.Here's a picture of one of them that does not even mention the word "absorb".
    p_00009.png.jpeg

    I think that's about it.Apologies again for intruding,and thanks for letting me read such excellent comments Jawa and Behny.
     
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  11. Jawahib

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    @Yuuzume glad you liked my comment. Was really worried I'd get a bit of backlash for being a hater, but looks like those fears were unfounded (as yet :P )

    Everything you say is great and there's nothing for me to add, but I would like to quickly address this:
    I think the best objective course of action on our part is to refer to the wiki. I'm certain that such a high-profile page like Blackbeard's would be heavily policed by all kinds of language experts, and as it stands they use the word "absorb". In fact, (and I know the wiki isn't flawless so this isn't definitive by any stretch), the wiki assumes that Teach has acquired more DF abilities using this absorption thing, so it seems biased against this theory and others like it. Every Japanese-English speaker can give a different translation of the chapter, but the wiki is actively changed and criticised heavily and frequently after crowdsourcing, so unless an official translation is released and contradicts the wiki (I'm certain the wiki would instantly adapt to any official translations anyway), I'm sticking with the wiki.
     
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  12. Yuuzume

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    Hehehe,I remember Booker thinking the same thing once.I can't really speak for anyone other than myself,but I greatly appreciate constructive critisism,so no worries at all as far as I'm concerned.Or rather,my conversations on theories with you both have been quite fun so it's actually something to even look forward to.

    I don't disagree with sticking with the wiki of course.If anything,I agree on that end,just mentioning alternatives for the sake of being thorough.Though for this particular subject,even considering that the direct translation is "absorb",I would still say that the hunt is for the sake of Teach's crew actually.I've already mentioned that I believe the darkness fruit is responsible for the stealing of abilities.Assuming we agree on that,then either the abilities end up with Teach or his crew,they have to go through Teach at some point in both cases.Of course,that would involve the darkness fruit also being able to bestow the things that Teach has absorbed with a technique similar to one he has used before (Liberation).

    Having said that,I would actually be inclined to believe that the abilities would end up with Teach if it weren't for one thing.That thing is none other than the weakness of his crew.Teach's special body may have created an unprecended occurence by allowing him to use more than one devil fruit,but the abilities of the darkness fruit haven't changed sincethe past.That goes to say,a "devil fruit user" crew that was the result of ability hunting has been possible for the user of the darkness fruit since the fruit was first created.However,there hasn't been a hint that such an army had been created in the past,that hints to Teach collecting all those abilities for himself.But then there is the aforementioned weakness.I'm inclined to believe that Luffy's final opponent will be relevant to the WG and not be Teach,but Teach is no pushover himself.No matter how strong he himself gets,there is no point if his crew isn't up to par.I mean,I can't picture Luffy and Teach fighting it out while Luffy's crew eats pop corn on top of improvised chairs that are the fainted bodies of the already beaten members of Teach's crew.
     
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  13. Behnam

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    #113 Behnam, Jul 28, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2018
    The reason why I think the flag is so much important, is really obvious. You can look around, and find all of those Jolly Rogers in One Piece. And all of them somehow are showing information or telling us something about their captain. You mentioned the Dolfamingo's flag, I still see it related to Doflamingo, because his grin is something that nobody can forget, it's somehow a part of his personality. He grins when he's angry, and most of times we see him with that grin on his face. We know he's the Joker, he can fly and he's really the representative of Joker in playing card, his madness is beyond everything.

    Let's look at them and compare them:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    About that line I don't know what it is to be honest, but I'm sure it's not just there by coincidence, that grin is what we can always find on Doffy's face. Now even if we say: “Alright, that flag is not representing Doffy” still it's hard to deny all of these flags and their similarity with their captains:

    White Beard
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Red hair
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Straw Hat
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    And all those other Jolly Rogers in One Piece, you can see all of them here. It's something that I can be sure about, every flag in One Piece is somehow a representative for a trait/appearance of the captain of that ship, and with looking at most of them we can figure out that they are showing the captain. It's something really clear for me right now. Now let's look at Jolly Roger of Black Beard, and let's think that what's the similarity between this:

    [​IMG]

    And this:

    [​IMG]

