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Devil Fruits and Blackbeard's Power

Discussion in 'One Piece Theories' started by Jawahib, Jun 18, 2018.

  1. Jawahib

    Both Exotic and Professor
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    Because Blackbeard threads have been becoming popular again, I figured I'd repost my old one from the Forumpiece days, mainly to share it with you all and discuss but also so I can have it on this account if I want to refer to it later (took me a decent while in the archives to find it).

    This theory ties in very closely with my theories on how souls work in the world of One Piece, so while it's not strictly necessary to understand this thread, I definitely recommend you check it out here.
    Anyway, below, lies the [slightly edited] thread from 4 years ago:

    Wasn't sure whether to call this a theory or opinion, but I suppose it's the content that matters more.

    Well, anyway, what I'm about to write is nothing that you haven't heard from me, and most of the content can be found scattered about my posts (and others') on the forum. I'll still write this thread with the assumption that you haven't heard anything I've had to say on this topic. As some people seem to think the same way I do, and there hasn't really been a thread like this as yet, I figured I might as well just make one.:)

    So, straight to business. Devil Fruits are one of the most curious items I've come across in Manga. We've heard many things about them, some of them even contradictory with each other, but we have essentially all the information regarding them save for two points:
    • How do Devil Fruits work?
    • Where do they originate?
    I'm only going to focus on the first question, as there are countless theories on this forum that attempt to answer the second. How do they work? We've been given quite a bit of data about them, however often there are shady hints dropped here or there that are often difficult to accept at face value. I will refer to a few things I can remember about them that were said a lot earlier in the series, and use this to explain my reasoning.

    In the anime's first and second episodes, Alvida and Captain Morgan both comment on the rarity of Devil Fruits, and hint that there was more to delve into regarding them in the Grand Line. Morgan even said that he wasn't sure they existed, and believed them to be a myth until he met Luffy. We were led to assume by this point that these two shared the general perspective of the public - or at least the residents of East Blue, and that this at the time was the truth. I think that Oda at the time (and maybe even currently) still had not devised everything about the limitations of the Devil Fruit, because this statement is strongly contradicted later. For one thing, it is almost certain that the public would have a basic knowledge of a Devil Fruit and how they may impact them. Insignificant Marines have had Devil Fruit powers, and same with a wide variety of pirates that have appeared throughout the story of One Piece. Bounties which the public receive weekly/monthly also make certain nick-names displayed, quite often ones that heavily indicate that a pirate wields tremendous power (e.g. Fire Fist Ace). Smoker who was the same rank as Morgan was not only a Devil Fruit user - but a DF user of the strongest category, meaning that either Oda hadn't thought of the regularity of DF's at the beginning, or that Morgan was heavily under-educated.

    That was probably irrelevant, but I want to reinforce the idea that there is the possibility that Oda may have not yet decided on what I'm about to guess at, so this is more of an idea that covers all the facts that we have been given so far. The source of my information will be Spandam's explanation to CP-9 in this theory. Spandam explains that if you eat two devil fruits, the residing devils will combat each other and kill the host in the process. To me, this hints at a whole lot of things, and I will begin my theory pretty much just using that information, as well as a few other facts here and there that support this.

    So, as Spandam suggests, I believe that there is a semi-sentient being that inhabits each devil fruit known only as a 'devil'. These beings seem to be the largest force behind the changes in an eater, and they also seem to have a hatred of each other. These devils don't seem to have any desires of their own, and do not seem to have played any role at all in the plot save for their contribution to Devil Fruit abilities. They are usually docile, and I say they are semi-sentient as they seem to be aware of the process involved in altering a host's body, knowing that they hate their own kind, and do not have any sense of awareness or self-identity - similar to PX-0's single-minded processing.

    Now there's the question of what the devil does. It will spend most of its life inside a fruit that innately changes upon its inhabiting it, and then transfers to a sentient host when the host eats it. I think it is interesting that the devil will behave quite differently when it inhabits a human or fruit. A fruit will simply change shape and colour, while a human will gain all the powers the devil boasts of providing. Clearly it recognises a difference, and perhaps finds a fruit far more accommodating than other inanimate objects likely due to the ease in which they can be changed. Vegapunk's method for making a DF activate its abilities in other inanimate objects may contradict this notion, however, as you may argue that there clearly must be another factor that will make a devil awaken under different circumstances, however I can only guess that Vegapunk simulates a human's system inside the object and it will activate there. I'll probably edit this once we discover the means that VP uses to make objects ingest DF's, because I'm almost certain that this theory can adapt to suit whatever Oda can think of.

    This is where I need to get all technical. Before I begin this part, I should mention that I believe that there is a key significance of a soul and body in the OP world, and I wrote a whole thread about it already :p. Now, I believe that in the One Piece world, Oda has made it so that every living person has a soul that inhabits the body. It isn't the brain as such, but a soul that provides the consciousness and voice. This is mostly backed up in the character of Brook (more info in my souls thread), whose soul allows him to talk and be conscious without a voice box. I believe that a devil is only interested in its host's body. The devil will only alter the eater's body, but his soul is left unpolluted by its presence. This explains a variety of things, such as why Haki makes no difference whether one is a DF eater or not, or why Logia types can still be sentient although their brains have become an element.

    Now, there is also the question of what exactly the devil does to the eater's body. I have no deadset theories on this, but an idea I can think of is that the devils have all the power that they give, and they infuse their essence into their eaters and alter their bodies. It's not exactly that the devils provide the power, but that they are the power behind all the powers. They simply give an eater full control over the power they provide. Think of it more as Ace not making fire, but Ace telling the obedient devil to make fire instantaneously. Maybe more the devil can read their hosts minds and then obey the wills of their eaters. '

    As Blackbeard's Devil fruit and the question of how he obtained two powers is relevant to this topic, I will include my thoughts on how he obtained WB's DF.

    Going off what he says to Ace that he sucks in DF powers, I believe that when he does this, he forces the devil out of the host until their contact is broken. I personally thought that the change was permanent until I saw Ace using his powers again, which had me thinking that the devil would be (voluntarily or involuntarily I don't know) confined to their host so that they are not separated until death. Now I'm also considering the possibility that he could have sucked the devil right out of Ace if he had the time to do so, probably killing Ace in the process. I don't know if this ability allows him to remove devils from their fruits either in a non-harmful way.

    Now when it comes to how he got WB's power and other peoples', I have a few ideas. We don't know exactly why the curtain was put up around WB, but a petty way for Oda to hide the process from us without any other reason does not seem very likely at all. I would also like to comment on the fact that the curtain was black. One of my ideas is that BB threw the curtain to confuse or trap the newly-released devil so that he could absorb it, and the dark curtain would compliment this. I could only explain the time it took him as either him quickly searching for it in the curtain and quickly absorbing it or taking a long time to absorb it.

    There is also the idea which i think is less likely, and that's that WB's lost devil immediately became a fruit and BB sucked it in with his ability.
    I don't think it has anything to do with the Will of D, because it can't be a coincidence that BB can suck in DF powers with his ability and also obtain two of them because of two unrelated facts.

    In case anyone points it out, I also think that BB's devil is superior to other's, explaining why many can reside in the same body, and that this is one of the other perks that comes with the disadvantage of not becoming intangible.

    Hope you liked this thread, and I think I should be sorry that it's another long one that has no pictures :p. Let's see what you guys think.
     
  2. Behnam

    The one who wants CHOIce
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    I really enjoyed reading this. Your writing ability is really impressive, I can say. Personally I'd agree with you in many parts of this theory. I haven't read the other posts of you, since I'm quite new here. Therefore, I'm not honored by reading those threads at that time. I assure you that I'll look at them.

    I think it's not really appropriate to expect Oda to make an organized One Piece at the first moments of the series. Obviously, I don't think he was planning to make everything perfect at that time. Therefore, there may be some antithesis about the ranks, or personalities or anythings else. One Piece is a story with huge amount of stories and chapters, it's hard to make it perfect in that way. I think Oda had a ideology of Devil Fruits and a base idea that he started with it, but he didn't make it a perfect system without problem or irregularity.

    About Morgan, I think being in the east blue itself can be a proof for his ignorance about Devil Fruits. But we have Smoker there who himself has a Devil Fruit, and his Devil Fruit is a Logia type, the most powerful type of Devil Fruits. Obviously, I think Smoker was there, at Loguetown for some personal reasons, maybe because it was the home of Gol D Roger, and he thought he can find something there or anything similar to that. It's also possible that he was spending his time there because he didn't want to face those powerful pirates of Grand Line or New World. Maybe he wanted to be more comfortable at that time. But suddenly, Luffy appear and everything changes and he decides to go back and search for him. Though I wouldn't go with this possibility.

    I think it's not acceptable to expect Oda to make One Piece and everything in it, such as Devil Fruits, perfect and without any irregularity. I agree with you that he may have no complete idea about their popularity and fame among different seas or maybe he wanted to have Smoker, so he had no choice.

    It's really possible and even probable here. I personally think that Oda wouldn't make Devil Fruits something related to science in that way. I think he'd go with different side and give Devil Fruits some awareness or something similar to that. Now it can be something sentient here and they may feel and react physically or mentally to some specific actions.

    Brook's Devil Fruit and also Big Mom's can be an evidence that One Piece system works in this case. So, why wouldn't Devil Fruit work like that too? So we can be sure about this, according to those two persons with their abilities.

    There is also mentioned, in Dressrosa arc that after the death of the user, Devil Fruit quits the user's body and the soul of the devil fruit infuse itself, to another Fruit. That's what you call “Devil”, the essence of Devil Fruits and that's can also be called “The soul of the Devil Fruits”. It's really similar to human. Their soul can leave their body and find another body to infuse itself in it.

    [​IMG]

    So that soul, or in other words, that “Devil” must have some feelings or understanding to go and find another Fruit for that purpose. Obviously, when we talk about a soul, it contains awareness with itself. It's also true about humans.

    I think it's an important thing that you've mentioned here. The Devil or the soul of the Devil Fruits can obviously identify its host. Like if it was an inanimate object as you've said, it'd do nothing and when a human eats it, it can give different abilities to its user, or in other words, to its host. Also, I wanted to mention that part about infusing Devil Fruit's powers in inanimate objects by the genius of this age, Vegapunk. Nice that you pointed this out here. I think it's possible for Oda to change these happenings according to his want for this purpose. But still it's going to be a huge problem here. We can't answer it now with this theory that the Devil may recognize its host and somehow react to it if it's a human or an animal.

