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How Believable is One Piece?

Discussion in 'One Piece General' started by Jawahib, Feb 9, 2019.

  1. Jawahib

    Both Exotic and Professor
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    Woah what? You saying here that you don't think the sword slashes connected and Buggy predicts the slashes ahead of time like Katakuri did against Luffy? Interesting thought, but wasn't there a distinct moment where Zoro was satisfied that he'd sliced through Buggy and then when Buggy keeled over sliced in half, he used Zoro's confidence to hit him with a surprise attack? I could be remembering that wrong, but I think Zoro would have noticed if he hadn't made contact with anything at all. I think it's pretty well established that Buggy is immune to swords not because he can slice his body up ahead of time, but it's a property of his body that it can be sliced up and put back together no matter what, almost as intrinsic as Luffy's rubberiness.

    Buggy's Fruit is actually a bit of an enigma to me, so I'll go on a bit of a tangent covering my thoughts on it here (skip to the next quote response if you don't care lol).
    The way I see it, every cell in Buggy's body is connected in a way that ignores actual space while it's in his sphere of control. A new property has been added to his body that says that there's a certain level of teleportation or perhaps other-worldliness that means that everything in his body is always exactly connected the way it naturally is, in spite of physical space. Additionally he is able to freely engage this ability by disconnected whatever part of his body he likes and hovering it around, controlling it as though it was never attached at all.
    Cutting intrinsically involves disconnected two parts of the body from each other that were otherwise necessary to be connected in order for the body to fulfil a certain function. In the case of smaller things like paper cuts, two pieces of skin disconnect from each other due to the physical separation of their bonds and thus blood is allow to flow out from the cut. Buggy's body however doesn't rely on a physical connection between the two flaps of skin, but remains connected through his DF's property, so cutting him won't impact anything and he'd freely be able to put himself back together using his aforementioned ability to manually control parts of his body.

    The simplest way I could explain it is that it's not his physical form that keeps his body intact, but something else entirely that allows him to move beyond anything physically binding. I realise I'm not doing a good job explaining this and that I'd need a lot more time to do so, so I think I'll just drop it here.
    Oh ma gaawwwwd why do people keep doing this to ma boi Zoro. The Zoro vs Monet fight goes like this:
    Zoro is chilling against a wall watching Tashigi fight it out against Monet.
    It starts getting too rough for Tashigi when we see Monet start tearing into her shoulder.
    Zoro's like "yeah nah that's enough" so he sends a haki imbued air slash from his position on the wall to lightly cut Monet on the cheek, which makes Monet release Tashigi to address him (probably to intimidate her so she releases Tashigi freely rather than risk Tashigi's shoulder with a proper attack).
    He then gives his speech about being a fierce animal before performing the famous Haki-less slash that incapacitates Monet.

    People always like to forget that Zoro cut her twice (I've gone through this exact conversation like 3 times on opf already lol) and don't seem to realise that it's the first one that opens a pretty massive gateway in how we understand air slashes.
    Well seeing as this is a pretty big pivot point for you and how you'd see Haki, I'll dig up the references for you to check out
    [​IMG][​IMG]
    (go to 1:44)
    The manga has him far beyond melee range when the cut lands with no indication that he ran forward, cut her lightly, and ran backwards (which would be the only explanation for keeping Haki at melee range) and the anime has a very distinct air-slash effect. Pretty clear in both mediums, especially the anime, that this was a Haki imbued air slash.
    Well I mean magical air is a theory at best. I'm not sure where the eyes vs ears thing came from, but it was clear all throughout Sky Island that Mantra gave the priests and Enel the ability to superhumanly predict the action that an opponent was preparing to do based on the slightest shift in their movements.
    Well, this isn't so much a rebuttal but a deflection: "it's not an issue since it does the same thing anyway". I'm identifying an inconsistency. You haven't told me anything to make me disbelieve that apart from indicating that it doesn't bother you since it's basically doing the same thing. But it's not the same thing. One reads movements/intent while another reads the actual future. There's a HUGE discrepancy there, and just because they're both applied in similar scenarios doesn't mean that these abilities are interchangeable.

    Wait a sec, this contradicts this:
    I was asking if you thought that Crocodile was hit by water because water is the weakness of every Devil Fruit, namely sea water's ability to paralyse them. But now you're referring to it as Crocodile's "anti-element". Unless you mean to say that water is every Devil Fruit's anti-element? I'm a bit confused, but it might just be that I wasn't clear enough originally.

    If nothing else you saying that you don't like the wiki's description says that it isn't certain from the story exactly how it is that Luffy hits Crocodile. At any rate, the Rayleigh quote I think tips the scales towards the wiki's description that it's all about solidity, but if you're happy to simply accept it as manga magic then I suppose there's not too much to discuss here.
    Saying "a great majority of fans will not question this" is as good as saying "yes it's a problem but it doesn't bother anyone so it's OK" as far as I'm concerned. It absolutely is a problem that characters don't start pulling this crap on the small scale because there are heaps of tight spots when it would have been incredibly useful, and we've seen plenty of times characters who wouldn't care about the life span risk (same attitude as Luffy) be in tight spots where a small rush of power would be incredibly useful so it's not sufficient to say "no one else does it because it cuts their life short" as far as I'm concerned.

    At any rate, all I'm arguing for is that this may impact believability to someone in the tiny minority that isn't in your "great majority". It doesn't even bother me, but it's still an issue that exists. It's one teeny tiny detail that could have major repercussions depending on how it works that is simply overlooked by the story. I can gloss over it when I watch it without much difficulty at all, but all I'm trying to get you to say is that it's simply there.
    That's not the Devil Fruit taking a toll on Luffy, that's Luffy drastically increasing his heart rate in a way that's permitted by his Devil Fruit taking a toll on Luffy. As far as we can tell (at least as far as you and Kia are willing to argue), Gear Second is not an ability of the Gum Gum Fruit, but is activated by Luffy pumping blood through his body to increase his heart rate. We've already agreed that Luffy's DF gives Luffy no other powers other than "I am made of rubber" anyway, so I don't know why you're trying to use it to counter the point that only Law's Devil Fruit power directly drains his stamina, unless you believe that Luffy being made of rubber has a permanent detrimental effect on him by virtue of it being a DF power, which is not supported in anyway by the story since Luffy showed no signs of a reduction in stamina after eating the Gum Gum Fruit in his childhood.

    But that's exactly my issue. What I'm arguing for in this thread is that every time you're in a position where the only way for the story to make sense is "just a matter of rationalising the most likely explanation", you have a flaw in the story. It means you're doing the work for Oda and this can lead to all sorts of odd problems, especially when you think that your "most likely explanation" is the truth in the story and other people have different ones. Easiest example is both of our understandings of the Crocodile situation. The reason that we both have such heavily differing explanations as to why he's weak to water is not a matter of one of us incorrectly "rationalizing the most likely explanation", but there simply not being information in the story.

    I take great issue when people try to sell their "explanations" as story-fact and use it as some kind of objective defense of the story.
    It's like me showing you a house, but there's a giant hole in one of the walls. Luckily you've got a small rock in your pocket, so you hold it in front of you so it perfectly covers the hole from your perspective. You then say "what hole? I can't see a hole. Everything seems perfectly in order to me". Now the problem with this isn't that you're simply saying what you see in front of your face (that there is no hole), which might be fair enough, but that you're pretending like you're not holding up the rock that covers the hole and that everyone should be able to see what you see despite them possibly not having a, or having a different rock in their pockets that they use to cover the hole.
    From my perspective, this exact thing is what you both are doing when you're addressing the issues I raise. When I say Gear Second's activation isn't sufficiently explained to prevent odd things happening, I see one person using a rock that says "calf pumps" on it and another that says "Tibetan monk-style" on it. When I say it's insufficiently explained how Logia's intangibility works, I get some rocks that say "Manual", another which says "Automatic", and ours which says "On/off". One rock for water vs Crocodile says "magic anti-element" while another says "forced solidity". The only way to repair the hole (or rather, prove it wasn't there in the first place) is to find the explanation in the story that addresses the concerns raised.
    I don't care how well the rocks explain it, the issue is that there's a hole that the rocks need to cover in the first place.
     
  2. Kia

    Kia
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    The first time Zoro cut Monet and interrupted the fight with Tashigi he made her bleed. It was a Haki infused air slash. Otherwise, how would she have bled? But I typed this before I saw how thoroughly Jawa covered the response. So yeah. He got the reference and everything. Saved me going for it. ^_^


    in a manner rapidly enough that his body can only sustain/accommodate it because of the Gum Gum fruit. Lucci even says so. Others could only do lesser versions of this. ^_^
     
  3. Jawahib

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    I literally say this in the previous sentence dude.
    I'm not sure why this was just ignored. Gear Second is an ability that involves Luffy pumping his blood to increase his heart rate, and his Devil Fruit power permits (or accommodates/sustains) this at an extreme level to give him a speed buff. Seiryu was arguing that Law wasn't the only character whose DF had a direct stamina drain on its user by referencing Gear 2nd. I responded to this by saying that Gear 2nd is not a power of Luffy's DF, but rather a power that is accommodated by Luffy's DF, so it doesn't count. I'm not sure where the confusion is?
     
  4. Seiryu

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    Wait, what? Buggy is hella weak, so he can only successfully dodge when very low level fighters are slashing at him. Buggy has made zero improvements to his combat capabilities since the series started. What used to be strong is a drop in the ocean. Correct context for everything.

    For the Zoro instance you are referring, it is when he first tries to save Nami. I don't recall any surprise attack...Zoro's reaction is that way because a clean sword strike has minimal resistance (when people mess up, then it doesn't go smoothly). Even for East Blue levels of strength, cutting bone is easy (cutting bone is easy in the real world => butchers easily do it with a cleaver and katana blades are even more potent).

    Buggy has to be able to see it coming. If Buggy has kenbunshoku (a complete impossibility from his normal human levels of physical capabilities => Buggy is probably only around 1 douriki), then the situations you are posing are possible. They are impossible in the context of what Buggy is physically capable of (even a moderate level swordsman => very beginning of the Grand Line) easily cuts Buggy because they are too fast for Buggy to see the strike and respond.
    Yes, in theory, the cellular aspect would be possible, but again Buggy is way too "uncoordinated" (astronomically inadequate physical capabilities to even get close to that). We already see in the Buggy Arc that he is at his limit of body parts at the end (looses track and gets kicked in the nuts I think). It would potentially be astronomically powerful in the right hands, yes. Buggy is not.
    Yes we should be 100% agreeing (once we establish the context of what Buggy can and cannot do).
    A haki imbued "pound-cannon attack" is the explanation in my mind (astronomically weaker than his named attacks). This is where the "manga magic" comes into play. There is no physics that can explain slashing the air creating a travelling slash. The projectile slashes are already "magical". So magic plus magic. Because it comes from the sword, it is still "part of the sword" (thus does not contradict the law of being able to transfer haki to a second object). It is B.S. because it is two layers of "magic".
    I'm sorry, I think I'm the only person here that would gladly take 3x (that's minuscule for common misconceptions => immediately the "requirements" of a crew level nakama).