    I see none... his personality and his appearance, none of those two can explain this flag. And if you say: “Flag? Nothing has to do with BlackBeard, just something random” then I'd say sorry it's not acceptable at all. It's the only thing I can't ignore here because with seeing most of those flags, you can figure out the similarity between the captain and it, and the other flags require time to understand it. So this flag must be representing the captain who's Black Beard, and sorry I see absolutely no similarity between that Jolly Roger and him. There must be something, no need to be this theory though, as long as there's an explanation behind the flag, that's one of the most important clues we have, I'd say no problem. But somehow this theory is capable to completely explain it. And it really does it well. The reason why I think the other reasons can be just coincidence, because a person can always make some drawing mistakes (Though about teeth, it's hard to say that, but still possible to say it), but when we're talking about Jolly Rogers, it's so much hard to say No it's just something random and nothing else I'd never accept it, according to all of those Jolly Rogers that we've seen until now.

    Those other evidence that we have here, will be there to improve this theory, I never say they are useless. But the thing is that in my opinion, they are just making this theory reasonable and possible, also some of them would make it probable, but this one is the part I think would make it really hard to deny. That's why I think if not whole of this theory, some parts of it would come out true.

    Also, let me mention something here about New Fishman Pirates and their flag:

    [​IMG]

    As we can see, it's explaining that they hate humans, and humanity should die. It's the belief of the captain and also the crew. But it's representing the beliefs of that pirate group, not only the captain. But when we're talking about pirates on the sea, most of them are recognisable. And the others are more complicated to understand in the first look. Still... All of them are representing the beliefs/appearances/personality of the captain/group with no exception. And most of them, let's say like more than 90% of the Jolly Rogers that we've seen, are showing the appearance or the personality of the captain. And in this case, most of them are showing the appearance.

    Now something interesting about the New Fishman Pirates' flag is that line. We also can see it in Doffy's flag. We know that it means no to humanity in this flag, but what about the Doffy's flag? We know that it's not a scar, and we also know that Doffy and the ones who made it, didn't just put it randomly there (I mean Oda), but when we look at Law's flag, something becomes clear:

    [​IMG]

    Since Law was in Doffy's crew at sometime, it's him who did inspire this flag from Doffy's flag. But we can see some shapes around it, and there's no line there, not anymore. Also there's a nose, and no horizontal line to make it look like a grin. I say it, because I wouldn't think that line was a scar if I'd give attention to that flag, that I did never give after seeing it.

    I don't say those other clues are something that we can ignore, if there was only a flag, there would be no way to see this theory plausible. But when we just put it alongside the others, it's one of those evidence that's harder to give another explanation for it, but for the others you can find another explanation, though still compared to the flag, they are less probable.

    By the way, it's good to have you here @Yuuzume
     
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  14. Yuuzume

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    Thanks for the kind words Behny ( @Behnam ).It's true that the flag represents the appearance of the captain in most cases,but that's not true in all.I would still regard Doffy's flag as an example actually,but let's forget that,let's take Law's flag as an example.It doesn't represent his appearance,his personality or his ambition.So as long as there has been been precedence of an exception,the scenario of Teach's flag being another one should be considered.
     
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  15. General Zoro

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    The flag is very important.
    Doffy's flag is a result of his childhood trauma. And his inherent personality. He is a sadist who wants to see the world in turmoil while he laughs. That is the essence of a smiling face that is crossed out.
    Law tries to mirror Doffy as as opposite as that is how he identifies with Corazon. Which is why his is a smile as it is how he remembers Corazon.
    So, Blackbeard's flag is an important part of any theory that is to be brought forward.

    Also, another reason I see this theory as more valid than others is history.
    In the 800 years of the World Government, they will know almost everything. When the Grossei said no one eats two devil fruits, it will be because someone has tried it and died. The history they have preserved through that time is not guess work. There is a book about all devil fruits and their basic abilities. Sanji read about the invisible fruit from it and Teach read about the Dark fruit from it. However, I don't believe the dark fruit has the ability to absorb another devil fruit and be used simultaneously and the Grossei will not know about it in 800 years where it would have been used by more than one person.
    That is why I believe Teach is using the natural abilities of the fruits and using it in an innovative way not using a direct ability of the fruit.
    Therefore, this theory of three brothers explain both the flag and the surprise of the Groisei on Teach using two devil fruits. And it also explains the minor details like Teach liking and not liking sake, the missing and non missing teeth and the rings and such. Those can be explained away as mistakes but the flag is a meticulous clue that Oda will never mistake and so is the information of the Grossei.
     