    I personally think, that the science can manipulate natural events and use them as its own benefit. We inspire our weapons, buildings and devices from nature. We make somethings even better and with much more abilities than it. So it's always a way for using nature and natural happenings someway different than its real process and we will reach the results that can provide us what we wanted, but in different shapes, with different ways, but with the same result. I think it's really possible that Vegapunk would be able to do such things. Because we're talking about science and a man who can develop humanity in a really short time.

    I think so, Brook has an evidence in this way. As you have mentioned, One Piece must work like that, no brain or something similar to these kind of stuffs. A body that contains the soul of the person in it. And those two are explainable with this way, as you said. But something there is something that I want to add: Is it possible that the soul of the Devil Fruits tries to control the soul of the user? Or in other words, is it possible that a Devil Fruit is not only interested in the body of the user, but the soul of the user becomes more interesting for it and it tries to possess it? I think if the essence of Devil fruits, Devil or the soul of them somehow needs a host or a body to remain in, and stay alive, then it must be sensitive to some happenings. It will react to them. But is it also possible that it may be evolved in these years and it finally tries to go further?

    So you say that these Devil, can provide their eaters, their wishes and wants? Isn't it limited to a specific range of abilities for every Devil Fruit? I mean, if they can provide every wills of them, then a person would do anything with using a one Devil Fruit. Maybe every Devil Fruit can provide a specific range of abilities for its user and he/she can desire it, and the Devil read it and make it truth.

    I think, the moment when the soul of the Devil Fruit infuse itself to the soul of the user and becomes a one soul that's combined with those two and contains the soul of the Devil Fruit and the soul of the user, it means that the Devil is exactly the eater and the eater is it. It means when two become one, it means both of them are something specific after the combination of their souls. And it means the eater will have the ability itself to control or manipulate whatever that Devil could do. More specifically, the eater becomes the Devil after eating the Devil Fruit. And since the Devil is only interested in the body, as you said, it wouldn't show itself so much in the personality and actions of the user, or in the soul of him/her. It's like, they become one, but one focuses on other parts, like body of the user and the user's original soul acts the same as before, because it focuses on personality of the user. But it's a possibility, though I don't think that's the answer, because I believe it's a combination of souls that can't affect the eater's soul so much and change it.

    It's quite possible that Black Beard be able to force the Devil Fruit's soul to come out of the user's body. Because we know that already that Darkness can absorb anything. I believe that Black Beard can easily force anything and absolutely anything to come out of a certain range and then unload it somewhere. It can be physical body of a person, the soul of him, an object, a building or even a Devil Fruit or even maybe its soul.

    This point that the curtain is black, can obviously imply this fact that it must be related to the way he brought the Devil Fruit out of the eater's body. It can be possible that he forced the Devil Fruit's soul to come out of the body quickly after the death of the user, with using his Yami Yami no Mi's abilities. Because we know that this process takes time to be done and it requires special abilities, like Yami Yami no Mi Devil Fruit for that.

    I don't think a Devil Fruit would become a Fruit immediately. It takes time and when Doflamingo found Ace's Fruit, it was like 2 years after the death of him. First, the soul comes out of the body of the user and then tries to find another fruit to infuse itself in it as its host. And then it takes some time for that process to become a real Devil Fruit. I don't know how much though, but I'm sure it wouldn't immediately become visible after the death of the user.

    And I myself don't think it'd do anything with the D stuff. I'm sure it's quite relevant.

    Great point here. It can explain well that how he is a Logia and still touchable.

    Now, I have some questions here that I split them in two parts. One is about the Devil and the soul of Devil Fruits and another part is for Black Beard and how he did absorb the second Devil Fruit of him.

    1. If it's something related to souls and not to physical interactions, then how VegaPunk was able to make artificial Devil Fruits? How do Smiles work?
    2. How can they have that much difference in abilities? Variety is just too much obvious among Devil Fruits. The range of their capabilities is just too huge and one Devil Fruit can control fire, one can make the user become rubber and etc...

    About the Black Beard that's the main topic of this thread, there are some important questions:

    1. We know that already that Devil Fruits can change their host after the death of their users. So the next generations will have these Devil Fruits too. Like now, that ancestors of One Piece world would have used these Devil Fruits and clearly, there had been users that were using Yami Yami no Mi. So if the special ability of Yami Yami no Mi can absorb more than one Devil Fruit and control it, then why wouldn't all those other people use this ability and then control more than one Devil Fruit? Why is the Black Beard the only one who could use more than one Devil Fruit in the history? If he figured out how to do it with Yami Yami no Mi, why wouldn't all those other people in during that 800 years, wouldn't notice it? When the Gorosei says that there wasn't anyone in the history, it means it's true. So the only options that remain are these two: 1- Black Beard somehow knows how to use Yami Yami no Mi for absorbing more than two Devil Fruits, and for some reasons, all of those people during these 800 years, wasn't able to do so. 2- Maybe it's not all with his Devil Fruit?
    2. During the Marine Ford, Marco the first captain of White Beard's ship, said himself that the body of Black Beard is somehow different than the others and it's not normal and he also mentioned that all of us know that. So the question is, is it just something that has nothing to do with the fact of being able to control more than one Devil Fruits? I don't think so. I sometime thought so, but in that moment, those words of Marco, are a huge clue in this case. And they can't be ignored that much easily.
    3. Even if we ignore all those facts that I've mentioned, we have a sentence here: “No One can control more than a one Devil Fruit.”. It's what Oda has told us in One Piece. And it sounds like a rule in One Piece world. I don't think Oda would ruin One Piece with ruining the facts and the rules that he'd told us already. So is it really possible for Oda to say and declare something and then do something else in the Manga? Is he a liar? Or in other words, is One Piece World a liar?
    4. Having the ability to absorb more than one Devil Fruit and control them, is obviously contains the ability to have more than two Devil Fruits too. It means that Black Beard is able to use like unlimited amount of Devil Fruits. But still in this case, there would be some limitation. Controlling more than one Devil Fruit is really an overpowered ability and it doesn't make sense at all, according to the One Piece world's rules and facts that we already know. I really don't think Oda would ruin One Piece with making an overpowered character that's breaking the rules of himself. Having the ability to control more than one amount of Devil Fruit, is just too much overpowered. The question is, does it really make sense?

    Personally, I'd say it's possible that Oda would do such a thing, but since he was planning for Black Beard in early chapter of One Piece, I'm sure he has many greater ideas to use them. I believe that it's possible, but not quite probable in this case. The second question about Marco, I can ignore it too, but if it just has something to do with the Yami Yami no Mi, the first question that's really a problem here, would come and ruin everything.

    Now if your theory about the Devil Fruits is true, then it means we know how Black Beard brought the soul of the Devil Fruit out of the White Beard's body. But we still don't know how he can control more than one Devil Fruit, I don't think it's possible according to what we have seen until now. Still the Devil Fruit of Black Beard would prevent him to eat the Devil Fruit of White Beard. As you've mentioned yourself, Devil Fruits react to each other and don't like each other, it seems. Therefore, according to the words of Spandam, they will fight inside, and kill their host finally.

    But still you mentioned that the Devil Fruit of Black Beard is special and it can be an exception in this case. Because the nature and essence of this Devil Fruit, is darkness and it tends to bring everything into it, even other Devil Fruits and it may have no problem with them, since it can attract the other Devil Fruits. It's quite explainable and it's possible that Oda may explain it that way. But once again, why wouldn't anyone in these 800 years have tried this?
     
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  3. Jawahib

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    Woaaah what a great response dude! So glad that someone's engaged with this theory so much, so thank you for that.

    Pretty sure it was said that Smoker was originally a Grand Line Marine who got moved to Loguetown since it was the bottleneck of the Grand Line from East Blue. They named him "White Chase Smoker" in honour of the fact that no pirate had successfully managed to get past Loguetown and enter the Grand Line from East Blue since he was stationed there, and you can tell he had a severe dislike of pirates and a relentless determination to prevent any from reaching Reverse Mountain, so that'd explain his personal reasons for being there. I definitely don't think it was out of laziness or an interest in Gold Roger that he was in Loguetown.

    He was in fact so determined to keep his track record flawless that when a single pirate crew managed to escape Loguetown, rather than concede defeat, he instead abandoned his post and chased them down all the way to Alabasta before HQ caught up with him to reassign him elsewhere.

    I don't think so. I don't think the devils have enough intelligence to scheme like that, and it's a point that definitely would have come up in the past if it had happened before. It's still definitely something that may be expanded on later if this theory turns out to be true, but it's not something covered by the theory.

    Oh of course. Sorry; I meant it to be implicit that of course a devil can provide an eater with only the power the Fruit boasts of giving. The devil is tied closely with its powers; so much so that its nature mixes with the eater it gives them the powers.
    Sadly this has been actively disproved via Smiley, Caesar's monster who ate the Axolotl fruit. We see that in the very moment of his death, the fruit that the devil migrated to started slowly transforming, so it's clear that the devil has to leave instantly. and go live somewhere else. The reason Ace's Fruit took so long to show up was probably because there were no nearby fruits available at Marineford to inhabit, or if there were, because the devil simply didn't choose a fruit that was on the island.
    Yeah, this sounds good. The actual functionality of the devil inside the user is beyond the scope of this theory; I just offered a few possibilities to explain it, but your "mingling personality" theory has a lot of credit to it. The only issue I'd have with it is that you're accrediting too much by way of intelligence to the devils. I think your theory works because a devil has next to no personality; I specifically called it semi-sentient in the thread, because I think that they're less intelligent than even most animals. All they have is the drive to live somewhere (fruit or eater), their hatred of each other, and whatever they need to pass on the power to the eaters
    Actually the theory says that Devil Fruits specifically affect the eater's body, not soul. The soul stuff I mentioned was just to distinguish soul and body to highlight specifically what, in detail, inhabiting the body would mean.