    Ah, thanks for the manga page (I'm only remembering her other successful cuts). Why isn't it just a haki imbued string, toothpick, or other random object? Zoro is more than strong enough to just throw something and have it cut her. Either way, it is haki, but literally any object could have been thrown at her with Zoro's strength and haki (the haki would immediately make something soft still a weapon => Rayleigh's stick becomes probably harder than steel with his levels).
    There is no "real world" explanation for something that is not physically possible. Mantra is "ear-based", something that does need to be clarified. Katakuri is definitely "eye-based" (he has to see the environment to help trigger the foresight). He appears to be able to do "mantra" version too in that when he closes his eyes and concentrates, he gets the shady view of the future (when he figures out Snakeman's mechanics).
    No...there is a misconception on mantra. It is not "only reading movements". That is the problem I am trying to get at. They both do the exact same thing. Let's try a different analogy: if someone has back pain, a chiropractor, massage therapist, acupuncturist, reflexologist, etc. are all getting the exact same physiological changes to the back. They all use completely different techniques. Mantra and Katakuri's vision-based kenbunshoku are analogous to this. The use of "mantra" by Katakuri should help clear this up (it is different which is why the visualization is different).
    Oh, then I just misread. Water is the "anti-element" for Croc. It is never going to do anything against anyone else.
    And that's the reality of it. Oda doesn't have to satisfy everyone and nor should he (he's going to put a lower quality work as a whole spreading his concentration too thin). Whether you like it or not, we will never get all the answers we want. That's reality. Maybe I just accept it because of my personality, but from my perspective, it's just a matter of time (nothings going to change in that even the databooks will only cover details to a certain extent). You would have to submit SBS questions. That's the only loophole I can think of (I wouldn't submit a question unless the B.S. hit a breaking point => I would submit a question purposefully rubbing in how he ruined the series and of course it wouldn't get answered, but I can't do anything else other than stop buying the manga).
    Who do you think would literally kill themselves off? This goes back to physiology, but the arteries and veins are absolutely essential to health/wellness. Because blood is carrying nutrients (removing waste products is equally important), it literally is the "life blood" for the body. Gear Second is putting such an excessive strain, it is tearing arteries and veins (AH! It is unique to Luffy because his rubber gives him a greater leeway than ALL other humans and all other fruit users). Even after 1x usage, the small unnamed arteries/veins are completely torn and EVERY cell in the area (muscle, skin, nerves, etc.) all begin to die from starving. They already kill off a significant part of their body after their first usage.

    Hopefully this conveys both the physiology and the rationale behind giving Luffy the Gomu Gomu ability (on a personal interest question: do you think Oda had a plan for Luffy's Gear Fifth [Luffy's awakening] as part of the 5 year plan?).
    Because I connect the above points is why it doesn't bother me. If I do my job, it shouldn't bother you either.
    Nope, both of us just did an inadequate job of overcoming your bias (the above I think should do it). The stronger the bias, the stronger the analogy/explanation/whatever to change the perspective.
    And the above should speak to what I'm conveying. It's all much more connected and thought out than you think (your percentage was ~90% right?). And I'll say it again, for someone with no science/biology/medical background Oda (same goes for his team since they are all aspiring mangaka) just work astronomically harder than every fan thinks in order to research to the point of graduate level comprehension. The lack of thinking this much work is humanly possible literally is a level of "disrespect" to me (and from a Japanese perspective). Elite of the elite pro athletes encounter a similar problem where the average person just thinks the pro gets that good because they are "just a gifted athlete" (and don't recognize the full time job of practice and mastery).

    Time will play itself out. Oda's work is as simple as I say it is (conveying the Gear Second topic and the eventual Croc/water thing). If you don't want to acknowledge the facade of complexity, that's your choice. Because 80% of the puzzle is already put together, it is only going to get easier and easier to predict the upcoming events. I want to enjoy connecting the dots, and the more accuracy others have, the more I enjoy it. So it is a selfish driven motivation, but that is part of my "mod work". And I'm going to put in more work than most people would be willing to (the 3x is something I'd take any day...haha the facade of complexity is going to take the cake).

    Let's go back to the Croc part then. First off, water is only specific to Croc (trying to apply this to any other fruit user is B.S. to me and to be honest, I don't understand any rationale on how it applies to any other situation so that is part of my misreading the first question => yes I will hold people that show high levels of analysis to a higher standard even if they don't want it). Do you acknowledge the presence of "anti-elements" for the series? What level of "magic" do you associate with a true "anti-element" (vs. the non-true anti-elements like Aokiji/Akainu). Just like the Gear Second part, it's all connected.
    I'll be my usual blunt self and say this is a terrible analogy. All that's needed for One Piece discussions is the right context (because of the 100% connectivity for everything except haki and the recent B.S.). I don't care if people acknowledge the misconception (I don't care about being right and take nothing from it). I only am driven by more enjoyable discussions in the future. I will put in a whole lot of work to change people's perspectives because it creates a better read in the future. I know I am going to rub some people the wrong way, but I was given the right advice years ago (on the forum) that it isn't my problem If someone wants to take it personally.

    The very brief little spat between you guys should reflect the tightrope I'm trying to navigate. Because I at least try to minimize the negative side, at least I can decrease the number of people and the instances of negative bias. Yes, I am trying to change your bias. However, the content will speak for itself and this thread directly reflects that. My years of experience (both with the bias changing and microanalysis of One Piece) are probably why I do not deviate from what/how I do things. I don't think I've ever directly stated it, but if all of the members that don't like my "most likely situation", can you present an alternative? I would never turn down someone presenting something and that's exactly what I want (good reads for me). People that don't have enough analysis will leave out at least one if not multiple breadcrumbs. These aren't bad reads for me, IF they are willing to increase the accuracy in the future (I really liked Bufford because he showed astronomical growth before he got banned, but it was relative to absolute illogical theories initially, but hell it was at least astronomical improvement).

    Unfortunately, the lack of options (only 20% remaining content), the "fun" will be less than before. That's just the reality of it. However, there are still major plot points I have no idea what the original 5 year plan twist is. I've come to enjoy the process of seeing Oda connect the dots, and I think I love the series more because of it.
    Ah, never mind..you changed my opinion on your analogy here (just have one hella long run-on paragraph if you're addressing me..although I think the above tangent should still be relevant). Yes, as long as we are thorough enough in the discussions, we should be able to find the appropriate "rock".

    Ah, so I don't think I've ever posed it to you (I know I asked Yuz). Is there something you can point to other than the "hard sell" that rubs you the wrong way? Another good question, if you go back to Kia's post, if you take out the "if you're incapable of following physiology" and read it through, does the message we were trying to convey come across more readily?

    I want feedback, no one can provide other than comments on being an ass. So Tony is correct that I am "ripping" posts apart. The two of you are probably perfect examples that every fan (including myself) is missing breadcrumbs. I will hold Oda and everyone here to a high standard, but the quality of the series necessitates so. The "fun" (of OMG GODA! plot twists) is going to steadily decrease. They are there, but they are few in number. So trying to find "fun" out of something else is necessary in my mind.
    So for that quote, I'm talking about the slash that makes her go psychotic (Zoro says himself that if he uses busoushoku, she dies). So just in case, does the "magic" on "magic" provide enough of an alternative to the contradiction of air haki? If not, we already see the astronomical increase of structural durability from haki that Zoro could throw any object at her and get the same result.
    No no no. We are discussing completely separate topics if you are applying the "endurance" aspect to the Gear Second topic. I thought we went on a logia/element creation tangent (I'm too lazy to go back and check). That's why I bring up Law. Every use of "creation" (all "elemental" paramecia, all logia, and all awakenings) all are limited by physical energy/endurance. And thus my conundrum. I have to be excessively blunt to not have misinterpretations and literally beat the dead horse over and over.
     
  5. Jawahib

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    I really feel like most of this discussion is operating on a misunderstanding, so I'm gonna respond to your post out of order trying to clear things up.
    I gather from this that you're trying to convince me that it shouldn't bother me. This will achieve nothing. It already doesn't bother me. All I'm trying to say is that "it" exists at all. That there's a problem; a teeny, tiny, miniscule, ultimately meaningless problem, but a problem nonetheless. Simply saying "it doesn't bother me" is only possible when you acknowledge that it exists, which is all I'm trying to get you to acknowledge, and as far as I can tell you already have.
    I'm not saying "this is a problem that should bother everyone", but that "this is an objective issue since we aren't sure how the missing information will affect the stakes in fights". The problem doesn't care that it doesn't bother you, that it doesn't bother me, or that it might bother someone else. It's still there. When I watched it I was more than happy to give Oda the benefit of the doubt and say "oh OK that's just something that only Luffy can do as indicated by the rubberiness of the pumping effect". And that's all the information I need to be satisfied by it.
    It's a tiny detail, but it still has the potential to affect the stakes if we get an explanation revealed later for why it works, and that it may have been applied in other contexts.
    Haha well I'll certainly take the advice about keeping it one paragraph on board lol. I just figure that paragraphs make it less annoying to approach a text wall, but it figures that you wouldn't be bothered by it :P

    Anyway, this still isn't what I'm getting at exactly. The onus shouldn't be on us to "find the appropriate "rock"". Of course I'd be happy to do that in other contexts for my own entertainment, but there is no getting around the fact that when there is something we need to hold a rock over, there is something missing in the story.

    If the title of this thread was "How do we think Gear Second works" and we all pooled together ideas to explain it, then I would be absolutely 100% on board with calf muscle pump explanation. In fact, y'all changed my mind on this specific point that there actually is a physiological explanation as opposed to palming it off to the famous "manga magic" like I had been before. But there's no getting around the fact that the reason the thread could exist in the first place is because it was insufficiently explained in the actual story.
    Nope. I think he had plans to make Luffy stronger, but nothing specific. Even the first Gears were introduced without any build-up at all. He'd sort of created a paradox for himself originally where he wanted Luffy to always just beat his opponents but still have them get stronger with each consecutive arc, and in a world as big as One Piece's, there'd rapidly reach a time when previous enemies were astronomically weaker than current/newer ones, which means that Luffy would somehow need to get astronomically stronger to keep up. The "band-aid" solution for this problem was the Gears which let Luffy stumble through the latter part of Paradise well enough, but the final "fix" he implemented was Haki, where now Luffy just needs to keep practicing with it to get stronger so it's easier to justify rapid power boosts (latest example being future-sight).
    There can't really be a misconception because the story explicitly told us in two instances that Mantra simply couldn't predict intent-less actions, while Katakuri showed us that it explicitly could. This is an inconsistency. Regardless of how I conceive of Mantra, you can't get around this - at least the story certainly makes no effort to which is my point. The "sight vs hearing" based explanation is grossly underdeveloped if it's supposed to serve as an explanation with any substance. On top of that, sight-based K-Haki doesn't explain why random elements suddenly become foreseeable. The thing you've posited to explain it is that Haki is somehow in the "magical air" which is nonsense at worst and just a good theory at best. As far as the story itself is concerned, it's still a pretty explicit inconsistency.
    This to me is enough to end this specific conversation on. Even if you think no one cares, you're agreeing that these things exist.
    I know this isn't your point, but to directly answer this I'd say Zoro. Zoro proved he was willing to cut his legs off to continue fighting, I can easily imagine him risking a short life for a temporary power boost. There are loads of characters who have this resolve in the OP universe.
    OK, so let me recap quickly:
    I said we don't know how much, if at all, the use of Devil Fruit powers impact their users. I then said the only character to have been shown to be directly impacted by the use of their Devil Power was Law, whose stamina drains when he makes a Room.
    You then rebutted and said that Luffy's Gear Second (you specifically referenced his "doping") is an example of a Devil Fruit power that drains their stamina, so we can reason.
    I said no, because Gear Second isn't an ability of the Gum Gum Fruit, it's an ability only made accessible by the Devil Fruit power but isn't directly accessed.
    You then said
    Which I honestly cannot understand how it relates to the discussion at all. In response to this part, however:
    Absolutely no evidence for that in the story. We have no reason to believe that it costs any energy at all for a DF user to access their powers, but plenty to believe the contrary. In fact to me, the fact that Law is the only one who explicitly cites a stamina drain from making Rooms tells me that it doesn't cost the other DF users energy and that he's a special case.
    Sorry I honestly don't know what you mean by "hard sell" here, but I get the feeling it's a question I'd wanna answer :D

    Yes. The alternative is "it simply is not explained sufficiently in the story". You're making it out to sound like it's a 0-error perfect masterpiece, which is true if you're willing to do Oda's work for him and fill in all the gaps he leaves behind.