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  16. Seiryu

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    @Jawahib Ah, I was thinking micro-picture with just Blackbeard vs. macro with the entire devil fruit world. I do think that there is still an underlying disagreement though (just based on my micro analyzing posts). My bias is that Oda has a very detailed plan, but has kept the mechanics open so that he has the major options previously discussed. My interpretation of your bias is more along the lines of Oda having a broad outline and deciding a majority of details at a later date. So I do think we disagree on how concrete/thorough a plan Oda has established in terms of what he plans to do.

    Essentially I fully expect that Oda has a few main options and has the revelation scene planned out for all of the options. Because Oda does care about how the fans react, he is keeping his options open to go with the more impactful. Oda knows full well that people overanalyze, which is exactly why he loves putting so much detail into every character. However, most people get tied up on details that are solely for character development. Oda will leave a trace of breadcrumbs, but they are relatively few in number. That Big Mom example is probably a perfect example of people overreacting to a perfect detail on Big Mom's gluttony. Thankfully I don't remember seeing that sort of discussion here.

    I of course completely agree on the aspect of only having the manga content as the main theory source. Oda is pretty much guaranteed to not apologize for it unless it comes up in a SBS (he's apologized for other minor mistakes in the past). But just like anything else, inside info will always give an edge.
    Other's have mentioned it already, but I will reference what you stated a little later in your post on how the beauty is getting other's opinions and getting to see things in a different light. So definitely no need to apologize.

    I am kind of curious about the "absorb" aspect. Is this solely based on the wiki page? If there was a chapter, I could check the raw. From memory, "absorb" was not used to describe the ability hunt. So I would disagree that the wiki page is inaccurate if they are using "absorb" as their word choice. Other than the page your referenced, the only other info we got was Burgess giving a bit of inside info during Dressrosa. I know for sure, Oda was his usual self on purposefully using vague/broad terms to keep all theories/options open (per the above bias that Oda used to love the cat/mouse game, until he stopped being able to win recently).
     
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  17. Jawahib

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    In fairness I never actually stated my expectation of Oda's plan design: merely that it's impossible for him to use every sliver of data that fan theorists do. I actually agree with you. I think Oda's got a solid idea in place for Blackbeard's new power. I don't think he would have ever attempted something as potentially world-breaking as a character eating 2 Devil Fruits unless he already had a very clear explanation as to why he is seemingly the only exception. So yeah I guess there's not much room for discussion if we both agree :D

    I am, however, curious as to how your research into that 'absorb' comment will go. Unless it was clearly meant to translate to something that implied Blackbeard was collecting Devil Fruits for his crew members, I don't think it'll change my mind though.
     
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  18. Seiryu

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    I can go back to the raw text and translate the word in question (if someone wants to give me a chapter number). Unless I'm forgetting something, we only have the Jinbei and Burgess conversations. I guess the mime-guy gave a one-liner after Blackbeard comes out during the Summit War, but that was another case of purposefully vague word choice. The only one I can't remember as clearly was Jinbei's explanation.
     
  19. Behnam

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    @Seiryu You live in Japan and also speak Japanese right? Hence, it won't be so much of a problem to gather those chapters and check the original version (Japanese version) of them. And see what Kanji is used to describe that verb. Then you can post it here and give the accurate translation for it. The number of the chapter is 650 by the way.
    [​IMG]

    The words that's used in English translations are obtain and acquire, which means to get.