    As to the actual question, there are several possible explanations that don't invalidate the theory at all. The one that I subscribe to is that SMILEs are made with SAD, which is exclusive to artificial DFs, indicating that Vegapunk's method is entirely different to natural DFs. I don't think devils play a role at all in SMILEs, and that they're something more science-based that can be explained with the same logic that gives Spiderman and Hulk their powers: radiation. It's supported by the fact that we see the radioactive symbol on SAD tanks, and that all SMILEs are Zoan type Devil Fruits.
    This is beyond the scope of this theory, since I don't think any answer to this question could entirely discredit this theory. However, my personal belief is that the explanation lies in the nature and origins of the devils themselves. Their power-giving is as inherent to them as hands and legs are to humans, and gills are to fishmen. It'd come down to "where did devils come from?" which I mention in my theory is not what I'm aiming to discuss.

    Actually this is where my theory really stumbles and is the only serious concern I have about it. I don't know why no one's done it in the past, and something that makes it seem really unlikely is that we know Blackbeard knew about the powers of the Yami Yami no Mi, yet the Gorosei still say having two DFs has never happened. Either it's misleading narration on Oda's part, or this theory is wrong. Of course I can say something like the Yami Yami has been hiding all this time and Blackbeard managed to get his hands on data from beyond the Void Century and hence beyond the knowledge of the Gorosei, or that the Gorosei were lying, or that the knowledge of the Gorosei isn't as complete as they like to let on.
    There are a number of explanations that could explain this point and keep this theory valid, but I acknowledge that the most obvious one is that my theory is incomplete or straight up wrong.

    Still, even without the context of my theory, I think it's a scenario that lends itself to plotholes. We have Blackbeard who poured years of his life into acquiring the Darkness Fruit: a Fruit which, while strong, isn't particularly mind-boggingly overpowered (from what we've seen confirmed). From what we've seen, he'd have been much better off going after the Goro Goro no Mi, which Robin says boasts invincibility (and really seemed to deliver). We haven't seen the Dark Dark Fruit actually do anything so impressive (save perhaps temporarily disabling Ace's DF power) that would warrant his desperation to get it - to the extent of murdering his nakama and being cast out. To me the only acceptable conclusion is that it was crucial in his recovery of the Gura Gura powers.

    But then you have all this "weird body" stuff and Luffy and Zoro referring to him as "they" on Jaya. I think that means the only remaining conclusion that can cover everything is that it's a mix of BB's weird body and the Yami Fruit, but that would violate my theory so far which says it lies in the devil of the Darkness being able to dominate other devils.

    But then you have the fact that BB is collecting strong DF users to date, which means that whatever formula he has going on isn't restricted to the two DFs. While the facts aren't contradictory, the direction of Oda's explanation of his multi-DF thing seems to be all over the place, and a theory that supports one explanation will hurt the other. Currently my theory does not cover BB's "weird body" or his Jolly Roger; not because it's incompatible with those facts, but because they don't support it.

    I think so too. I mean, I'd have no problem editing my theory to create the possibility that something about Blackbeard's body is needed in the formula to gain DF powers, but at its core I don't believe it's strictly necessary. Still, if it comes out like "The Darkness Fruit allows BB to consume other devils, and his weird body forces them to stay and give him the power", I'm still gonna come out saying "I told you so!" :P
    This is covered above. They could be lying but there could also be other explanations.
    I think there'd definitely be a limitation. This theory would say that the most likely limit is on the Darkness Fruit's devil. It allows it to dominate others, sure, but there'd definitely be a point where it can't dominate so many at once, and personally I believe this is the most likely explanation. It's also worth noting that BB is still on the hunt for cool DF powers, so it seems he's capable of eating more, but I don't think that it'll be limitless.
     
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  4. Behnam

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    You pointed out some great points here, like “Weird Body” of Black Beard, or that real problem that I've mentioned, before I pointed it out, I guess. I'm going to focus on Black Beard right now, that's the topic of this thread. Because I think your speculations about Devils inside of Devil Fruits is quite possible and I think it's already proved that it's something related to Souls and not physical factors. That's how this series is going on. Though I still think some parts have problem here, though as you said, it's possible for Oda to explain them later.

    I think you can already guess why I did mention about intelligence of Devils. And that they can have personality and awareness and combine it with the eater of them, and not some semi-sentient creatures. I was going to relate it with Black Beard in this topic.

    Imagine a Devil or a soul that's hidden inside of a Devil Fruit, as you said. But this time, let it be a creature who has awareness due to its soul. Like all those other intelligent terrestrials in One Piece. What if, they can control or even speak to their users? What if they have the capability to do it? Now this question comes to mind that, if they could, why did no one notice in these year? Maybe they don't want? Or maybe they intend to hide it from their eaters? Some rules that all of them must respect? You said that, they don't like each other. Somehow they react to other Devil Fruits, like gravity forces or natural forces. That's what you've said. We know that the interactions can be natural (Plants), instinctive (Animals), or intelligent ( Humans, this ability comes from the bran/soul of them. In One Piece, we can agree it's from the soul and something paranormal). So what if these Devils are not just reacting naturally with to each other? What if they are intelligent creatures that can decide, talk and communicate? I think you know what I want to say right now.

    So now there can be some possibilities for these Devil Fruits related to this topic, that how there can be an intelligent Devil:

    1. Disobedience: As I said, the Devils can be a hidden communication. For some reasons, they are not allowed to show any sign of awareness or intelligence from themselves to other humans or beings on earth. So now it's possible that during all of these years, one of those Devils tried to disobey this rule and communicate with a human? What if this Devil tried to do it right now? What if this Devil is Yami Yami no Mi? It can explain why no one could have more than one Devil Fruit and control it, since this the only Devil who disobeyed the rules and more importantly, this Devil decided to do it now. This creature decided to disobey all of those rules and communicate with a person for some mysterious and unknown reasons. What if the person that Yami Yami no Mi was waiting for and tried to communicate with him, is Marshall D Teach? Also known as Black Beard. This can help your theory and the first problem that I've mentioned, will be no problem at all. Though there might be some other problems due to this assumption.
    2. Evolution: Maybe these Devils weren't intelligent before and became like that over a period of time. They may have evolved and have become more intelligent over time. So what if one of those Devils started to evolve sooner than the others? What if that Devil Fruit is Yami Yami no Mi. That's another possibility for Yami Yami no Mi to be able to have intelligent and think in that way. Also it can help the theory and fix that first problem that I've mentioned, again. It somehow means that without the help of the Yami Yami no Mi itself, Black Beard wasn't able to control more than one Devil Fruits. Or it can be many other things in this case.
    3. Exception: Yami Yami no Mi, also known as “The strongest Devil Fruit”. Why is this Devil Fruit the strongest? We know that it can control darkness and absorb the energy of Devil Fruit users or anything else. But is that all of it? Or maybe, there are some other secrets behind this mysterious Devil Fruit? What if it's the only and only Devil that can communicate and has intelligent? What if that's the thing that makes is special than the others? This Fruit is always known as an exception among all of those other Fruits, but what if this exception means something else? It's quite possible to think like that. It can also explain many things and the problems are not there anymore, like those two other possibilities. I will explain it below.

    If we accept that the Yami Yami no Mi is somehow an intelligent Devil (One of those three possibilities or any other), we can explain many things that are mysterious in this topic:

    • “Weird Body”, you yourself said that the souls of Devil Fruits or the Devils in other words, just want the “Body” of the eater. So they want a place to inhabit in. They want a host. You say it's naturally done and have nothing to do with awareness of them. So what if that “Weird Body” comes from the effects that Yami Yami no Mi gave to Back Beard's “Body”? That's what Devil Fruits are looking for. And maybe the effects of Yami Yami no Mi who is a special Devil Fruit and the fact that it can have intelligence, can make his “Body” like that, “Weird” as Marco said.

    • I think all of us until now, have noticed the weird behavior of Black Beard. His personality is quite mysterious and it's obvious that sometimes he acts differently and sometimes he is another person? He doesn't have a certain personality. I know it can just a something specific just for him, but still it makes us to think about that difference in his actions and behaviors. If you remember, I said that it's possible for a Devil Fruit to also affect the personality of the user and combine with the original soul of the eater. So he/she becomes a different person after eating the Fruit, but only if the Devil Fruit has intelligent to go for that. Or maybe all of the Devil Fruits affect the souls of their users, but one of them, affect it, much more massive than the others. Exactly like the body. What if that special Fruit is Yami Yami no Mi and it can possesses the soul of Black Beard? But the thing I think it's more possible is that the Black Beard's personality, in other words, his soul is affected by the Devil of Yami Yami no Mi. Or maybe they are with each other and working for a specific purpose?

    • But despite two those problems that it can solve, it can solve a huge problem that I think you understand that i's going to be a huge problem here. You yourself mentioned that and I think it's really great that you noticed it. If we accept that there can be a Devil Fruit, or more than one with the intelligent (due to those three possibilities that I've mentioned or any other), then we can explain why no one could use the full of power of Yami Yami no Mi at those times. Because, if the Exception theory is true, then it means Yami Yami no Mi has awareness and Intelligent and it's possible that it was waiting for someone like Teach, but all of these years, it couldn't find anyone to deserve to control the full power of Yami Yami no Mi. But I don't think it can explain this part very well. So I think those two other possibilities are much more acceptable here. If we accept the Evolution part, it can explain very well that how no one could use the full power of Yami Yami no Mi. So Oda can use this part and easily explain what he wants. Saying that Devil Fruits started evolve and Yami Yami no Mi was the first Fruit because of that. But still, it can't explain why Yami Yami no Mi was known as the strongest Fruit with strong reasoning. Now I think the first part comes, that's called Disobedience. It's possible that Yami Yami no Mi started to disobey the rules sooner that he'd met Black Beard. Therefore, Yami Yami no Mi made a chaos at those past times and he was known the Strongest Devil Fruit because of that. And now, this Devil started to make someone be able to use its full power and be able to control two Devil Fruits at the same time. Though still there are some problems, but they can easily be explained by Oda, if he wants so. I see no problem right now, mention it if there are any. Also that this Devil, Yami Yami no Mi started to disobey the general rules of Devils at this time, can easily provide us what we want, as I've mentioned, with the least problems.

    I think there can be more evidences, if the origin of Devil Fruits get revealed. Though as you've mentioned, it's not relevant to our topic, right now. Since there is almost nothing to discuss about it, for the origin of them. But with these there will be no serious concern, at least.