    Is my perspective really that hard to grasp? That the only way to explain these gaps is if we do the work for Oda. Because you're disagreeing with me by doing the work for Oda and creating original explanations that aren't in the story. Why should you or I be expected to do the work for him? Is it just a case of my standards being a lot higher? The way I see it, I'm the only one keeping my bias out of the conversation, because I'm the only one going off the information in the story without accessing my own knowledge or experiences. When you tell me "it doesn't bother me" or "it shouldn't bother you", these are inherently biased opinions because why should I care if you're bothered or not or what gives you the power to tell me what I should or shouldn't be bothered by? I am simply following the logic in the story and identifying a gap - leaving my own bias (the fact that I don't actually care either) totally out of the equation. You've accused me of having a negative bias a fair bit, but honestly I'm just seeing a positive bias in your guys' responses in what is supposed to be a discussion about the objective content. Every time you cite an explanation that is not in the story, you're introducing your positive bias.

    Well, I'm not sure how to answer that because the data is awfully inconsistent. We were lead to believe that if you were able to force a Logia into solidity, you could hit them like a normal person, explaining Crocodile's weakness to water. This was contradicted by Aokiji, who is already solid, not being naturally prone to physical damage.

    However, based on Enel (it's physically impossible for lightning to be considered "solid", especially if we presume that Enel's elemental form is pure energy in the same way Kizaru's is) my own assumption was that if you introduced a mechanic/element that nullified the Logia element's natural capacity to disperse, you could hit them normally. So sand can't easily disperse when it's wet and Lightning can't conduct around rubber. This somewhat accounts for Aokiji's Fruit, but you'd need to assume that his DF came with an "artificial" capacity to disperse, since ice is inherently undispersable (don't think that's a word lol), so that his natural weakness would be anything that prevented ice from being ice anymore. Similar logic is introduced to us with Akainu and Ace, where attacking the element would directly affect the Logia (and later confirmed when a Heat Ball burns Monet's snow-wings). So my assumption is that Aokiji needs to be overwhelmed with heat to be wounded, since that's a direct attack on his icy body.
    All of this is pure speculation, and I acknowledge it's probably wrong, but it's obviously been made mostly redundant by Haki anyway. But it sets up a direct answer to your question about what level of magic I ascribe to the anti-element, and my answer is that the anti-element prevents the Logia's element from behaving like itself, especially in ways related to dispersion.

    Don't have any direct quotes, but as far as being an ass or a "spat" between me and Kia: I don't allow discussions to affect personal influences (unless of course they become personal in nature). I don't care what attitude is shown, as long as there's a willingness to discuss and points being made, I have something to respond to. I don't think any less of anyone for how they naturally formulate arguments, so nothing is taken personally by me (and I certainly intend nothing to be taken from me either).
     
  6. Seiryu

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    From my bias (just like the physiology for Gear Second since I honestly forgot what this side tangent is on), Oda is still 100% connected, researched, and planned out for almost all of his content. Even this "meaningless problem" shouldn't be a problem completely.
    You and others will have a problem with my means of conveying the information, but the information I provide is still valid (and why I actively seek feedback rather than solely depending on my reads). It is mutually beneficial, but it won't be viewed that way if an "attack" is perceived.

    I would assume the word choice ("conceding" or something along those lines earlier) was something like a peace offering, but I don't do this for that purpose.

    The reality is that a lot of casual fans will lose the volume of "OMG WTF?!" moments that drew them into the series (there still are some and they will have but greater impact, but they are quite spread out in terms of real world time). To me, without a deeper appreciation of Oda's character development (the minor chapter to chapter plot developments), it is only natural that people drift away from the series these last remaining 5-6ish years.

    Just like the B.S., I'm going to try to get ahead of it if I can in any way.

    Oh...we're still on Gear Second. What exactly is the problem you have with the rationale? From what I read through, I thought the various points were already addressed. Or is that last part on the "rubberiness of the pumping effect" an explanation that explains the potential disconnect? This is exactly why for microanalysis, going to broad just kills things.
    Exactly. Pretty much no one else is reading this stuff (some do from what I understand, but probably not much).
    But Oda's human too. Just because he creates a superhuman level of literary art, doesn't mean he's perfect (exactly why I think he hates "G-Oda"). I would argue it isn't Oda's job and that is the purpose of discussion boards/forums. Realistically, if Oda were to try to provide that level of writing he would either lose believability or lose his health.

    And I think this second paragraph here is kind of my point. Oda can only plan so many things out. I'd rather him plan out the stuff to keep the plot as a whole believable. Getting lost in the petty details (exactly what happened above and almost always happens when two people microanlyzing start to go back and forth) is human nature. You are asking Oda to do something humanly impossible. He's already on the verge of ruining the series. This B.S. point would have only come sooner if he tried to micromanage every single detail.

    So I think I have to ask again, what exactly do you find "disconnected" (I don't think I even have a good read on what you don't find "100% connected")?
    Ah...then this is where Oda is completely different from all other mangaka. Every other mangaka loses levels of believability as the series goes on because they don't have thorough enough of a plan. Kubo (Bleach) might have had concepts for later parts of the series, but it is very clear that he only had a concrete plan for the Soul Society arc (and things go to crap immediately after that). Same goes for Kishimoto (Naruto) and after the Naruto/Sasuke split. This I have interview info that Kishi had the original 3 part plan (two time skips) from the very beginning. The poor planning in-between is where the believability then goes to crap too. I dropped the series, but supposedly the ending is excellent because he had that part planned out.

    So I think the results will speak for themselves. It is going to be abstract (and manga magic behind it), but Luffy was meant to have the Gomu Gomu abilities because his final power-up was the determining factor. Oda probably worked his way backwards with the 5 year plan, but if Gear Second/Third (and I assume Fourth too) are such minuscule levels of disconnect then I would assume I at least soften the perspective on the "band-aid" cover-up.

    If it truly was a last minute cover-up, it is almost impossible to have such a high level of connectivity/believability (and again my bias is to have a higher level than your perspective). Would you say Oda is just that good at making up B.S.? I don't think so based on the real B.S. that recently came out. And I use "B.S." because I would view Gear Second as "B.S." if I change my perspective on something thoroughly planned to something created last-minute.
    Maybe this is just because I haven't read/seen anything on Skypeia in almost a decade, but where was that mentioned? I would highly be biased towards bad translations. I can go back to the raw if you can provide the scene. Even "official" translations are bad, so I'm super skeptical. I think going to the source will clear up the differing biases for both of us (and the chain reaction of getting lost in the forest of how we forced our biases).
    This is helpful (minimizing getting lost in the details vs. focusing on the main question). If you do not believe this last point ("element" creation is directly tied to the user's stamina), then there is 0 believability on how elemental fruits work (per my bias at least; if there is no limit, any elemental fruit is being underutilized and they should be automatic wins all the time). If there is no direct correlation, they just create massive projectile attacks constantly. The entire series is the evidence. The stronger the user's "physical capabilities" (which directly correlates to higher levels of stamina like Rayleigh being able to swim to a different island even with massive storms in between in his "out of shape" state), the more "element" they can create. Weaklings early on can only create small amounts. Now that we are on a completely different scale, someone like Cracker or Big Mom (definitely abstract, but same concept of her massive physical abilities allows for the massive application => If Nami has the Soul Soul ability, she can't create even 1% of the Homies => on purpose because from what I'm reading, any weakling can just do whatever they want without the stamina/physical capability restriction) can create an entire army from their ability. There has to be some sort of limit to have believability.

    So I guess the next question is how do you explain people not having unlimited element based on the content?
    Oh well. I just gotta stick with my reads then...but to go along the tangent, I've probably seen most of these discussions in some other variation and seen Oda stick to his facade of complexity. It isn't what people want to hear, but that's how Oda writes. And just like the above part, places like OPF are going to die off if the fans don't appreciate the build up.
    And based on what I've read so far, I'm at least making a point for >90% connectivity. It's all there, and getting the right info should clarify. The facade of complexity is the reality of Oda's writing.

    I probably shouldn't have used the "bother" part, but I'll reference the level of "problem" we are discussing. If it is such a minuscule problem, chances are a great majority of the fans don't even think about it (there is enough believability they just move on along with the plot). I'm going to be blunt that this desire for an impossible level of detail from Oda is a major contributing factor to all of these discussions. I will still go back and forth, but I would hope the above part changes part of your perspective on it (ah: would you want these minuscule details at the cost of decreased believability?). Based on what is humanly possible for Oda (his hospitalization and the recent B.S. and the resulting potential of the series completely falling apart from it), I think there would be a delayed but direct correlation of excessive levels of detail and Oda burning out and crashing.

    Ah, the "negative" is underestimating Oda. If I'm referencing that, I'm directly referencing the 100% connectivity. It's all there. Again, for some of these things, he is operating at a graduate level of comprehension. He is so thorough, he has a relative mastery of even his petty references/sources of inspiration. This is why the 5 year plan is going to exceed what you are describing/thinking happened. The believability of the series continuing is the proof of that (to go back to the every other mangaka part). And again, this directly ties to the facade of complexity. Because everyone thinks One Piece is massively complex, it is only human to think it cannot be 100% connected. The simplicity creates both and THAT is the literary mastery of it. Ah, gotta save that for the other massive discussion...
    Wait...I'm completely lost here. Where is haki or "anti-element" ever shown with Aokiji? I can't recall him ever getting hit by either (there is no anti-element because of the B.S. advantages). The only thing somewhat related is the scene where Whitebeard "would have killed" an admiral if he used haki with his attack (they survived because his health failure limited his mastery level of athleticism/coordination to produce busoushoku => using a high level fruit attack requires a similar level of concentration so a good analogy would be trying to swich a jump shot while dribbling a soccer ball with one leg and keeping a hoolahoop going; Completely possible but requires massive training to get good at and probably requires breaking down into parts). So probably same thing: have to go to the source rather than get lost in the details.
    Thanks, that definitely helps me at least. And if only we all could have this mindset we'd all get better reads/discussions. I'd say that as an outside reader of the back and forth, your tone 100% changed though. We can all try to minimize our biases, but a complete elimination is not humanly possible. I try my best to do the same, but I know myself well enough to know I will "punch back" after taking too many jabs from someone.
     
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  7. Jawahib

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    And this is where the major misunderstanding is. The details I am concerned with are not petty ones, they are ones that affect the stakes of the story. Luffy's arms not deflating after he blows into it with air affect how this system works in the OP world, and this could have repercussions at a later part of the story.
    Imagine a Franky/Vegapunk invention down the line that utilises this exact property. Let's say (because it's the only one I can think of) a hot air balloon but instead of using hot air, someone blows into once and it never deflates. Someone asks "why isn't the air escaping?" and the response is "it's just like Luffy's Gear Third". That's a pretty useless invention since it wouldn't be able to fly, so something a bit more exotic: inflatable shields. Maybe a material that you blow into and it becomes hard as steel without ever needing to close the mouthpiece.
    We find here a big problem, because you couldn't say that the rule wasnt established since it clearly was with Gear Third. It's only now that the rule is actually being used outside of Gear Third that this becomes an issue. Me believing Gear Third is entirely reliant on me believing that Oda will never apply its rule in another context like ones I've described, and that very fact means that the story is missing crucial information to make it believable at an in-universe level. So to clarify: when a hole like the one raised by Gear Third appears, Oda hobbles himself because he cannot now access the physics of inflation/deflation without it breaking the consistency established by Gear Third. Same as Gear Second. Oda can't ever bring up mini-Gear Seconds in normal people (calf muscle pumps), or a suicide-by-heart-acceleration, before he explains exactly how Luffy activates it.