    This: “The Blackbeard Pirates are currently in the process of hunting down powerful Devil Fruit users in order to absorb their abilities.” though, is explanation of the one who has written the during time skip part in Marshall D. Teach's page. But using the verb absorb would make some misunderstandings as we can see. But we should not forget that the one who did say it, is Wikia and a group of people who're gathering this great information there. So it's possible that they would describe it with different words, since they are not Oda, though still it's not acceptable I'd say. I still appreciate those all other information there. Also let's not forget that every Wikia page, works like Wikipedia, you can always edit any post, though there are some bots to assure that you won't ruin it. As you can see I can edit this part right now:
    [​IMG]
    Now tell me @Jawahib , can we trust every single thing in Wikia to be accurate since any person, no matter who, can always edit any post of it, no matter what. Obviously when we want to talk about these details like what term is used to describe what, we can't trust it completely, since it's just outside of the quote and clearly it's the explanation that the unknown person behind that text is giving to us. Now I know it's possible that someone who's Japanese and really cares about that term would have extracted it from the Japanese version, but it's still possible that someone just wrote his own explanation. And if you ask me, I'd not go into details and talk about how this action is used, and I can agree on that if it was used in Manga and by Oda, since during all of these years, he's been using a specific term to describe that. And using absorb would be really a clue, and impossible to ignore. But when we're talking about ourselves, and the fans who are giving explanations to it, I see no problem if someone describe the acquiring a Devil Fruit, with absorb. It's just about the person who uses these terms, and if Oda would describe as absorb from the first moment of the series until now, any other word would make a misunderstanding or maybe a real clue, when we're talking about Oda, coincidences happen rarely. Now we know that when we want to talk about details like this, Wikia is not a appropriate source, though still if the absorb word was inside of a quote, and it's really an important word to be honest, it was going to imply that it's from Manga and not the personal explanation of the writer of that post.

    I'm not completely sure if it's absorb or acquire. But as I know, every English translation that I could find, was translating it as acquire. I just checked 2 or 3 different translations. Now if you know a translation that's using absorb it's good to search for it and mention it here. But still the most appropriate source and the one that we can trust, is the Japanese version. Seiryu can easily answer it with checking the chapter.

    I'll be waiting for @Seiryu . To know what Kanji is used to describe that action. Does it mean acquire, obtain, get, take the ability or absorb?
     
  20. Jawahib

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    Yes. This is an age-old argument that died like 10-15 years ago when teachers were saying "you shouldn't trust Wikipedia because anyone can edit it". These online encyclopedias are heavily moderated in order to retain a reputation of accuracy and credibility. If you change/add a sentence for a laugh, it will not last more than an hour or two - a day at the very most. Just about every sentence is sourced, so you know that what they've written is based off analysis of that source.

    Forget the word "absorb". Even if it was "get" or "acquire" or "take" as your above screenshot says, it achieves the same effect in condemning "many people in one theories". Somehow, the Blackbeard Pirates have managed to, for the first time in history (that we know of), find a way to farm Devil Fruits by collecting Devil Fruit users. If such a thing were possible within the normal scope of Devil Fruit rules, it would have beyond reasonable doubt already been utilised by the World Government/Marines to obtain absolute power (which we know their goal is). We are left to assume that the most probable explanation is that this Devil Fruit acquisition involves something unique to Blackbeard, who, also for the first time in history, has wielded 2 Devil Fruits at once, and that these two feats are connected. Unless you mean to theorise that Blackbeard's means of extracting DFs out of corpses is entirely unrelated to his means of extracting a DF out of Whitebeard's corpse.

    Now, given this assumption, we realise that the theory that Blackbeard's method of acquiring 2 Devil Fruits via some physiological property that's unique to him and impossible to duplicate (e.g. Cerberus, having a naturally 'weird body', or absorbing triplets) has just decreased dramatically. If he can't duplicate his unique properties (unless he hands out weird bodies to everyone), he cannot duplicate the results in other people. A theory that says he can undergo the process of extracting Devil Fruits via his own Devil Fruit power is faar more tractable and receptive of this information.

    If nothing else, that information punctures this particular theory in my opinion. There's no room in this cool idea of Blackbeard absorbing triplets to accommodate a method to extract more DFs from other people and give them to his crew or himself. Again, you can say "but this theory isn't about how Blackbeard extracts Devil Fruits out of other people", but that would be ignoring information that is almost certainly pertinent in order to preserve your theory. It's clear that this extraction happens, and that it's unique to the Blackbeard pirates, and that the Blackbeard pirates are the only ones in living memory (given Jinbe says "little is known of how") to perform such a thing. The only way that a "many people in one" theory can survive in light of this information is to effectively say "nah it's just a coincidence".
     
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