    About that how much Oda had planned for Black Beard and if there is anything that might not make sense because of it, I'm sure that the Black Beard's secret and his mysteriousness is something planned and organized by Oda. I'm sure that we will get really surprised by knowing the truth behind him. Not even how his Devil Fruit works, but many other things that I think they are almost related to themselves and with that way Oda can provide a great surprise for all of us. I have reasons for that, I think Black Beard was the one that Oda was working on him from the first moments of creating One Piece. The first time that we'd known something about Black Beard pirates was at the Dum Island.

    [​IMG]

    Obviously, Oda gave so much attention to him and was making the bases of his character over time. And when we hear the name of “Pirate”, the first name that comes after it to most our minds is “Black Beard”. So it's quite probable for Oda to have inspired this bad guy from the first, or maybe even before years of making One Piece, he had this guy in his mind and wanted to make him the main villain. Also the fact that the first time that we've heard about him was at Dum Island (Or maybe even before it, I don't know), can prove the fact that this character has regularity in almost everything in One Piece. I'm sure and I expect to see everything planned, at least in this case. Since Oda had like more than 15 years to do that.
     
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  5. Jawahib

    Both Exotic and Professor
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    Some great ideas coming out of your end, but we're starting to deviate a fair bit from the original theory. Since they're too interesting for me to ignore, I'm happy to keep this going though.

    To sort of generally answer your post, I want to say that I think you're too attached to this "intelligent devil" theory thing. Don't get me wrong, it's a great theory, but I don't think it's as necessary as you make it seem in order to explain the things that my theory is struggling with. In fact, you raise some great ideas in your explanation that, if you took the intelligent devil aspect out, would flow seamlessly with mine. For example:
    This is actually brilliant and honestly something I should have connected before: part of the Darkness Fruit's power is that it gives its eater a weird body.
    It doesn't need the intelligence in order to impart this property. You go on to say "That's what Devil Fruits are looking for" but I think that's a slippery slope since it implies a manipulative aspect of DFs that's akin to the One Ring from LOTR where DFs can influence people who they want to eat it. But then, that would've been around for ages and definitely referred to by now.

    This explanation isn't entirely necessary: the theory is not made weaker by its absence. The peculiarities of BB's character can be attributed to just that: peculiarities. I've never once thought that he was behaving so out of character at some stage that he'd need a split personality (ie the personality influenced by an intelligent devil) to explain it. Of course the idea of an intelligent devil influencing character would be a natural conclusion of your great theory, but this explanation doesn't cover any faults of mine.

    There's a lot of great stuff floating around here, and this would be where intelligent devil theory > non-intelligent devil theory (though I still think the latter is more plausible).
    I can't think of a convincing explanation as to why no one has used the Darkness Fruit to absorb other DF powers before BB without the intelligent devil idea. I mean, I can make something up like I said before, but it'd wouldn't slot in nicely with the theory like it does with yours. Since the Yami Yami no Mi is obviously some kind of exception to the general rules, I could have that be exclusively intelligent hence why it dominates and doesn't fight the other devils it shares a body with, and then apply what you've said about it choosing BB (though I don't think that's particularly likely since BB isn't particularly strong or otherwise special). But this explanation isn't clean.
    Your explanation on the other hand, does cover it nicely, and even if it didn't there are plenty of ways to reconcile an intelligent devil with the fact that the Darkness Fruit is being used in a way it's never been used before.

    Anyway, that's all I have to say on the intelligent devil thing.
     
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  6. Behnam

    The one who wants CHOIce
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    At first I saw it relevant to the Black Beard and then when I saw that you were talking about Devil Fruits being “semi-sentient”, I thought it can be interesting to start that discussion. And you're right about that it's not quite necessary to believe in this “Intelligent Devil Fruit Theory”, and they can be explained by that “Semi-sentient Devil Fruit Theory” too. But I think you understand why I did it, because of that serious concern of course. I think it can explain other parts as well, that's why I mentioned those parts too.

    But the thing is, that it can strengthen the “exception”, we can declare that the Yami Yami no Mi is exception among all those other fruits and it change the body of its user much more massive than the others, but still exceptions become more reasonable if there is something behind them. Like the reason that Yami Yami no Mi can affect Black Beard's body is not because of its natural specifics, but it's because of that it's a Devil Fruit, with intelligent. Though we still explain the same thing easily at the other side, that's semi-sentient Devil Fruit Theory.

    But if you ask me, I don't think any theory can come out completely true. It always has some problems or maybe wrong points in the speculations of its theorist, or even it if doesn't have any, still as you mentioned it many times, Oda can easily provide some explanations behind it and change the whole thing. I think you understand this part very well and it's a great advantage in your theories.

    Also, I forgot to mention something really important at my last post. We already know that the Jolly Roger of every pirate is the symbol their captain. I can give you different examples here, in One Piece. I'm not going to say them since you yourself mentioned the Jolly Roger of Black Beard. So since we already know that those 3 skulls are the symbol of Black Beard. Now the thing I want to say is that, the Intelligent Devil Fruit Theory can explain it clearly. It's possible that those three skulls are showing that the Black Beard is not one person and he can be three persons in one, but how it's possible here? I see that every person here who had a theory about Black Beard and his Devil Fruit, had ignored this great point here. Obviously, it's a clue, maybe the most important clue that we have right now, about Black Beard. Though you didn't mention it in your theory, still you did mention it at your posts and it seems you haven't forgotten it.

    We can say it's showing three people, and then according to “3 Brothers Theory” we can explain it. And it's really acceptable here. But what if that 3 skulls are the symbol of “More than one person”? What if they are not exactly showing three specific persons? Then we can say that, Black Beard is more than one person, not three person. So it means he can be two person in one. That's when the intelligent of Devil, Yami Yami no Mi comes and declare that “I have intelligent and awareness, so I am a person here”. So with this we can explain why Black Beard has a Jolly Roger that has the shape of 3 skulls and they are the symbol “Being more than one”. And that question we had, about how it's possible, well... since the eater has the Devil inside of his soul, and Yami Yami no Mi has awareness, it means that two persons (Two souls, both with intelligent) are inside of one body.

    Though still “3 Brothers Theory” is much cleaner and much more capable to explain this part. But still I wanted to mention it, since I forgot it when I want to mention all those other results at my last post.

    [​IMG]

    Another point that I want to add, is that if we accept the “Exception” part, we can still say your theory is true in this way, since all those other Devil Fruits act like a semi-sentient creature. But in this case, Yami Yami no Mi is an exception. Though as you mentioned, it's not quite necessary, but the importance of this part will show itself in that serious concern that this theory has, and if it's not necessary and it can be explained with other ways, it doesn't mean it's not acceptable in this part. But the thing I wanted to reach was at the end of my last post and I think you understand that how much the theory stumbles at this part.

    We can also provide the explanation that how Yami Yami no Mi is special and can let its user to have more Devil Fruits. You said that all those Devil Fruits are semi-sentient and it means they have no awareness and act naturally. We know that, when two Devil Fruits are in the same body, according to your theory they will reaction to each other and therefore, it's like a fight between them that destroys the body of the user. So if one of those Devil Fruits, is not semi-sentient, but intelligent, it's obviously possible for it to ignore that “Battle” inside of its user. The details are not obvious here, but for a reaction, an action is needed. Gravity only works, if there is more than one object. So what if, that awareness can help him to somehow cross over that useless battle with another Devil Fruit? Since it literally can decide, like an intelligent creature.

    By the way, I'm not going to continue this “Intelligent Devil Fruit” discussion, since I think everything is expressed right now, and there is no need to repeat the same thoughts in this case. But if you have anything you want to add or as a response to these new things that I've mentioned, I'll be glad to hear it here.

    I think your theory is a bit short (For the Black Beard part) and the first time that I read it, there was still so many questions in my head that weren't answered. And during these posts, I think more things became clear for me, though still there are some serious questions here. I think I'd summarize all of them here, though I'm sure you mentioned all of them:

    • How did Black Beard bring out the Devil/Soul of the Devil Fruit/Devil Fruit itself out of the White Beard's body after his death?

    • How could he eat/absorb/control more than one Devil Fruit, after he brought the Devil out of White Beard's body?

    • What's with that “Weird Body” of him? How can we explain that?

    • How can we explain the Jolly Roger of Black Beard? Three skulls? What does it mean? Does it have to do something with his Devil Fruit or what?

    • Why did Zoro and Luffy call him “They”/“More than one person” at Jaya (As you've mentioned, though obviously their meaning was Jesus Burges and Black Beard's crew. But still it's gonna be a really big hint from Oda, two meanings at the same time.)

    • Why Black Beard was so much interested in Yami Yami no Mi? Is it just being the most powerful Devil Fruit? Can it make that Teach who wouldn't care about these stuffs, who even gave up and let Ace to be the 2nd commander, a person like that, to kill his nakama? What's the secret behind Yami Yami no Mi?

    • Why among all those other Yami Yami no Mi users in the history, only he was able to control more than one devil fruit?

    • Did that black curtain have anything to do with the process of absorbing White Beard's Devil Fruit? Or is it just for hiding what Black Beard was doing?

    As I've explained, Black Beard has a character that's based strongly by Oda, from the first arcs of this series until now. I'm sure that the clues and evidences and also hints from Oda are completely there to be seen by our eyes. He had like more than 10-15 years to provide the strong bases for his character. And therefore, I'm sure that the moment that it gets revealed, we will be completely shocked and will tell ourselves that “Oh my god, we were blind whole this time.”

    About those questions, if you have any extra explanations or want to mention something that can help the theory, do it. Or if you remembered something right now. Though I brought them up again, just for a general summary over the all of the questions about Black Beard here. Though there might be still some other questions too, but I think these are more serious right now.

    Black Beard and his Devil Fruit is really a mysterious discussion right now and people always try to bring up their thoughts and ideas about this every time that something is revealed and has connection to it. But they are quite interesting and I would say it's really a hot topic nowadays, in One Piece. Though still these chapters were quite interesting too and therefore you can behold many theories about it and hence Black Beard's theory is going to have less attention among all those others.

    I'm going to tag someones, so they can read this theory about Black Beard, and if they have already did it, I hope they give their ideas about it. @Admiral Ryokugyu , @Yuuzume , @Storm chaser . What do you guys think about it? Share your thoughts with us in this case!
     