    Besides that, it absolutely is possible to have a story as long as One Piece and have it still be perfectly consistent. A throwaway line explaining how Gear Second is activated, a bandaid over Luffy's arm when he activates Gear Third; tiny details to cover the important holes in the story. Thats how consistency is maintained.

    Also, I'm seeing a disconnect with these two parts
    You're maintaining the claim that One Piece is 100% connected right after using the "he's only human" defense to defend against a claim that he wasn't 100% connected. Unless we mean different things by "connected", in which case I'll ask you to clarify in your words what you mean when you say One Piece is 100% connected, this seems to be a pretty inconsistent perspective.

    This to me comes across as a kid sitting in a super hard maths test, then later he gets a few questions wrong and he's there with his mother and the teacher. The teacher says "sorry you got 6 questions wrong", but the mother tries to win the marks back by saying "he's only human. Just because he can do a superhuman level of maths, doesn't mean he's perfect". Like, sure Mum, I get that, but he still got the questions wrong. You can't really get around that fact. Same thing with Oda in this scenario. When he makes an error in consistency I don't say "Aha! He's an awful author". I'm just saying "He made these errors in consistency" so telling me "he's only human" doesn't actually achieve much.

    Idk anything about Bleach, but Naruto's ending was far from excellent. The last 20 or so chapters were utter nonsense and the final 5 (final Naruto vs Sasuke), while somewhat satisfying, still felt incredibly forced since Sasuke's motivations had been nothing but a plot device rather than a character attribute for about half the series and he did something of a backflip just to trigger the final showdown. But this would be too long if I went into this and I don't think there'd be much to gain :P

    Whaat? The Gears weren't that brilliant in comparison to most of the rest of the series. Gear Second I'll admit had a bit of brilliance in how the rubbery properties of his blood vessels and heart were utilised, but both Gears still have quite a few problems that as far as I can determine are the results of their hasty introduction; the biggest of which is the breach of basic inflation/deflation rules present in Gear Third. Fundamentally though Oda just went "Really fast" on one hand and "Really big" on the other and tried to come up with in-universe explanations to insert them in. So as far as a direct answer for you: yes I think Oda's just that good at making up BS, but I think you're giving him much more credit than he deserves when it comes to the Gears.
    Nono I'm referring to Gum Gum Daze and
    Ricochet Gatling Gun here. These are two separate, explicit incidents that tell us that Mantra could not predict intent-less actions.

    So all you're doing is providing evidence for a theory here. No matter how you justify it, it is something missing from the story, and in this case it's something that would have been referenced a long time ago if it were true, so it's not even a perfect theory. This entire paragraph is you doing the work for Oda in order to make the story make sense: that shouldn't be your job.
    You sum it perfectly: "there has to be some sort of limit to have believability". The logical flow from this point without introducing any of our own bias is to go:
    Is there a limit given in the story?
    No.
    Therefore there is a believability issue in the story.

    It's really quite simple. But what you seem determined to do is:
    Is there a limit given in the story?
    No.
    OK so I'll just invent one based on clues. Problem solved.

    Which is fine to do personally when reading/watching, but these things have no place when discussing the objective qualities of the story.
    I don't, and Oda doesn't. It is a problem in the story. Simple as that.
    I can come up with theories as to why and how, but I don't accept them as fact.

    Personally if I was to develop a theory to explain it, I would say that each DF has its own specific limits (just like Law/Luffy/Buggy/Bartolomeo) that are subliminally communicated to their user once they're eaten. A blanket stamina explanation has too many problems for me to believe it.
    Again, I'm not asking for an impossible level, just enough information to have a full grasp of the stakes. I don't think it's that big of an ask, especially when I know that Oda is capable of delivering it based on the earlier arcs.
    Yeah lol you got totally lost here. I'll go over my point again quickly:
    We have been led to believe that in order to hit a Logia like a normal person, you need to solidify their bodies, either with Haki or an anti element. That is to say, having a solid body means you will be hit like a normal person no matter what.
    Enter Aokiji. Aokiji has eaten an Ice Ice Fruit. He is an Ice man. Ice is a solid. It isn't a powder like Crocodile, nor a liquid, nor a gas, nor an energy. Aokiji is a giant block of ice - a giant solid. This means, that according to the aforementioned established rule, he should always be hit like a normal person; with or without Haki.
    His debut in the story is a fight against a Haki-less Luffy, and what happens when Luffy punches him? He shatters and reforms like no worries. He is not hit like a normal person. The precedent set by Enel and Crocodile, that if a Logia is solid they are hit like a normal person, is broken. This seems very inconsistent.
    And this problem could be fixed with more information, sure, but we don't have that information in the story.
    Hmm you might be right about the change in tone, but I honestly haven't thought about it. I guess it might be because this discussion seems to be operating mostly on misunderstandings rather than the "good" stuff, but I'm still just as keen to keep going :D
     
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  8. Seiryu

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    Hmm...Do you honestly think a majority of the members here would have a burning desire to know the exact explanation of Gear Second (if presented with the physiology presented here)? Based on how and what people as a whole respond to, I would not believe so.

    As for the second part on Gear Third, I thought some of the previous discussions already addressed how it is the product of the Gomu Gomu abilities? Because it is something completely unique to Luffy, it doesn't affect the mechanics of the world.
    One way valves already exist in real life, so I don't see the problem (Vegapunk is at least 500 years in the future of our technology). But, if the problem with Luffy's Gears (all of them have the same "problem"), then Oda is just having an instantaneous exaggeration of Luffy's healing. He already heals at an astronomically ridiculous rate, so his coagulation should also reflect that. As soon as the bite stops, enough blood clots to close the wound and create the seal. It's not like he's biting his arm off, so of course a small wound closes and heals faster than a larger wound (wound size exponentially slows because new growth/healing is dependent upon the healthy cells doing the construction along the periphery).
    So does the "manga magic" of coagulation equate to enough to replace the physical band-aid? To me, something like regrowing a new adult tooth from drinking milk is stupid, but I fully accept the altered reality and acknowledge the rationale behind it (and at least there is rational thinking behind it). Ah, that's probably a good analogy. Do you accept Brook/Luffy healing during WCI?
    Just quoting the whole thing because that second quote is in direct reference to you (not Oda, not One Piece content, etc.). In this one line, I was asking for what you think is disconnected on Gear Second (and based on the above the answer appears to be the "open balloon"). Based on this, the exaggerated coagulation (real world coagulation is already that instantaneous) and the more important the area, the higher the rate of coagulation (we have greater blood flow for the areas that necessitate the greatest demand).

    So that second quote is completely independent of everything else, and was more for me to figure out what the exact point of disconnect is (and thankfully it got answered completely randomly).
    I stopped both in the mid to late 2000's, so I'm just operating on second hand info. I wouldn't be surprised if the years of crap just lowered people's expectations. However, I think the contrast of Oda vs. any other mangaka is something I think beneficial to this discussion. Kishi had his "5 year plan" (the original Naruto, the Shippuuden part, and the next generation part). Almost everything goes to crap because of the poor planning and inability to have believability.

    Oda's levels and plot development are on completely different levels, which is why something like a missing band aid is all that is "unbelievable".
    So just like the above, at least we can admit that the plot is on a completely different level. So I think a good follow-up question for me now is do you think Oda has a plan for Luffy's awakening? Do you think Oda had no end-game/"end of series" plan in mind (to borrow Pac-man's EoS abbreviation)?

    Even if I change my perspective to have Gear Second-Fourth a last minute addition, then I would have to think Gear Fifth is just B.S. too. And for me, I do not think it is humanly possible to run with a "lie" that long and that consistently. If it was B.S., Oda should have had a bigger fib than the band-aid (and I think the coagulation explains the "problem"). Ah, I can expand on the exact physiology of coagulation if needed.
    And I would counter that Enel immediately looks at Luffy as an idiot (i.e. looses his concentration). All kenbunshoku is dependent upon concentration and technically so does busoushoku ("weaving" and "creating" chakra is probably something most manga fans recognize). The "plot armor" is that Oda just needs to say X character lost a part of their concentration (the emotional change/letting their emotions get the better of them) appears to be the go to trend so far. I know for sure, this is exactly the rationale for the end of the Enel fight.

    I will 100% agree that there are potentially huge loopholes if we only look at mantra (we both agree on the poor planning and execution). However, Oda is rational enough to cover his butt later. I'm probably going to hate a majority of the action from here on out (the foresight will be convenient and probably only come up for dramatic purposes while "explained away" by inadequate concentration), but the level of connectivity is at if not extremely close to 100% (it's definitely close enough, lack of statistically significant difference, that I can call it "100%" accurately).
    I shouldn't jump to conclusions, but I'd be willing to bet you can agree that the overall believability of One Piece has gone down since WCI. So for me, if you can agree that Oda is now 1 step from f'ing up the series (mishandling Big Mom's amnesia), I can't find any way to rationalize the astronomically different levels of "disconnect" (the level of disconnect for the minuscule missing band-aid vs. complete mishandling of a key part of an arc's plot).

    This in itself is the proof that Oda humanly cannot provide every single detail. He cannot even keep track of the current plot adequately. I think I referenced it earlier, but Oda politely told readers to take the time to read each chapter carefully and figure it out for yourselves (kind of an old interview where he tells readers to take at least 5 minutes reading each chapter). In what literary work is EVERY single detail laid out? I can't think of anything.

    Oda's anatomy/physiology/biomechanics comprehension is at a graduate studies level. I have a hard time thinking it is all last-minute B.S. based on the pattern of consistency for 20 years. Ah, so I should ask, based on all of the discussions here, do you think Oda has a graduate-level comprehension? Even if you think no, what level of research do you think he does for references/inspiration? How much time do you think he puts in, and at what level of comprehension do you think he has?

    The human body is surprisingly simple despite the complex intricacies necessary for it to operate simply. All it takes is just first-hand experience of something similar to have full comprehension (I have kids as patients, and they can grasp every concept that I discuss with every adult).
    Ah...KK now I'm getting a much clearer picture. So now I have to double down on the "figure it out for yourselves" (he doesn't state that directly, but that is his message in his usual politically correct/indirect implication manner of talking). My main goal from here on out is to prove that it is humanly impossible for Oda to worry about every single detail. Of course there are other options (and probably minuscule probability), but the main results are Oda's health deteriorating, believability deteriorating, or a combination of both. Trying to keep the current plot believable is already putting Oda at his limits.

    It is almost impossible to negate the real B.S. from this discussion, but I think I've done it enough to be precise/accurately conveying in discussing it.
    Ah, I got a good additional aspect to add on. Just like building a skyscraper or tiered pyramid, any additional floor/tier has to match and fit the "believability" of all previous floors/tiers. Thus, every arc adds additional layers of complexity. This is why Oda cannot give 100% canon explanations even from relatively early stuff (the Gears are Enies Lobby, and that's when I started the series in 2005).

    The fact that it is minimized to such a "minuscule" level is literary mastery in itself. So I'd be curious to discuss other points of "disconnect" (again I do not think there is any "disconnect" for real content). Every single plot point has a purpose and has been thoroughly planned out to be exponentially more rational than the average fan dreams of.

    This was my point in the hella long discussion. If we microanalyze any part of real content, there is going to be a rational explanation for everything. Even if I put myself in a different bias, the possibility of B.S. is essentially 0 because that necessitates getting lucky constantly for 20 years. Even with the real B.S., it is still a minuscule portion of WCI and Wano Kuni arcs.
    Ohhhhh...I got ya now...so doesn't the visualization of his being "shattered" fit perfectly? This is exactly why "solidify" is not accurate. There needs to be an "anti-magic" negation. The result is a "solidification" in most cases, but not Aokiji. When Aokiji is hit by a haki attack, that body part is magically negated from becoming ice and thus takes the physical damage.
    So if we replace the solid ice with the "magic of logia", doesn't the mechanics fit perfectly? While in a state of "element", he is immune to all attacks unless haki, anti-element, or being caught off guard.
    I seek feedback, so I will give it out since the flow of the discussion led to it. Yes, the microanalysis will go to a point where biases are highly integrated. And speaking from personal experience, trying to connect every breadcrumb led to greater appreciation for the literary mastery. The theories section is the perfect example of the necessity of this. With 80% of the puzzle completed, there is no longer any open-ended situations. We have at least a partial narrowing (if not major narrowing) of every major arc for the rest of the series.
     
  9. Kevz

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    Wait is the devil fruits genetic changes and if they are it’s possible it can run out right
     
  10. Jawahib

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    No I don't, but that's not the point at all. Problems don't care who cares about them, whether everyone does or no one does, a problem is a problem. When I say "there is a problem", the only valid responses are "ok it's a problem" or "it's not a problem because the story explains xyz". Saying "no one cares tho" is meaningless. I don't care that no one cares; I've said a few times already that I don't even care, but the problem is there so I'm pointing it out. We aren't discussing if the problem ruins the story, only if it's there. If you agree that it's there, even if no one cares, even if you think it's miniscule, then there's nothing else to discuss on this point, and usually the "no one cares" argument is only used if you think it's there already so I've got my fingers crossed :P
    Wait, you accept the rationale behind it? What rationale? Do you know something we don't o_O? I accept that there is rationale behind it, but that it hasn't been revealed yet. This is evident in the way Nami and others react to seeing Luffy heal with perplexity - because there's an explanation there. So until we get that explanation, I can't really comment on seeing these things, and seeing how much time Oda's given himself to prepare it I expect it will be quite satisfactory.
    As far as Brook is concerned, you're right in that objectively there is probably an issue (assuming we don't get an explanation later), but seeing as he's got an incredibly unique existential state, there isn't much chance that the fact he heals incredibly rapidly isn't unique to his DF (or at least him), so it isn't likely to affect the stakes. Compare this with something like Gear Third which has consequences that could influence how inflation/deflation works in the OP world, and we can see that we're dealing with different monsters since it's much harder to attribute that issue to a unique property of Luffy. But to my surprise you actually try to do exactly that, so let's get into it:
    OK, so this entire thing should be dismissed as "you're doing the work for Oda" again, since this explanation is not in the story in a way that relates Luffy's rapid healing back to Gear Third, but out of respect for you I'll engage with the theory. My problems with this theory are that A) if the wound heals that fast won't it heal around his teeth and essentially squeeze them so he has to tear flesh to escape (my biological knowledge doesn't go very far, so that could all be nonsense)?
    And B) But there's not even the tiniest hint of air escaping once his teeth are release, unless his body repairs skin in chunks which would just be ridiculous.
    Of course both those issues are secondary to the fact that the explanation isn't in the story, and if turns out that when we get the explanation later for Luffy's rapid healing that it covers this problem with Gear Third, then I'll never mention this problem again.
    Honestly I'd hunted down the sources ready to counter your ideas about losing concentration, but this comment is good enough for me. The whole thing was just something I'd thought of in passing anyway but I think it's a great example that can show how One Piece is not "100% connected".

    I mean you've mentioned this "graduate level comprehension" in like every post at this point but I've never had reason to respond to it since it doesn't directly relate to anything I'm talking about, but now that it's a direct question how can I say no? :P
    Do I think Oda has graduate level comprehension of what? Of everything ever? Of just the things that appear in the story? If so, no to both things. I think he simply does the research of whatever he wants to implement to make sure there's at least some believable basis for it, and that he is capable of comprehending the things he researches at that graduate-level. I can't really think of a part of the story where I think "Wow it's like it was written by a graduate physicist/biologist/whatever", but I absolutely credit Oda for being extremely thorough in the scientific concepts that he implements. In almost all cases, he establishes the mechanics and stays true to them. For example, there's a problem with Luffy vs Enel since rubber that doesn't conduct burns instead, so Luffy should be cooked, but Oda kept the fact that he was simply immune totally consistent so there's no believability issue there like there usually would be when a scientific concept has been missed (e.g. laws of inflation/deflation).
    Firstly, you don't need to do that because I agree with this so you'd have no one to disagree with.
    Secondly, I'm not asking for every single detail. I only want details that influence our understanding of the in-universe rules, the characters, and most importantly our understanding of the stakes. One can say, "What, do you need to see every second of Luffy's childhood before you can believe it?", to which I'd say of course "no, assuming there was nothing else in that childhood that could influence how we understand his character today". If we cut from kid-Luffy who was dumb and brash and fearless, do a Luffy that was intelligent, educated, and strategic, I would request that we saw, or otherwise learnt, how this change occurred.
    Easiest comparison I can draw is the change of Gohan from the end of the Cell Saga to the start of Buu. And all we needed to know between these things for context was that Gohan, at the behest of his mother, abandoned the martial artist lifestyle and focused on his studies over a number of years, and we saw nothing outside of his character at the start of Buu that made us need any more than that.

    Right, but that falls down to your opinion then as opposed to anything objective. You're not saying "One Piece is 100% connected" objectively, but rather "The things I consider "real" in One Piece are 100% connected". And unless something on your list of things that thought were "real" was somehow flawed or otherwise incorrect, it'd be nothing short of insulting you to try and change your mind on this - and I wouldn't even want to. Once your position that you only factor in things you care about was clear, the discussion becomes kind of pointless because any further efforts on my parts will simply be trying to show you why you should hate One Piece for xyz reason, which even if I believed I wouldn't want to do unless I was determined to ruin your enjoyment of the series.
    But it loses the objective weight when you ignore things you don't care about to maintain the conclusion that "One Piece is 100% connected [excluding Haki]". What it really means is "One Piece is 100% connected [excluding Haki], after you ignore the problems I don't care about, or come up with your explanation for how missing components could work". Something being connected is objective; the problems you care about subjective. If your response to a claim of imperfection is "it doesn't bother me" or "no one cares" then you're throwing away your objective perspective that everyone can talk about in exchange for a subjective one that only has meaning to you.

    And before you say "well no story can be 100% connected objectively", they absolutely can. Mario invading Bowser's castle to save the princess is pretty airtight. A man going to a store to buy some milk doesn't have much room for disconnection. There are plenty of stories, and ways to write stories, that are "100% connected".
    Yes, and this is the vibe I get as well, that it's simply an "anti-magic" thing, but then that raises other questions, especially what qualifies an "anti-element", that we still do not have answers for.
     
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  11. Seiryu

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    But everything has an associated/appropriate context (and in general if we have different biases, the context is just different so a big part is to investigate and find what that is). I thought I already did the explanation of "xyz" (I guess I'll see what happens when I get to the coagulation part of your response since that's the last big thing, discussed at least, in terms of the gears problem).
    I'm objective enough to put myself in a different bias and skew my thoughts to match a different bias...maybe that's what you're referring to. So same thing with the long discussion, I can 100% agree with your rationale on things, but my bias is that some key point is being left out (the bias stemming from the differing context).

    And that's exactly what happens with the series as a whole. Piecing together the smaller and smaller details is fun if no one perceives an attack when a topic conflicts with a deeply ingrained bias. It's humanly impossible to do this 100% of the time and for me, I would benefit from feedback.
    So I'm kind of curious, is there something of "disconnect" (I don't know how you would explain it other than "unsatisfactory explanations") with the more recent arcs? I think we both have the general gist of each other's perspectives at this point.
    But both Luffy and Brook have it. At a certain point, there just has to be some level of "manga magic" acceptance as the "satisfactory explanation". Or at least to me there does. I don't think I directly asked, do you think the believability of One Piece would go down (eventually) if Oda wrote every single detail like how you're asking for? This is all the SBS stuff, databook stuff, and then additional stuff. The panels are already full with content when Oda's on a roll. How is Oda supposed to fit all of that and still have appropriate cliffhangers?
    Coagulation is similar to wound healing in that it will work from the periphery and then go central. Even with small enough wounds (in the real world) with "immediate" coagulation, the blood pressure will still have some blood seep out from the difference from the atmospheric pressure. Even if the coagulation is to a speed that part of the cells attach to the teeth, this first layer of "sealant" is not a true scab. The scab is later piled on. This is also ignoring the insertion of air (which is a physical force stopping the closure until the blowing stops).

    And actually, I would 100% agree that I would bet Oda has not thought to this exact level of explanation. However, because the foundational planning is based on graduate level research, it all matches up with something from the real world. I think I saw something on things not being 100% connected, so I'm curious to see what because other than haki, I haven't seen anything (and I'm biased to think the people back at K-F were much smarter than I am).
    This is "manga exaggeration" too. Luffy's lungs are not big enough (even with the elasticity) to do so. Rationally, there is some air escaping before the coagulation completes (due to the difference in pressure). However, it is a statistically insignificant amount compared to the massive amount blown in for both 3rd/4th.

    So the physical band-aid equivalent is a small blow/breeze escaping in the moment he removes his mouth. But I'm sorry, this is such a small point that I think actually detracts from the action. When Toei puts in the massive dollars for quality animation, the level of detail is so great they include small artistic touches to this level (I'm not sure if it is the exact same procedure, but the quality of animation jumped to this level when the groundbreaking change of purposefully distorting the frame by frame picture => purposefully adding a bump to what is seen as a straight line makes the fluidity of the animation greater). Thus, the true art and mastery of knowing how much to distort and the man hours to redraw when it's a little off is astronomical in effort and thus cost.

    If Oda included it, they would animate it, and for me, it immediately distracts from the move he's about to do. *Fancy-smancy Snake-man introduction* and then the fart of extra air escaping. Seems completely out of place to me. So again, the discussion shows we agree that "manga logic" is unavoidable. I'm saying Oda cuts it off at the appropriate level.
    Wait, so the "manga logic" of universal magic healing isn't sufficient? The tooth example is the biggest irrational one to me (it makes sense for Brook, but not for Luffy). Based on your comments, it sounds like you accept the "manga logic" behind Luffy regrowing his tooth. If he can do that (and regrow major sections of internal organs => Croc/Katakuri), healing a small cut isn't that big of a deal to me.
    And haven't I qualified enough times that the exceptions are haki and real B.S.? I don't got the time to be typing out (excluding haki and real B.S.) every single time it comes up.