  7. Admiral Ryokugyu

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    my thoughts about this subject perfectly match with @Behnam 's. I was always against the idea that says Blackbeard's secret resides in a " special " ability of the Yami Yami no Mi. That's just absurd. After all these years Oda will come and tell us that there's actually a Devil Fruits that lets you get more of them ?? I don't think so. Even the Gorosei have no clue about how he could have done that, and we're talking about the people for whom the genius Vegapunk works.

    @Jawahib that's a well written theory. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.
     
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  8. Yuuzume

    Slayer Candidate
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    Well,all these comments and the theory (both theories) were enjoyable to read,so let me begin this comment by thanking Behny ( @Behnam ) for tagging me here.Also,my compliments to the both of you for the interesting debate you've had until this point that raised quite a few points.Now then,let me share my opinion on many of those points as well to the best of my ability.

    1. Obviously I can't know whether or not Oda had already planned out everything concerning the details of how devil fruits work by the start of the series,but I can say that it doesn't really matter.The reason for my thinking that is because whether or not it was planned,the pieces ended up fitting perfectly with each other.Allow me to explain the reasoning behind that statement.Devil fruits may not be so uncommon inside the Grand Line,but they are quite so outside of it.So even though the existence of the fruits has been spread as rumours and legends outside of the Grand Line,it's not illogical for people to not take them seriously as most of them have probably never seen one.As evidence of that,Morgan and Alvida were both surprised at the sight of Luffy's powers as they both didn't believe in the eistence of deil fruits.But as for Loguetown,since that's the island closest to the entrance to the Grand Line in the East Blue,it's logical for the residents to be more aware of the existence of devil fruits.Since that island is the entry point,it'd make sense for the Navy to post devil fruit users (Smoker) there to prevent pirates form entering,hence cutting off the bud before it has time to grow.It also makes sense for the bounties to not be enough for people to be aware of the respective pirates while they're outside of the Grand Line.That's because the bounties start out small,which is not enough for normal citizens to notice them.And when the bounties have gotten big enough for people to notice,they've already part of pirates inside of the Grand Line,diverting the focus from their sea of origin and the existence of devil fruit users in that sea.

    2. Now let's move on to the subject of devil fruits and souls.First I'll comment on Jawahib's opinion that he suggests in his theory and then on Behny addition to it of the idea of "intelligent devil fruits".

    A. Jawahib,your suggestion that devil fruits affect only the physical body of the user and leave the soul intact is one that I do find interesting.However,there is one subject that makes it hard to accept,the same one that you use as a basis for your suggestion,Brook's existence.Like you say in your other theory,Brook's soul visibly manifested itself in the One Piece world after his death.Now,if devil fruits affect only the physical body of the user,then Brook's soul when he was at that state would be considered "normal" since it would not have been altered in any way.But if that is the case,then why doesn't every "normal" soul visibly manifest after every person's death in the One Piece world? We haven't seen it happen before in a case other than Brook's,so it's safe to assume that Brook's case is different than that of any normal person's.How is Brook's case different? It's most likely different due to the fact that Brook's devil fruit didn't simply affect his body,but his soul as well.You reach a similar conclusion yourself in your other theory,and by that I mean that you regard Brook's case an exception by suggesting that due to the nature of his devil fruit,it affects his physical body indirectly via his soul.This particular part is the one that troubles me.I can accept that all devil fruits affect people differently,as there is a variety of them and each of them is unique,and that the details of those effects can differ.However,that's only assuming that they all fall into the category of an original premise.What I mean by that is that I could accept Brook's devil fruit being sort of unique compared to others as far as its details go,but that's only as long as it affected only the physical body,like you suggested that the others do.But right now,the conclusion I see in front of me is that every devil affects the physical body of the user,except for Brook's which also affects his soul.That's a bit too unique for me to accept because it singles out Brook's devil fruit completely from the others.Even Teach's devil fruit is unique,but it also falls under the premise of the usual devil fruits and is regarded as simply special,not completely different.So based on that,I believe that all devil fruits affect both the body and the soul of their users.

    As far as the souls themselves go,and the premise that they are responsible for people's ability to speak and think,Brook's case is relevant here too.In fact,it's not just Brook's case that's relevant,there's also Big Mom's case.I'm surprised you didn't include her in a subject concerning souls,but her devil fruit can presumably affect the souls of people in the same way that Brook's devil fruit affected his.That is to say,the power of certain devil fruits can affect people's souls and give them the properties to speak and think like Brook and Big Mom's homies can.And in turn,that a pure soul that hasn't been altered in any way,wouldn't have the same properties as Brook's or as one's who got extracted from someone by the use of Big Mom's devil fruit.


    B. Behny suggested the concept of intelligent devil fruits to try and support the part of the theory that talks about Blackbeard.I'll get to that part later,so let's just talk about the said concept for now.There hasn't been a precedence of such a notion in the series,but that's not enough to rule it out so let's not go too deep into that matter.The reason I mentioned it is to highlight the fact that the only presumed case for now,according to Behny,is the Yami-Yami fruit.Regardless of which reason out of those he suggested applied in this case (Disobedience,Evolution,Exception),the result that he reached was the same in all 3 scenarios.The result I'm talking about is the fact that only the Yami-Yami fruit has gained intelligence and talked to a human due to whichever of the 3 reasons,so let's focus on that particular case.The scenario in which the darkness fruit talks to Teach doesn't correlate with the rest of the facts tat we know.Think about it,Teach was interested and had been looking for that particular fruit for a long time while in Whitebeard's crew.But if Teach had gotten interested in the darkness fruit only after it talked to him,the fact that he had been looking for it wouldn't make sense.I assume that the fruit could talk to a person only when he had consumed it,held it,or at very least was in the same room/location with it.But Teach hadn't come across the fruit before Thatch found it,and yet he still desired it way before that time.That means that Teach already knew that the darkness fruit was special in a different way.

    C. There is a certain point which I'm glad Behny mentioned as far as devil fruits go,as I would have done so myself,and that point is the existence of SMILEs.It is quite relevant to the subject of devil fruits and after the Punk Hazard arc,it is a subject I'd rather see explained in any theory about devil fruits.Because the fact that man made devil fruits can exist and have the same effects as one kind of "normal" devil fruits begs the question of whether or not devil fruits are actually something completely natural and/or affect people in a natural way.It's not irrelevant in my opinion as it is a very important subject.


    3. Finally,let's talk about Blackbeard and the suggestions that were made about him.

    A. @Jawahib The suggestion that Blackbeard's devil fruit is what allows him to steal abilities is one I don't need to bo convinced about since I agree with it quite strongly already and believe it myself.But that only answers half the question that is "How can Black beard have 2 abilities?" in my eyes.That is because it doesn't explain,by itself anyway,how Blackbeard can house 2 abilities at the same time,that's why I agree with the first 2 points that Behny raised quite a bit.If you disregard the matter of how he can house them,then Marco's hint becomes redundant,which I don't believe it to be.And if you attribute the reason as to why Teach can house 2 abilities to his devil fruit,then it raises the question of why there hasn't been a precedence in the past.Unless those 2 matters are explained properly,I find it quite hard to believe that the reason for Teach housing 2 abilities is his devil fruit.An forced explanation like "Hey,we lied" would be disappointing coming from Oda himself.The fact that he hasn't given us such explanations so far is one of the main reasons why it's interesting to make theories about One Piece.


    B. Behny tried to explain the special body by suggesting that the devil fruit is what gave Teach his body,but that just brings us back to the devil fruit being a point by itself.Instead of each point being separate,that suggestions combines the two points.That is to say,if it was the devil fruit that gave Teach the special body,it would have given it to its previous users as well.Also,if Teach had gotten a special body after getting the darkness fruit (so after he left Whitebear's crew),Marco and the rest of the crew would have no way of knowing it,which they did.As for the intelligence of the darkness fruit,I mention it above.

    I think that covers right about everything mentioned.The points you both raised were enjoyable to read and both theories by Jawa were very nicely structured and nicely written.You said at the end of the other one that you have the ability to confuse people,but it was actually pleasant to read.I appreciated your opinins due to your comments but this is the first time I read theories made by you,and I'm quite impressed.
     
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  9. Storm chaser

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    Wow, what an theory. Thanks @Behnam for tagging me. I read all of the post's you guys made, really awsome ideas.

    I do believe that BB has a special body, Marco mentioning it has to have importance. It is a hint to us. What kind of special, I have no clue. I think the darkness DF plays a big part in him robbing the DF from dying people.
    The theory of him keeping his brothers inside his body with the darkness DF was awsome, and could go with this theory too.
    Another possibility I tought of is, that he has 3 personalities, or 3 souls inside him.

    The theory of DF having devils that want the body as host's is not bad one, I could totally believe it.
    You debate of them not being able to react with the soul. However, I do think that some DF do host the soul, not the body. Brook is a good example, and Big Mom and her abilities too.

    So, if the darkness DF actually only affects the soul, BB could have it residing in his soul, and then the gura DF hosting his body. Other possibilities is that the DF actually only host the soul. BB having 3 souls inside him make's it possible for him to have 3 DF.

    But what is the DF goes to your personality, instead of soul/body. BB having many personalities would make it easy for him to get many DF. Of course there is many faults with this idea, but when Luffy and Zoro talked about ''them''. I assumed it meant either BB's crewmates, or his personalities/souls that reside in him.
    He def dosent have one soul/personality.

    Since we dont know everything about the darkness DF, it is hard to say how much it affect's all of this.
    BB clearly knew about it's secret. Like you said, he joined WB's crew for the sole purpose of them acquiring it being so high. And then killed Thatch when he found it.
    I imagine he knew about it since he was a child, we have seen that one drawing of BB as a kid. He looks lonely and has a tear in his eye. Also looks like he is sitting near a wall, maby having a watch duty or something. So his history isint a happy one, and I think it will play a big part later.

    Another possibility is, that if the devil does take the body, not soul. BB has sometype of conjoined twins in his body. Them having theyre bodyparts, the devil would go into them. I dont think they would be intelligent enough to talk, but big enough for the devil to think they are a different body than BB. This is a loose idea, but I would b interested in hearing if you had this idea?

    Then, there is more. :-D
    If BB has bodyparts stiched to him, like an arm that isint his orginally, would the devil think of it as a different part of the body? What if it is artificial in someway, would the devil think of it as a body too? How much would the devil need of a body part to host it? Like the whole body, or just an arm for example?
     