    I should probably reference it again, but Tony's right that I "rip posts apart", but unfortunately I don't have enough feedback to figure out how to discuss biased topics (and it's probably humanly impossible since the bias has to be pointed out and that's where the "attack" usually gets perceived). However, if I changed your perspective that the disconnects are only limited to haki and real B.S., then I did my job. Since there aren't many puzzles left in One Piece, the only main thing left is to put together the puzzle of each character's development as it happens and then putting that part of the puzzle into the plot. If you look for it, there are many more breadcrumbs to be found.
    Of course you could, but we're both overanalytical enough to connect the dots relative to the things discussed. Of course I don't believe Oda has done that much research for every single topic in the world. At least for major references (the various sciences of the human body in relation to Luffy being able to maximize the abstract benefits of rubberiness), I would bet he does.

    For something like Eminem (Enel's design inspiration), of course it is purely just a superficial level of research. However, the level of research is scaled to its importance. Even something like the dessert 5y.o. Linlin loved was 100% legit in all aspects according to the two people familiar with the culture. Naturally, this has to be some sort of level in between the gears/Enel, but the work is put in to have 100% connectivity.
    So I guess my question now is that do you think there is a smaller percentage chance that stuff like the gears are just last minute additions? I forget where I referenced the improbability of just being completely lucky constantly for 20 years.

    The burning rubber part is interesting: I don't have enough physics, but there is some quotient/variable directly related to the referenced burning (the higher this factor, the more resistant to burning => things with a low rating can have spontaneous combustion). Because Luffy is 100% rubber and naturally extremely dense "rubber" in his trunk (his bones, organs, muscles, etc. are all squeezed compactly), shouldn't the combination of volume and density provide a greater threshold? Electricity takes the path of least resistance, so as long as Luffy is on the ground (which he is for all of Enel's largest attacks => the one's before the WTF?! face), the electricity is passing from his head to his feet. The amount of dense rubber shouldn't burn (if it does, only his skin).

    But that's the benefit of sound logic. As long as the correct laws are being applied, the intricacies/smaller details all still match up. Thus, the facade of complexity. It's the mastery of the basics that makes it the work of art that it is. And that's why I keep referencing back to some baseline level of pure acceptance. We do it naturally (the regrown adult tooth). I'm curious as to why you are holding such a high standard for the gears (and this is exactly why I'm curious to see if you have similar expectations for other parts of potential "disconnect").
    Exactly, everything in the right context. For me personally, I think Oda is providing all of the relevant details, which is why we love protagonists and despise antagonists. So do you have instances where you think Oda is not providing the necessary character development to keep the plot believable? I'm super biased to disagree because I nitpick at every tiny detail of character development because I love how just a few eccentricities (sometimes just one), creates a completely unique new character for readers.

    Pretty women are the best example. Because Oda has such low levels of visual variety, it could be easy to get people confused. But because he has such mastery of character development, we should never mistake one for another.
    Kinda glad this came up. So do you think One Piece is now one step away from going to crap? If you imagine the worst way for Oda to handle Big Mom's amnesia and that got published, wouldn't that ruin a huge chunk of the series for you? How can Luffy be Pirate King with an illegitimate Yonkou War (potentially two with Kaidou and Big Mom)?

    An exception has to be made because this is clearly an exception from the rest of the series. I am going to jump straight to this conclusion because this thread itself reflects the comprehension and analysis of someone connecting minuscule levels of breadcrumbs. Even if you completely revert to the 90% connectivity perspective, that 10% never materialized into a critical level ever.

    Of course an exception can be made for pretty much any situation, but if the same context is established, the astronomically high levels of connectivity of One Piece make it so that there is essentially no room for alternative explanations. Because it is such a fool-proof/thoroughly written story, it all has to fit and will all fit (unless Oda decides to revert to add B.S. again).
    C'mon, really? Completely different scale. Of course changing the context can allow for an exception. From a statistically significant perspective (95+%), Oda is already greatly exceeding that by chapter count alone. If we go by panel count, he's probably over 99.9%. I'd call that 100%.
    And exactly because it raises questions (but probably mainly the over-powered nature of it), Oda had to completely stop it. This was done pretty early on with the Aokiji/Akainu being equals when rationale says one should be the anti-element of the other.
    It is a permanent mutation that is from the "magic" of the devil being in the user's body. So from the Vegapunk/scientific perspective, he can create the permanent mutations to create an artificial devil in Momo (or any other Vegapunk created fruits).

    Because Caesar is at a lower level, SMILE is an incomplete mutation and only parts of a user's body expresses (posses) the mutation.
     
  12. Marco Polo

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    I’ve kinda skimmed this debate because it’s very long, but re: Zoro vs. Monet, I agree with Jawahib and Kia in that I think Zoro uses Haki to slice Monet the first time

    PS: @Jawahib if Zoro’s imbuing air slashes with Haki, that old “Haki Factory” by @AkainuWrrshiprr might just be more than a theory
     
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  13. Jawahib

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    Well of course all the relevant information should be considered before drawing a conclusion about the objective quality - especially context. For example, when Aokiji shatters and reforms after Luffy hits him without any other introduction (the issue with solidity aside), the context of the One Piece world tells us that he must be a Logia Fruit, since this is the only pre-established rule that explains this phenomena. What doesn't count as context, however, is inventing connections or explanations that do not exist in the story and trying to pass them off as fact. I do not consider the calf muscle pump system when analysing the objective quality of the explanation of Gear Second, and I do not consider Luffy's rapid healing when analysing the mechanics of Gear 3rd, because these, in the context of the scenes in which they are debuted, are not mentioned in the story, or even alluded to be missing by other characters.
    No, I'm referring to you saying that you accept the rationale behind Luffy's rapid healing. We don't need biases here. All we know is that Luffy's rapid healing and, for lack of a better word, weird body (BB where u at), have started to become recognised by other characters since WCI, which means that it has significance far beyond the typical shounen trope of strong character eating food to become healthy. Unlike something like, say, Nami being able to beat up the Monster 3, it's starting to play a part aside from pure comedy.
    But we are yet to learn the actual rationale behind it. It seems certain with the way characters are beginning to become particularly bamboozled by it and how convenient it's becoming in the story that Oda has an explanation in store for Luffy's rapid healing (and possibly his incredible natural strength as well). Until we get that explanation, we can't really understand any rationale behind it, though I'm working on the assumption that it will be done satisfactorily.
    Not off the top of my head, but I'd need to go through it all again to fully digest and recall everything. Especially the stuff happening in Wano, it's all so fast I'm struggling to keep up at all times, though I know I probably would be able to if I read the chapters in one sitting as opposed to weekly.
    At any rate, the short answer to the question there is no, and unless something strikes out at me as compromising my own believability I don't really plan on finely combing through each plot point looking for errors (in spite of what this thread may have indicated :P )
    Nope. As far as believability is concerned, the more (non-contradictory) information, the merrier. It might lower the enjoyment of the series, sure, but believability would be fine if the story paused for a while, listed out all the relevant data that influences the stakes that haven't already been established (honestly there wouldn't even be all that much anyway) and then continued.
    But that's the point. You're admitting here that you the audience need to have graduate-level comprehension of how Luffy's rapid healing would affect his bite wound (a wound that went to bone so I still don't believe it would've healed that fast but anyway) for the story to make sense. This is pretty much the definition of you doing the work for Oda. It only makes sense after you apply your own bias and search for ways to make it make sense, because the information is missing from the story.
    Well there doesn't need to be a fart, it just needs to be explicitly mentioned - at bare minimum acknowledged, even without explanation - in the story that air doesn't escape after Luffy inflates. If it was mentioned the first time Gear Third was activated, we'd never even need to see it again because we understand how it works now.
    This is something that early Naruto got extremely well. Understand that hand signs focus chakra (I believe Sasuke's Fireball Jutsu was the official debut of hand signs, though I guess Naruto's Shadow Clones count too), so when we see jutsu being formed with hand signs moving faster than the eye can see, we know what's happening. We understand everything that happens on the small scale so we don't need to wonder what's happening when we see it large scale. Just about every detail was covered (though attributing everything to chakra made this task relatively easy compared to One Piece where there are several power-sources at play), so believability could be maintained at an extremely high level of combat.
    We are yet to see Oda's explanation for Luffy's healing. If he never presents one (which would genuinely surprise me, and not in the good Oda-plot-twist way), then it is a huge believability (and overall enjoyment) issue because my understanding of Luffy completely changes from "rookie with an unyielding spirit" to "divinely blessed human born with a superhuman capacity for strength and healing with an unyielding spirit". So for now I will give Oda the benefit of the doubt and assume there is a rational in-universe explanation for Luffy's healing, and remain satisfied with a "DF magic" explanation for Brook's.
    Yeah, but you've been arguing from your own bias (ie your own home-grown theories and connections), so it's not exactly convincing me. When I put on my objective goggles, I'm still seeing quite a large number of disconnects, because ultimately you keep saying "yeah but no one cares about that disconnect" or "if you just use this theory to explain it, there's no problem". This doesn't make my objective goggles happy. The only thing that makes my objective goggles happy is information in the story, so talking to me about biology won't achieve much.
    Absolutely not :P
    Though don't misunderstand me, just because I am convinced that the gears were last-minute additions, doesn't mean I think this is a recurring theme throughout One Piece where things seem ham-fisted in at the last moment. It's extremely rare in the story, and the gears are just a small example of that. And it's not like the gears were poorly done: I'd say they were about as well done as they could have been, it's just that there was absolutely nothing indicating that Luffy had even thought of something like them despite him mentioning that he'd developed the technique earlier.
    Compare it with something like Gohan's "secret" power that permeated every single DBZ arc from the first one to Cell, where it was hyped up that Gohan had a hidden power that Goku and Piccolo were constantly trying to bring out of him that ultimately culminated in him being the first to reach Super Saiyan 2 to defeat Cell. It's not like SS2 was brought up out of nowhere, there was clearly something in the works.
    But we had absolutely no comparable indication that something like Gears were happening. I mean, the rationale behind is extremely flimsy, and honestly the more I think about it the weirder it gets.
    For example, we learn that Luffy only found a real use for Gear Second after he saw CP9 using Rokushiki and decided to emulate it. What was its use before that point? Did he seriously sit down and say "I wonder what'll happen if I pump my blood real fast", then the first time he activated it prior to CP9, go "yeah so my heart's beating real fast my brain's goin 10000 miles an hour let's try punch real fast *pow* woah! I'll call that Jet Pistol let's try other moves... *Jet-ises other Gum Gum moves* so that's pretty cool I'll call this bad boy Gear Second man I'm getting kind of tired...."? And what on Earth would have been Luffy's rationale for blowing into his thumb bone experimentally? No, the entire thing plays out like the OP God (ie Oda) appeared to Luffy in a dream and told him about these abilities which he then went and developed. He hadn't hinted at even being curious about power-ups of that kind before showing them.

    And I'm not sure what you mean by the "lucky" comment. Are you implying that the only two options as explanations for the Gears was that either Oda had them planned all along or he got extremely lucky last minute that he could develop these new abilities with decent rationale behind them? Because honestly the last-minute development of the gears aren't exactly feats of genius, especially compared to some of the other things Oda's pulled off. They were definitely incredibly creative, but ultimately (as far as I can speculate) he just went "I want him to be really fast" on one hand, and then "I want him to be really big/strong" on the other, and came up with explanations around those ideas.

    Again, not off the top of my head, but Oda's handling of characters is top-tier, so I'd be incredibly surprised if we saw something grossly inconsistent character-wise further down the line. If I was ever aiming to put together a complete objective critique of One Piece (which like... no, that crap would take years lol), these are the kinds of questions I'd be trying to answer (this one and the earlier one about what's not 100% connected), but for now I'm just going off the things that struck out to me, and no character to me feels more like a plot device than an actual character (even a character like the new Hyogoro, who is obviously there as a plot device to make Luffy get in trouble with the jailers, is brought to life and feels like a complete, believable character).
    Never thought about it like this before, but I completely agree. I've noticed that after the timeskip, Robin and Hancock start looking near-identical when they're drawn side by side, and even Vivi and Nami looked really similar without colour back in Alabasta, but the characters were always so different that it never even occurs to me to get them confused.
    This is an entirely different discussion and not what I was trying to allude to at all. Nonetheless, an interesting discussion it would make :D
    As far as I can tell, a series is always one step away from going to crap. Authors can pull all sorts of nonsense to mess up investment beyond repair, and it doesn't take much to achieve this.
    But in the case of One Piece, no I don't think it's about to go to crap, but maybe I'm just in denial. I have no idea what Oda plans to do with Kid Mam, and I'm refusing to contemplate the perhaps more obvious ones about using her to manipulate a cheap victory for the Straw Hats at Wano. I think Oda knows what would make his story fall apart and will stay away from things like that lest he lose everything. I'm remaining optimistic, especially because the other solid plot lines are getting much more attention than Linlin's and it's not a systematic take over of Linlin's amnesia dominating the story (sort of like the Sage of the Six Paths nonsense that took over Naruto).

    But don't you see this is an example of One Piece not being 100% connected? Oda's essentially had to silently retcon any rationale that was behind anti-elements for Logias because with all the new powers it's all turned into a bit of a mess so just don't worry about anti-elements because they're redundant now and just worry about Haki. What if I cared about how that system worked? What if I wanted to know and understand more about what makes an anti-element? I know I certainly did especially after we saw it happen with both Crocodile and Enel for seemingly different reasons.
    Do I need to come up with a theory to explain it for myself, or should I just not be bothered by it because no one else is and it's impossible to put that level of detail in the story?
     
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  14. Seiryu

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    @Jawahib too since I'm curious what you think. If it is "air haki", that's pandora's box in my mind.

    Haha...maybe you shouldn't have dipped your toe in the pool. I didn't bring it up earlier (but this comment made me remember), but context should be the driving factor. If Zoro uses a haki imbued air strike, then stuff like the admiral "haki force field" is no longer last-minute B.S. And now the believability of the series goes down. Because if this is "normal haki usage", why is no one else using it? If this is the case, all of the various "Green Lantern" applications are theoretically possible now. "Haki mastery" is then a bunch of Green Lanterns fighting.

    I don't think those still reading would be willing to bet that is the desired direction of "Yonkou level fighting" Oda has in mind.
    From what I've read, the Aokiji part isn't a point of discrepancy once we take away the "solidification" misconception (non-universal word choice by the wiki => again it is as of right now just Aokiji as the "exception" but that's what it is) and focus on the "anti-magic" effect. Although we have a different level of agreement, I'm reading that we both agree that Oda has done an extensive level of research (the level of research being different) and he has made something quite abstract extremely rational (the only point of contention is the plugging of the hole). I know I wrote it later in the post, but microanalysis naturally leads to nitpicking at the details, but the fact that the details all line up is the facade of complexity which results from astronomical amounts of planning. Oda's planning has and should continue to exceed the 90% or 95% connectivity level. And of course Oda is not in the medical field and I'd bet he never even got close to the level we ended at, but the fact is that it all matches up because of the 100% connectivity. Because it follows the laws of nature, even the tiniest of details should still match up. It is impossible to be perfect all the time so I'll just round the 99.9% up to 100% because functionally it is 100% (lazy typing so I'm gonna go with the easier route).
    My experience probably rubs people the wrong way, but this comment probably does the same thing: time and the rest of the series is going to prove my point. Oda has very little deviations from his writing style (the open-ended discussion in 935 is a new/previously unused technique). Is it possible Oda slowly develops a "new writing style"? Of course. His 22 years of mastery make it highly unlikely (his mastery is why it occurs unconsciously, so trying to change that is even harder than developing the mastery). Because Oda is purely dependent on 100% connectivity and masterful character development, the overall flow of the series has to retain a level of "feel" (i.e. believability). Because the 100% connectivity is directly correlated to believability, the overall trends I'm talking about have to be there.

    I will only point out what I've done to support what I'm talking about, but I was making a big deal out of B.S. content from Frog-Carrot B.S. because I was hoping it never got close to Big Mom amnesia B.S. At the time, I would have said Oda's literary mastery would make it impossible for such a level of disconnect to become reality. His damn pride allowed it to happen, and this is why the series can lose a major portion of believability from a minuscule B.S. point (the number of panels of Big Mom amnesia are still microscopic in the 22 years of panels).
    Hmm..missed a part.
    The graduate level comprehension only comes up in microanalysis. I know it's mentioned somewhere in this mass of text, but 99+% of fans just accept the established level of rationale and fill in the gaps with "manga logic" of their own. I'm kind of curious to see this trend between you, Yuz, and Kia for literally every single thing to be spelled out by Oda. It literally got quite close to killing him (worrying about petty details completely on his own). It is fully believable for the astronomical majority of the fans and that is all Oda should worry about for his own health.
    Content has implied "weird bodies" are the norm. Even Usopp is partially "weird body" (of course to a much lower level) in that he has never gotten sick EVER. Every powerhouse has a varying and appropriate level of "weird body". Blackbeard is just on a completely different level, and is contextually directly tied to his ability to take full damage (or at least feel it) with the weird 0% logia "magic protection".

    The Nami part is a good point, but it is also a universal gag theme across almost any manga. Because it has 100% acceptance DESPITE the irrationality is a major point I've been indirectly getting at. Just because you don't accept it does not mean the majority of readers don't accept it. Oda's job is to just go with the majority even if it is 50.1>49.9. His 100% connectivity is exactly why only "minuscule" points are possible points of disconnect. I'd be willing to bet everything except haki and real B.S. can be microanalyzed to the exact same level. And that's why I keep bringing it up. Oda's planning greatly exceeds people's expectations. Wano Kuni will be different (the disconnect on level of hype and Kawamatsu's reveal is probably a good example of the disconnect from the inadequate planning). However, even with Wano Kuni, the attempt to have 100% connectivity will make the arc, character development, under card action, climax fights, and resolution have a certain "feel" to it.

    Because 80% of the puzzle is already together, seeing the full picture is only going to get easier and easier. It looks like Oda finally realized he's trying to fight the impossible and is going back to his 100% connectivity because of the need for believability. Even if you hate it (more because of my writing style and your honest comments are confirming what I was getting off of poker reads), this thread is supporting what I'm saying.

    I've seen and been in enough microanalysis over the years I have seen the content match and support the rationale (and the greater accuracy in predictions directly ties to changing my perspective on trying to have 100% connectivity). Even if it kills the romance of the series, the facade of complexity is the reality of it.
    And just like the real world, some people are just lucky and born with the right genetics. The elite of the elite pro athletes are born with healthier muscles that are more universally adaptable to ANY situation they are placed in. This can be forcefully trained, but Bo Jackson is the perfect example that he never worked out in his professional career (only hunted). Luffy, Zoro, Sanji, and every relevant powerhouse is the exact same way, but exaggerated to manga levels and directly scaled to their power-level (they become greater "freaks of nature" as they power-up). It's been there content-wise from the very start in East Blue.
    And per the above, I'd be willing to bet I can give an explanation to "do Oda's job for him". He did the foundational work to make it rational enough that it is all going to connect. He did enough work for it to be essentially 100% connected and thus the reasoning for the comments on figure it out for yourselves since it's all there. The 100% connectivity and facade of complexity are the reasons people overestimate Oda and still underestimate how much he can connect at the same time.

    The beginning of any discussion would be fun. But it's not going to be fun once it hits the point of beating the dead horse to prove a point.
    But a big part of my point/context is that probably 99+% of fans just accept the "manga logic" for what it is and move on with a satisfactory level of believability. You will not say it directly, but it seems like I made the necessary points on this aspect.
    And it's all there already. At least the next point of contention ("weird bodies") is super easy since even a normal human (strength wise at least) still has one aspect of a superhuman body. But that's the crazy thing for me...the facade of complexity has lots of bright people overthinking some things but still underthinking (other aspects) at the same time. Either way, the accelerated pace of the final 20% of the story will be the evidence.
    Then how would you come up with a rational power-up to explain the massive jump to CP9 level? This is the part that has me completely baffled, if it is almost a completely perfect fit (the physical band aid is all that's missing), what is it that makes you think it is a last minute addition? A common theme that repeats is the appearance of a baddie on a new level. A big part of Oda's success is that we knew "end of series" level characters, but never knew the exact "combat capabilities" until Kaidou demolished Luffy.

    So do you think every major power-up was B.S.? Just because Luffy doesn't talk about it in the manga, he is constantly shown to put protecting his nakama first. Every single fight he barely wins, he knows consciously he needs to get stronger. He has to be confident so that his crew never loses faith in him, but it's come up many times that Luffy wills himself to get stronger to protect his nakama. So actually, that's where it has been almost constantly mentioned. Yes, very subtly, but it's always been there from the very start (Krieg is the first example with the dialogue of protecting Sanji/Baratie, Zeff analyzing Luffy, and Luffy talking with Krieg about being out-gunned/out-weaponed).
    Completely separate discussion with "lucky". If the B.S. points (from your perspective) are last minute additions, Oda has to be extremely lucky for them to fit to the level you are admitting to previously. You decrease the number of times with the clarification that you think there are only a few instances of B.S., but it still requires significant luck if it was not planned out to be that way.
    I love me the earlier parts of DB/DBZ, but Dragon Ball is the worst series to reference for rational power-ups. Yes, Gohan's "latent potential" was foreshadowed from his birth and it was a huge moment when he finally tapped into it. Considering the artwork shows Goku contributing to the Kamehameha to defeat Cell, it killed a big part of the excitement for me (even with the massive power-up he still needed Goku's help because he got power-drunk).

    At least it did lead to insight on why you see it as B.S. though. But I will counter that the lack of on screen training is a huge part of Oda's success (this stems more to my K-F days 10 years ago). The characters are implied to be training (even if we don't see it). Luffy is a complete idiot in many ways, but he is a pure genius in terms of combat (he's a late bloomer since we see him absolutely failing constantly as a child). Once Croc tells Luffy the secret, context implies Luffy is training despite never being shown doing so: Luffy has always been 100% objective on when he's close to dying (excluding gags of course since "I thought I was gonna die" is a universal gag) + the above parts on always being driven by getting stronger for the sake of protecting his nakama, is that not sufficient content for you? If you can truly say no, then I will say that a great majority of the fans enjoy the lack of on-screen training. And ironically, it is the B.S. of DBZ that makes them hate the "deus ex machina" power-ups (which Oda still technically has avoided).
    So I need to ask even more directly: you obviously have greater faith in Oda than ANY other mangaka (and probably any serial/long-lasting literary author), correct? Every single comment I'm reading implies so. The 22 years (by your standards) should speak for itself. Even the B.S. points still fit near perfectly (correct me if I'm wrong, but the discussion implies 99% rationale). You're one hell of a critic though...no slack even with 22 years of consistency. That's really superhuman to me...and maybe I can appreciate it because I'm lazy as hell. I know there is no way I'd be able to do it, so I appreciate it all the more.
    No, because Oda realized he had to cut if off for the sake of believability. He needed some "miracle" for Luffy to suddenly jump to Shichibukai level. It will probably be the only fight in the series where Luffy faces multiple loses to the same opponent. There is no other rationale way to have it all, and the "anti-element" at least fits perfectly based on the limited parameters we got before Oda correctly cut it off. Somewhat indirect, but just like the cliche of exceptions being made for "exceptional" people/the favorites, I think we as fans have to make some level of "manga logic" acceptance based on the context. I'm starting to see a big part of what I do is establishing that context. If we view things from the same context, we are going to agree because One Piece is that simple. If you don't want to believe me, the remaining 5ish years will show it (to go on another huge tangent: I'd be willing to bet the giant Mugiwara-boushi is last-minute B.S. that has some level of disconnect much like the Kawamatsu reveal. Oda may have it appear rational on the surface, but big chunks of it just don't fit because he truly added it as last minute B.S.).
    Enel was a huge point in the series. Luffy had encountered the only logia he has a natural advantage over (Oda doesn't overlap unless it's absolutely necessary or for a good purpose, like the magma>fire). Logically, Oda's going to use his creative ideas for major points. And it worked since it created a hellstorm for the fan discussions (Luffy had to find logia allies with the right match-ups or become kairouseki dependent, both unlikely per his character). So technically, Oda's had his "distraction" technique from early on. He showed us the exceptions to divert from the real solution of haki. And now that I type this out, Gear Fifth/the awakening is probably going to support this. I truly think Oda tipped his hand with Snake-man. Luffy is not going to be able to deviate from his haki "overuse" style of fighting. If you truly think Oda didn't have exact fighting mechanics in mind for "end of series" Luffy, I really think you are underestimating Oda severely. And again, the completely different scales of believability, character development, plot development, everything should imply most if not all of these major points were the original 5 year plan.
    By your own admission, most other people don't have a problem with it. I would agree to the exact same level (if not greater) on the failure of haki to be done correctly and to the same level of success as pretty much every other aspect of the entire series. However, because it is such an integral part of the series, it's only looking more and more like part of the original 5 year plan.