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  10. Behnam

    The one who wants CHOIce
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    It's good to have your thoughts in this case, guys. Since you've also read the posts, I think you can understand what we had in our minds after it. Because the theory itself, doesn't explain much.

    I think I can take most of your thoughts there, @Yuuzume . I've only found one part from your words that I think I need to mention something about it here.

    First, I think you already know that I mentioned something about combined personalities after a human eats a Devil Fruit. And I somehow gave some possibilities that can be a good way for explaining Yami Yami no Mi, to have personality and be intelligent. When I mentioned that it's possible that Yami Yami no Mi would be able to talk to everyone, it was just a thought that I didn't really focus on it. But the thing I wanted to say is that, it can talk with its user. So until you don't eat this Devil Fruit, you can't talk with it

    When their personalities are combined to each other, obviously they have a connection between themselves there. So they can connect each other, by talking of course. And maybe Yami Yami no Mi wasn't able to connect properly when Black Beard hadn't eaten it yet.

    Second, it's possible that Teach had heard some rumors about this Devil Fruit and was interested in it for many others reasons. I don't say he was interested for it because it could talk or what else it could be. But now let's say he was really looking for it. And the moment he saw it, his enthusiasm for getting it was somehow increased that he would even kill his friend for it. So I think, it's possible that we think, just having dream of that fruit for years, isn't going to be a good reasons for doing that murder. But I say, he was going to do it, but he was not sure. when Yami Yami no Mi started to connect with Black Beard, and it was like this Devil finally had found someone that deserve controlling it. So after Yami Yami no Mi talked/connected with Teach, he became sure and killed Thatch without any hesitation. I provided this explanation because it's quite possible and probable.

    But I'm not really insisting in this part, since I've mentioned many other ways that it can be still reasonable there. As I said, it's possible that Yami Yami no Mi could talk, or connect with its user after eating the Devil Fruit. And I think this part is quite probable, because as I'd mentioned before it that personalities get combined, but for whatever the reason is, other Devil Fruits are semi-sentient and not intelligent, as Jawahib said. Or maybe they don't want to connect the user. With those reasons, only intelligent Devil Fruits can affect the personality of their users, or maybe more than the others that it's quite visible and understandable. Or maybe other Devil Fruits don't want so.

    Also, about those three theories: Exception, Disobedience and Evolution. I have to say that there is a difference among them. The only difference is, disobedience says that all of these Devil Fruits have Intelligence and can talk. But they won't, because of some rules among them. But Exception and Evolution says that there is only and only one Devil Fruit that has intelligent and can talk, and it's Yami Yami no Mi. So since we have only one Devil Fruit that can make its user be able to use another Devil Fruit, is not even a problem, but a great and strong point that can help these two theories.

    It says that, because of the nature of Darkness Fruit, Yami Yami no Mi is able to absorb the Soul of the Devil Fruits from the body of its user, and bring it inside of its own user body, and then because it has intelligent, it can avoid that battle and make its user be able to control more than one Devil Fruit.

    About the talking part, I knew those problems, though I never said that it's impossible for Yami Yami no Mi to not be able to talk. It's possible that it has intelligent, but it can connect its user, without talking. We have different kind of connection in our world and obviously talking requires a language, though there are many other types of connection in this world that still can provide us what we want in this case.

    I mentioned this “Intelligent Devil Fruit” theory at first, because I wanted to reach Black Beard's Devil Fruit, Yami Yami no Mi with it. And the reason I mentioned that talking, I wanted to reach something with it that I think it's quite interesting now. “The Voice of All things”.

    We know that Roger was able to hear this Voice. Also Luffy, the voice of giant sea monsters, Zunisha and we don't know how only Roger and Luffy were able to hear them. And why only Momonosuke was able to connect with Zunisha and talk with it? But Luffy just could hear it.

    That's when this connection between Yami Yami no Mi and Black Beard comes in. And Jawahib mentioned that why would Yami Yami no Mi choose Black Beard? Well... I would explain it that way, that he could hear Yami Yami no Mi's voice and it's also possible that he would had been able to connect with it too, in response. But it's also possible that he could just hear it. Maybe he was interested in it in the past, because he had heard Yami Yami no Mi's voice? What if Back Beard was interested in this Devil Fruit and was looking for it because of that? What if Yami Yami no Mi sent a message to Black Beard and when he received, he was looking after that? Obviously this reason is quite enough for anyone to kill his friend for it.

    In this way, we can explain two things: That 1- Why would Black Beard kill his friend? 2- Why was he looking for Yami Yami no Mi?

    It's my explanation about this. But I'm sure there can be many other possibilities here with those three theories: Exception, Evolution and Disobedience.
     
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  11. Yuuzume

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    @Behnam Apparently we agree on the premise that if the Yami-Yami no mi could talk to its user,it would only be possible after they ate it or at least held it (but the most logical way would be after eating it). So it still doesn't explain Teach's obsession with it,previous to Thatch obtaining it.Teach went as far as not becoming a commander of the 2nd division,like Ace suggested as well,just to not draw attention to himself.In fact,the very reason that he joined the crew of Whitebeard,as because he thought that he had higher chances of finding the darkness fruit while in Whitebeard's crew.
    p_00017.jpg
    My point is that he was already resolved to go to great lengths to obtain the fruit,even killing his crew mate,even before he laid eyes on it.The scenario of the fruit having talked to Teach in the past and that that is the reason for him searching for it is one I find unlikely,because Teach would have obtained it when he came across it in the past and there wouldn't be a need to look for it.That's why I believe that Teach heard about it from someone else without actually having run across it himself.And the reason as to why he was so obsessed with it,is because he was aware of his special body.He knew that his body could house 2 fruits,but it would be useless if he couldn't obtain 2 of them.Of course he could have just eaten 2 devil fruits directly,but that would include actually finding 2 devil fruits that he was satisfied with.And if he wanted to power up his crew after that,he would need to do the same,while now he can simply steal them.He valued the power of the darkness fruit to steal abilities,hence his strong obsession to it.

    As for the devil fruit and its intelligence being thee reason that Teach can use 2 powers,I'm still i favor of the special body being the reason.Because for the devils to avoid "fighting",it would need intelligence from both sides.The devil of the darkness fruit may be smart enough to want to avoid the fight,but the one in the quake fruit is still like all the others and wants to fight.And if we say that all devil fruits are intelligent,then everyone would be able to eat more than one devil fruit,because then all the devil wouldn't want to fight each other,and all devil fruit users would have double/triple personalities.

    Honestly,I can't see a scenario where all those things are explained properly if you consider that the darkness fruit is an intelligent devil fruit.However,I don't completely rule it out as it's still a possibility,like you say.In fact,the best scenario I think of for your suggestion,is that the information that Teach heard in the past,is actually the fact that the darkness fruit has intelligence.It wouldn't explain all the above situations,and it wouldn't be enough for me to consider it anything more than a possibility,but that scenario is the one that connects the most dots in my eyes.
     
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  12. Behnam

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    I see, it seems I'd forgotten that scene. But according to your words, I think you can still understand the situation. But the thing is, the Intelligent Devil Fruit Theory is acceptable, if we first accept basis of @Jawahib's Theory. Then we can come up with those 3 ideas and at the same time, we can accept it and say there is an exception out there, Yami Yami no Mi.

    I think that “Weird Body” of Black Beard isn't something that we can speculate directly and say: “Yeah, his body is special and he has Yami Yami no Mi, so he can control more than two devil fruits”. Obviously there is going to be more explanations behind it.

    In this case, we can say that Yami Yami no Mi can absorb the Soul of the fruits with its nature, darkness. And then according to Weird Body of Black Beard that's going to be the house of that Fruit, and intelligence of Yami Yami no Mi that can avoid that battle, we can say it's possible to have more than one devil fruit. Though the darkness is not going to play a big role here, and that's the problem about this idea.

    About that connection, I think you yourself gave another possibility that can happen, that Yami Yami no Mi was the one who was guiding Black Beard all this time. But it doesn't sound as perfect as the other possibilities that are somehow invalid according to that page of Manga. So I think the possibility of Yami Yami no Mi, talking and connecting with Teach before eating it, can be ignored in this case.

    Personally I think the reason why we can't reach a perfect result, is that, this is somehow related with the origin of Devil Fruits. And maybe the Ancient Kingdom or other mysterious stuffs at One Piece. So since this theory discusses about “How do they work?”, we can't reach something without problem. But personally I'd not ignore any possibility in anything, though still some spots are empty and filled with not so much appropriate ideas and thoughts that are not acceptable right now, but still could happen, there are always some explanations for everything.

    But right now, I don't want to focus so much on their origin, since this theory has no say in there and it's not relevant to discuss it here. But according to that these Devil Fruits have a weakness against Salt, and somehow it's really related to Bible stories. Adam and Eve story. Therefore, I think there are many others things there for us to use it and make these theories more acceptable.

    Also, something that I think would be interesting to discuss about, is that, if Yami Yami no Mi is intelligent, then, what if it can eat a Devil Fruit? A Devil Fruit eats another Devil Fruit? Well... it's just an idea here and would be really interesting to discuss about. But first we need to assume that Yami Yami no Mi is intelligent. Then, is it possible for this darkness fruit to eat a Devil Fruit itself? We know that, according to Jawahib's theory the Devil Fruits inhabit in the body of their users, and you say that they house in both. is it possible that a Devil Fruit, inhabit in another Devil Fruit? Or if it is, then, can it make the user of it capable to use both of them, one directly an one indirectly? Though we need to accept, Evolution or Exception part, since only Yami Yami no Mi is intelligence among all those other Devil Fruits. Let me hear your thoughts in this case! If an inanimate object can eat a Devil Fruit (Vegapunk's work), why is it impossible for an intelligent Devil Fruit to eat another Devil Fruit? Yami Yami no Mi, can absorb other devil fruits to itself, and therefore it can make its eater to use it indirectly. Is it possible? What do you think?
     
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  13. Yuuzume

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    Of course there need to be explanations behind it,but ones that separate the matter of the special body with that of the Yami-Yami fruit.If the special body is explained through the darkness fruit,then the darkness fruit becomes the sole reason as to why Teach can house two abilities.If that was the case,there would be precedence of people with dual abilities in the past and thee "special body" would cease to be a point by itself.

    If the special body is used as the reasoning for why Teach can house 2 abilities,then the intelligence doesn't really have a relevant role to play.The darkness fruit may be intelligent enough to avoid battle,but that's not he case for the rest.The quake fruit would still want to "fight" inside of Teach,so the reason for Teach's dual wielding still ends up being the body.

    Actually,the scenario I was suggesting is that an actual person guided Teach to the darkness fruit.For that,I do have a wild guess.which is merely fun to think about.

    Actually,the 2 point you raise are not only relevant in this theory,they are the exact same points that Jawa is trying to answer in this theory.They are of course,like you say,relevant and could affect the subject of devil fruits.My comments in this thread were made while assuming that Jawa's suggestions applied.It's just that considering that those suggestions applied raised several points,which I mentioned,that I would need explained to consider said suggestions as something more than a possibility.Of course,I do still do consider them a possibility.

    As interesting as that idea sounds,it's not one I would find plausible,and the reason for that is the same as one above.If that was the case,then a person wouldn't need to possess a special body to house 2 devil fruits since they would only need to eat the darkness fruit to be able to do so.So there would be a precedence of dual wielding devil fruit users in the past.However,it would be interesting to combine that with your "evolution" scenario.Combined with that,it could be said that the darkness fruit became capable of eating other devil fruits only after Teach ate it,not in the past.That would explain why there would be no precedence of other dual wielding devil fruit users in past.

    However,that's only the best scenario as it still has a point that needs explaining and prevents me from believing it could happen.If the darkness fruit became capable of eating another devil fruit only after Teach ate it,then why was Teach looking for it? There would be no way to know that it would evolve and become capable of that,so there would be no need for Teach to be looking for it.The way to explain that,would be Teach's special body.And we use the special body to explain it,then the talk about devil fruit intelligence loses meaning.


    I consider the scenarios that can't be conclusively proven wrong as possibilities.The points I raise when I comment are the ones which I personally would need explained and justified for me to think of the respective as more than possibilities and strengthen my belief that they could happen.
     
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  14. Jawahib

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    My theory directly answers all these questions save for the "weird body" one and the Jolly Roger one. Briefly:
    After WB's death the Gura Gura's devil would have just left his body. Thus BB threw a dark curtain over his standing corpse that would in some way trap the devil. While the devil was still floating around, he would've used the Yami Yami no Mi to suck it in using some technique: either the same one he used to suck out Ace's power or some variant. There are other possible explanations that would hold true to this theory but this is the obvious one.
    Teach admitted that the only reason he joined WB's crew was because it heightened his chances of encountering the Yami Yami no Mi. Thus it's not out of character at all for him to pass up Division Commander, and murder his nakama for it since such things align with his intention.

    There is room for the other questions to be answered if my theory holds, but they will be expansions, and things that I'm not deadset on. For example:
    The devil of the Yami Yami no Mi is special since it allows its eater to dominate other devils by giving them a "weird body". It also has a stronger presence, imparting the aura of another awareness to its eater, explaining why Luffy and Zoro called BB "they".
    It's possible that in Blackbeard's research of the Fruit, he discovered something that gave him the idea that it could be used to consume other DFs, and it simply hadn't occurred to anyone before to try it. It's also possible that the devil of the Darkness Fruit imparted the knowledge to him in some way, encouraging him to do it.
    It's important to note though that despite this allegedly being the first time in the history of the world that this has happened, BB undertook the task of getting 2 DFs with the certainty that it would work, though his crew seemed less sure. He went in saying "I'm going to give you the greatest show in the world!" and didn't seem shocked that it worked perfectly when he came out, so it's possible he'd already tried doing this with some weaker and nameless Fruit already, and maybe cast it out (though that's theories on theories now). The only explanations I can conceive of for his certainty are the Fruit told him about it or he'd already tried it out: relying on "Weird Body" alone wouldn't cut it.
    So yeah that should cover all those questions to some degree.

    Actually, the fact that they only reside in the body with Brook as the exception is something I got from Brook's Fruit, and all of my conclusions are based on what we've seen Brook do. Before I get into this though I'd like to talk about the impact of BM's power on my souls theory.

    Now, I'd written the Souls theory before we even knew anything about BM's powers, and I'm surprised to see that, while it may need a bit of maintenance, it's actually held out rather well. What I mean by this is that there's a definite link between one's soul and one's lifespan (ie body) which we know since a product of BM extracting a soul is for the victim to lose lifespan depending on the quantity, which my theory didn't touch on at all. It's curious that draining the soul drains the body as a result of BM's Fruit. Logically one would expect the soul to weaken: the personality to grow dull, the vigour of the person to drain, but the body to be left untouched. While I haven't officially made the change to the theory yet to adapt to this, the idea I'm currently going with is that this link between body and soul is extremely tight in a human, but the good news is that nothing really was contradicted.
    The fact that the soul contains the voice, personality and memories (their memories are dormant and suppressed, but still there) are all reinforced in the existence of the Homies.

    Anyway, the reason that I will continue to stress the distinction between soul and body and insist that it's only the body that a devil is bound to, is because there are many more problems with saying that it's purely the body than saying it's the soul. If the devil is bound to soul alone, they wouldn't separate on death. The soul is immortal, and this is supported by the existence of the Land of the Dead (where Brook's ice comes from), and the fact that Brook came to consciousness as a soul by the power of his DF sometime after his death. If a devil was tied to the soul, death wouldn't affect it so much. As for your concern that we don't see souls appearing after someone dies, it's worth mentioning that Brook only came to consciousness as a visible soul right before it passed over to the other side, and was rather high in the sky at the time. This leads me to believe that souls are invisible unless a DF power comes into play.

    To be specific, Brook's DF only directly affected his soul during the interim between his death and when he came back to his skeletal body. That was the only time that there was any kind of exception to the rule that a DF only affects a user's body. Everything after this is attributed to being a power that the devil specifically gives; and it's definitely possible that a devil which only is tied to the eater's body can allow a user to manipulate their own soul and other people's souls: it still lives only in the body.

    When I talk about what the devil affects or how it works, I mean the parts that aren't related to the abilities it gives. I don't propose any theory on the limitations of the devils or what they can and can't do beyond this. I know it sounds like a contradiction that something that lives in the body can be used to manipulate the soul, but this is attributed to the power of the devil, not the nature. I'm saying that by nature, the devil is tied only to the body (this is true of every devil; even if they gave no powers, this is how they would work), and this explains just about every piece of evidence we get from the character of Brook and the other things I explain in the souls theory.

    The bulk of your post I can address the same way I addressed @Yuuzume 's above, but to touch on this quickly:
    Yes, actually the devil would keep anything extra distinct. It's important to note, though, that we likely wouldn't get this impression at all since Oda massively bends the rules of any kind of logic in this specific area; and I'm talking about clothes.
    Clothes being used seamlessly with a DF ability (esp Logias) are a massive contradiction to the rules, and when asked about this Oda just said he didn't want a bunch of naked people running around rather than pose an in-world explanation. This indicates that he has no problem being inconsistent and illogical in this area, and since he doesn't have any plot points that centre on this issue, it doesn't negatively impact the experience at all. However, I believe that it is quite significant in addressing this point. We also see this kind of thing happen to weapons to the same end, where what should destroy them doesn't if it comes from the DF power of the person holding it.

    My 'devils' theory takes the cue from Oda and doesn't try to explain that a devil ties itself to the clothes or anything like that, in spite of visual evidence suggesting otherwise. I think clothes are exactly the same as extra body parts would be in this scenario. The devil isn't tied to them, but for the same reason that clothes are transformed, they also will be transformed. This is massively supported throughout the Punk Hazard arc, and I'm thinking of Caesar's goat horns being transformed (though admittedly he might have been born with them) into gas, and Monet's legs being transformed.

    In conclusion, if everything about DF transformations had a consistent in-universe explanation, you'd be right and extra body parts would be incapable of transforming with a DF if a devil was tied only to the body, but because of the way clothes behave in OP, it becomes at least too ambiguous to use as evidence, and at most a non-issue entirely.


    So much more I can address that's being discussed, but I simply don't have the time :P You guys are making this too much fun.
     
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  15. Yuuzume

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    I don't mind cases like Big Mom's or Brook's after his soul got back to his body and their ability to control souls.I did say myself that each devil fruit is unique so such peculiarities are a given considering the big variety of evil fruits.But that would be the case if every devil affected only the body,like you said.So the part that troubles me,is the interval between Brook's death and the time when his soul returned to his body.Pesonally,I believe that a devil fruit like Brook's and big mom's alters the soul it affects fundamentally,giving it the properties you mention,but let's assume that even normal souls have those properties,like you suggest yourself.Even if that was the case,Brook's and the homies' souls would be different since they are actually visible when outside of their respective bodies.The only way I can explain that difference is by suggesting that the respective devil fruits altered them.So,even if it as for the time that Brooks soul was separated from his body,his devil fruit had affected him in a way that's fundamentally different than the rest by affecting his soul,while the rest affect only the physical bodies of their users (according to the theory).
     
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  16. Mcguint

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    If souls are just electromagnetic radiation, and Devil Fruits are just containers for electromagnetic radiation-- then, the phenomena that occurs to a body after its consumed is due to the radiation being integrated into the new container. The electromagnetic radiation merges. But, it can't merge more than once because the types of radiation are actually very specific-- involving electromagnetic wavelengths, and specific frequency ranges on the electromagnetic band. In other words, Devil Fruit eaters get tuned to a specific frequency range and that's where the Devil Fruit powers come from. They can't be tuned to more than one frequency/range at the same time otherwise the radiation will kill them (by breaking molecular bonds-- molecular breakdown).

    However, if you can manipulate where the energy goes and how its stored-- it's possible to overcome this limitation. In other words, the radiation needs to remain separated while inside a single container (by however means).

    ---

    I have little more to say on this subject, all I am suggesting is that this is likely to be the connection between souls, bodies, and Devil Fruit abilities.

    ---

    I consider this form of radiation to be the, "Voices" of All Things.
     
  17. Jawahib

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    And this is the part I specifically address :P
    The only exception to the devil living in an eater's body is the interval between Brook's death and the time when he returned to his body. That's a unique aspect of the Yomi Yomi no Mi, and definitely justifiable within the bounds of the theory as being one of the powers of Brook's Fruit. I mean at its most fundamental level it should really be the only power of that DF ("Revive" doesn't imply much else other than putting an eater back into its body after death), so by definition the Yomi Yomi has a power to reside within the eater's soul after they die.

    I have my own beliefs about this specific thing, but none of them matter. It doesn't matter that the devils can alter the properties or behaviour of people's souls, I'm saying that they live in the body and have no other ties to the person. Big Mom's devil is as tied to her soul as Aokiji's devil is tied to the ice he forms. It doesn't manually change the soul by its nature, it does so by its power, making it seem like an exception when it really isn't. Even if the devil could change the eater's soul to that of a teenaged mutant ninja turtle, it'd still be living in the body.

    Let me try putting it to you this way. We know that when a user's body dies, the devil leaves it, indicating if nothing else that the devil is in some way reliant on the body to stay where it is. This is what my theory is saying: that the devil lives only in the body, because we know that no body means no devil.
    Can we say the same of the soul? As in, if the soul were to die, would the devil leave in the same way it does when the body dies? This is the one and only criteria that must be met when working out if the devil lives or is reliant on the soul. The stuff with Brook and Big Mom are covered by the power of the Fruit, not where it naturally lives inside a human. So, let's explore this question

    I think this question is answered for all intents and purposes by the person of Kuma. Based on the definition of souls I've gleaned in the souls theory, Kuma's soul is simply not in his body. He has no memories and no personality: I'd even argue his voice is gone and replaced with some computer program (a computer program that mimics his exact voice, which we know exists by the Pacifista). Yet his Devil Fruit remains (as seen at Marineford). This to me says that the devils aren't intrinsically tied to the soul in the same way they're tied to the body, and it seals the deal for me.

    The reason that Brook's interim is an exception and the other stuff he and BM do aren't exceptions is because the devil stuck around Brook in this time despite him not having any body at all. The only thing it could have possibly have resided in was his soul that was flying around, but the moment he found the body, it disconnected from his soul and re-entered his body. His soul was capable of doing all the things it could do, but the devil became tied to the skeletal body. I go into the evidence about this on the other thread.

    I hope I'm getting across the importance that nothing that Big Mom or Brook have done have convinced or even to me in any way that the devil is tied to the soul, and they don't have the power to do so using just their normal powers.

    Your entire posts rests on this premise which even you don't seem certain about, so I don't know how to address it except for "no one thinks souls are electromagnetic radiation" :)
     
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  18. Yuuzume

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    Brook's power didn't immediately allow him to revive,it just made his soul capable of allowing to return to his body.Also,there is not reall a reason to speciafically believe that it returned to his body even after he found it.For all intents and purposes,Brook is a soul that has gained physical properties through his devil fruit and can manipulate his skeletal body through it.But that's subjective to each perosn's interpretation as soemone could say that the devil resides in Brook's skeletal body,but that interval still troubles me.You say that during that time,the devil resided in Brook's soul but that goes against what you said about the devils residing solely in the bodies of the users and leaving the souls intact.If the devil resided solely in the body,Brook's devil fruit could have worked in an entirely different way,like jump starting his heart and reviving him immediately after he died so that it wouldn't have to leave the body that it resided in.You say the nature of Brook's fruit makes it an exception,but it makes too much of an exception if we accept your premise that the devils reside in the physical body.It's one thing for devil fruits to be special in their nature (different branches of the same tree) and another thing to be this much of an exception (completely different tree altogether).Despite the differences in nature between them,I do believe that all devil fruit originate from a single premise.Yours was that the devil in them resides in the physical body of the user,but I can't see Brook's devil fruit following that reasoning as it resided in/affected his soul,even if it was for a specific tiem span.

    If the soul dies,then the body dies.That's something we learned from big mom,as the life span of the people who got part of their souls sucked got reduced.If the body dies,then the soul dies.Since we don't see souls floating around everywhere,that should be a reason to believe that they perish along with the body.Since the two are connected,we can say both that the devil leaves after the soul perishes and that it leaves after the body perishes.You mention Kuma to support that devil fruits affect the bodies of the user.It's not certain yet if Kuma's soul was moved elsewhere or not,but it's definitely a good point regardless,I happen to agree with it actually.I'm not sure if I've been misunderstood from the start,but I'mnot suggesting that a devil fruit doesn't affect a user body.I wrote a theory about devil fruits myself quite some time ago,and I also suggest that devil fruits fundamentally alter a user's physical body.The point I'm trying to make here is that that doesn't mean that the soul is left untouched.You separate the physical body completely from the soul and see them as something completely separate,but I think that while they are two things that are unique on their own,but are also fundamentally connected.The fact that devil fruits affect the bodies of their users is something that probably no one needs to be convinced of since it's visible in the changes in the bodies of the users.But considering there are cases like Brook's,I can't separate the body entirely with the soul.Perhaps Brook's fruit is the only one that noticeably affects his soul,but as long as there is that exception,it's difficult to accept the premise that all devil fruits affect only the body of the user.I'm not sure what kind of explanation would be required to prove Brook's case is not an exception.But his case is not like Big Mom's whose devil fruit simply affectedher body and made her capable fo affecting souls.Brook's devil fruit essentially gave his soul some of the properties of his physical body,since his soul is only one who can talk by itself and without using a body or object (homies) as a medium.The only explanation I can find for Brook while accepting the premise that devil fruits accept the body,is that the soul is actually part of someone's body.However,not that it's what posses one consciousness and ability to think.When Big Mom imparted part of her soul to create a homie like zeus,it didn't have the same consciousness as Big Mom,it had its own.So Kuma's example supports that devil fruits affect the body but not that they don't affect the soul,that's because Law's power can switch the "consciousness" of someone and most likely not their soul.And if the body and the soul are connected then,like I said,it also explains Brook's case where his soul was affected.
     
  19. Mcguint

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    Well, Jawahib.

    If you don't want an opinion that's supposed to explain the things you guys are attempting to explain, then don't take it. Just try figuring it out on your own and see how that works for ya.

    I've explained this on several occasions, and do you know what people use to find ghosts? It's EMF devices [Electromagnetic Field]. So, yeah, I've explained this before too-- the only time you ever see EMF devices in a story.. including things like Log Poses which act based on this very thing.. is in stories that involve ghosts/souls.

    Anyway, I'm not gonna bother.
     
  20. Jawahib

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    #20 Jawahib, Jun 21, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2018
    I've got to massively disagree here, but it's a fair point. If there exists a "Land of the Dead" then there exists an afterlife in the OP world then the soul does not die after death. It may be entirely likely that the lifespan reduction caused by BM's DF is simply a peculiarity of the DF, and not indicative of the usual dynamic. It would be extremely counter-intuitive if souls died after physical death - the entire reason for their existence is to postulate some kind of afterlife.

    At the moment I know it's ambiguous and could go either way, but it'd take a lot to persuade me that the soul dies when the body does.

    Actually there are plenty of reasons to believe this. The most poignant being that Brook admits that while he can restore himself after decapitation, shattering his bones is what it would take to actually wound him:
    [​IMG]
    Ie, destroying his body would kill him and thus I include that the devil is tied to the body. I touch on that piece of evidence in my souls theory and there are others if you want to explore it some more.

    Ah, this issue is here because you're looking at it a bit differently to how I explained it.

    My theory does not talk about what a devil can do. It talks about where it lives. Specifically, the part of the human it's dependent on to stay connected to them. It has absolutely nothing to do with what the devil does, except in the case of Brook, where the power of the devil is to specifically live inside his soul for the time between his death and going back to his body. Forget Brook for now though. My theory says that the devil lives purely inside the body.

    This definition does not change depending on what a devil's power is. If the devil's power is to allow people to swap souls (like Law's Shambles), it still lives inside the body. If the devil's power is to do anything at all to a soul, it still lives inside the body. The rule specifically is "unless a devil's power allows it to do otherwise, it must live inside the eater's body". The rule allows for exceptions, but it insists that the general case is that they live only inside the body.

    Where the devil lives and what it does has no connection, unless a devil's powers specifically include to change its habitation. For example, a Devil Fruit that has the power to move from person to person would have the power to act contrary to the general case. This doesn't in the least upset my theory. A Devil Fruit that has the power to leave a person and go back to being a Fruit has the power to act contrary to the general case. This also doesn't upset the theory. A Devil Fruit that has the power to move from the person's body to the soul has the power to act contrary to the general case. This doesn't upset the theory.

    Here's an analogy to kind of explain what you're doing from my perspective.
    I tell you gravity is a force that forces all things to the centre of the Earth. You say "Ah, so why aren't I sinking through the floor?", and then I say "because the floor's pushing you back up". Then you say "Ah but why don't balls keep falling when I catch them?" and I say "because your body's holding it up". Then you say "Ah, but how come clouds don't fall to the Earth?" and I say "because of something to do with air density and water vapour." Then you say "Ah, but why aren't the Moon or Sun falling to the Earth?" and I say "because the Moon orbits the Earth and the Earth orbits the Sun, and orbits go in circles". Then you go and say "Yeah your gravity theory is nice, but there are way too many exceptions for me to be convinced that it's true". The problem isn't that gravity is wrong, it's that there are many different ways to counter it. A better explanation would be "Unless there is a stronger force preventing it, gravity will force all things to the centre of the Earth" (I know these aren't necessarily correct definitions of gravity, but it gets the point across).
    This is the last thing in your post I haven't addressed I believe.
    The example of Zeus (and Prometheus) is quite a curious one, but I think that this again can be largely dismissed as a peculiarity of the Soul Soul Fruit. We don't know what "part" of a soul means by any normal standards, so it makes sense that an entity which can take divide up souls can choose how to define this division. The soul contains the personality and consciousness, but the Soul Soul Fruit allows the eater to filter it so it only has certain personality traits or certain parts of the original's consciousness. Zeus seems to contain the more innocent and childlike personality traits of Big Mom (which we know she has from her past), so there's no real issue there.
    My theory only explains what an entire soul is, not a partially divided one, and because Big Mom's power is yet to be specified or quantified, I can just pump out theories relating to her power that would very cleanly explain everything we've seen while maintaining all my other theories.

    Ok man, will do :)
     
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