    If you do, I will do my best to nicely "rip" it apart in that there is a simpler solution already there. So actually, I should ask this aspect directly: you have indirectly stated it a few times, but the things you are worried about are not applicable to a majority of the other readers. In conjunction with Oda pushing his body to the point of hospitalization and a legitimate fear by himself and WSJ that he could die (although that lasted a short time thankfully), what is it that makes you want these "missing details"? To me, the content already gives the "foreshadowing" of big power-ups and "weird bodies" steadily becoming the norm (an old man being able to swim to a different continent in stormy weather is not normal, but I would assume you just accept it based on him still being close to his prime combat capabilities). So yes, I will "do Oda's work" for him in that Oda already put the content there for us. I will always be the biggest pro-Oda/Oda fan in terms of the beauty of his literary masterpiece. Oda wants people to enjoy his masterpiece, but he failed to realize we aren't stupid, and we can readily connect the dots he blatantly wants to leave out in the open. So now people like me (I have to think there are people with similar levels of microanalysis in Japan) are now the "anti-Oda" and he is purposefully changing the plot because we figured out major plot points. Oda's never stated it directly, but all of his recent comments confirm it.

    For all microanalyzers, it takes further investigating to find some of the more subtle points. It is all there as far as I can tell. And if you are not expecting 100% connectivity, it is only human nature to gloss over the breadcrumbs. I'd be willing to bet that if you change your perspective, you too will start to see things before they happen.

    As long as we don't have to jump into excessive levels of micoranalysis, it should be fun/interesting. It will get touchy the deeper it goes because of a bias. However, because of the 100% connectivity, establishing the right context will resolve everything.
     
  15. Jawahib

    Both Exotic and Professor
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    Hahaha welcome to my lane dude :P
    Again, the problems do not care if 99+% don't care about them, they are still there, and the fact that you're saying that the audience fill in the gaps on their own means you admit there are gaps.
    I still don't understand: why does it have to be luck that enabled Oda to create the Gears?
    Do you really believe it would have been so hard to invent them on spot? Because I certainly don't. I've already explained rationale that would enable Oda to have invented them briefly before their introduction, and luck doesn't factor into it. The ideas behind the Gears do not really relate to anything previously established, except the fact that Luffy is made of rubber. It isn't especially hard to create a new power with just this tiny connection to the previous content, because just about every part of the Gears is entirely new in the world of One Piece. You don't need luck to invent something like that. He wasn't diving into old ideas and fishing out gems he missed earlier, he just made more ocean. He wasn't trying to fit a new piece into the puzzle, he just more puzzle. To prove my point, watch me invent Gear 1.5:
    Luffy uses a technique similar to Gear Second to increase the blood flowing to his brain. Because his brain cells are all made of rubber, it can endure the sudden increase in energy, and, with some manga magic sprinkled on top, Luffy is now able to access all of his memories, and can process information in nanoseconds, making him incredible quick on his feet in the midst of combat. It's Luffy's superior version of Chopper's Brain Point.
    Something pretty much identical is what I imagine with Gear Second and Gear Third. There wasn't any luck involved in this process.
    If I'm still not answering the question I'll need to ask you to elaborate on what you mean when you say he needed to have gotten lucky to have invented the Gears then, because I'm at a bit of a loss.

    Well no, I'd disagree pretty strongly here. The only person I'd agree with you who is implied to be training all the time is Zoro, because that's a part of his character. Every time we see Luffy in his down time, he's just messing around the ship. That's the norm for him, since he gets distracted extremely easily and becomes obsessed with things that interest him, so any training would be counter to this norm, meaning that we should expect that it would be seen or otherwise alluded to since it could have significant impact on the story. Context doesn't tell us that he was training to unlock the Gears, Luffy tells us that he was training to unlock the Gears, even though we had no prior reason to believe he would be. All of his moves in combat seem to be spontaneously invented if they haven't been used by him before, so no I don't buy the idea that the characters are implied to be training off screen.
    An easy fix to the problem of the Gears coming out of nowhere: have the crew spot something interesting after Skypeia. Usopp's like "Luffy, come check this out!". Chopper's like "He's busy training in the hull". The crew gets on with their everyday lives. At least there'd be something there by way of set up that would make the Gears such an incredibly satisfying payoff.
    If you want to argue that he hadn't developed the Gears until he lost to CP9 at Galley La, then you're in even more trouble because there is literally no time where training is possible for Luffy, meaning that the Gears are at most conceptual right up until Luffy activates Gear Second against Blueno, and it's pure plot convenience that it works the way he expects.
    To drive the point home: we don't need to see the training on-screen to meet the bare minimum requirements of implication. It is never healthy to build a story with the formula of having events take place and then explaining them afterwards. While it is often effective to do this in some contexts, it means the audience will never know the full stakes of a scene until the explanation comes, and it is very often the case that the explanation massively deflates the stakes in retrospect, making these stories almost impossible to rewatch.

    A very useful example of this is Star Wars: The Last Jedi [SPOILERS AHEAD], which practically embodies this idea.
    The entire plot centres around a chase in deep space where it is established that the good guys have absolutely no way out except for one impossible plan some of our heroes are on. We later learn that there actually is a nearby planet with an operational base for the good guys that they escape to right as the bad guys are about to get them, invalidating the stakes since we were previously led to believe they were in deep space with no such out. It's very difficult to rewatch these scenes. Incidentally, something almost identical happens with that very base where yet again we are told definitively that there is no back way out of the base according to the schematics, until the bad guys have blown out the front door and it is revealed that there actually might be a back way according to the schematics.
    The point I'm making here is that if we need to use the actual use of the powers to infer that the Straw Hats had been training the whole time, then we have an invalidation of stakes since we don't know anymore just what powers the Straw Hats have available to them, so we don't know how much we should be scared for them as the story tries to make us believe they are in danger. Rewatching Luffy vs Doflamingo is a bit tough since now we don't take any of it seriously until he pulls out Gear Fourth, and given what he can do with G4 and how liberal he is with it against tougher opponents, we are led to wonder why, outside of the dramatic reveal, Luffy waited so long to pull it out, because the explanation he gives is kind of flimsy (can't even remember if he gives one but I think it just was generally underestimating Doffy). That context isn't exactly as bad since we know he'd been training for 2 years and such a power-up was easily in the realm of believability, but it means that the leeway afforded by that training stops with Gear 4th and any new power-ups he gets we'll have to assume he's learnt after that fight.
    But imagine something like Franky pulling out a biological sure-kill gun in Wano, saying he'd been working on it since Zou. Wouldn't that be a bit random and convenient, despite a potentially awesome reveal? What would make such a reveal far more rewarding is if we had any inkling from the story (just a throwaway line does the job) that made us think he was developing something new. Same story with the Gears. If the story had bothered to make us believe that Luffy was working on something new, we'd be on the edge of our seats waiting to find out what it was, and the Gears would definitely not be a disappointment to such an expectation.

    Out of curiosity, how would you feel if Luffy pulls out Awakening against Kaido and says he was practicing it each night that he was in his prison?
    Hmm now that you mention Usopp, he also got extremely fat on his island with Hercules which he burnt off in the time skip. I guess there's enough time alotted for such a physical change to not be necessarily super-human, but it might be worth noting.
    At any rate, this particular discussion can't really be resolved until Oda does or doesn't explain Luffy's body, but given the constant attention it's been getting, I'd honestly be gobsmacked if we got nothing.

    Well I just have great faith in Oda, it's not necessarily compared to other mangaka/authors. I've read some incredible books, and seen some incredible story-telling. The story of One Piece isn't the best one I know of (objectively), but keeping at it for 22 years while maintaining such a high level in all areas is a hell of an achievement, so Oda's probably the author I respect the most out of all the ones I know of. It all comes down to your "facade of complexity" (I believe this means that it seems complicated when it's ultimately simple?); a simple story told extremely well, with any layers of perceived complexity being added in tiny increments so it becomes very difficult to lose track of who's who or what's going on.

    Wait, so you want me to come up with an alternative to Gear 2nd and Third? Well, the example I gave above about Gear 1.5 could probably be stretched out enough to accommodate this gap, though admittedly it would compromise Luffy's more reckless fighting styles in favour of a much more strategic, targeted Luffy who would scope out enemy attack patterns and weaknesses and capitalise on this data to punish his opponents.
    I could also imagine Luffy massively increasing his destructive power using a mechanic like the one in Kong Gun where he loads some of his arm into itself to then spring it outwards. That's about all I can think of for now, but I mean you don't need to look much more beyond good ol' Bufford's countless theories about Luffy's future power-ups to know it is possible to have invented stuff to cover the gap just like the Gears without needing to be "lucky".

    Sorry I'm replying to this out of order, but every time I scroll up there's something else I want to respond to :P
    Content certainly has implied anything but weird bodies being the norm. Why would characters be so perplexed about it and comment on it if it was? Are you implying that perhaps everyone in the OP world has the capacity to heal and digest like Luffy?
    "Ever major power-up"? There haven't been many at all (I assume you're talking excluding Haki), especially for the Straw Hats. If you're talking about Diable Jambe and Asura, then I'd say that yeah there absolutely was an element of BS to them (much more so Asura) since not only did they have no build-up whatsoever, they required new laws to be invented with regards to how we understand the One Piece universe. And don't get me wrong, I don't think the Gears are bs anyway, since a fair amount of work is put into them to make them believable, I just think Oda invented them last-minute. Not every last-minute thing has to be BS, it's just that when something is, it means it could have been done better by setting it up.

    I really appreciate the compliment, and of course I believe the same of you, but as I see it the rules for criticism don't change just because a series goes on for a long time. There's no rule that says "After 10 years, an author is allowed 3 inconsistencies in their stories before it is allowed to be considered bad or otherwise problematic". It's not about cutting him slack or not, it's just about talking about what's there, irrespective of how we feel about it. An issue is an issue, and yeah they can be tiny issues like the Gear Second one, but they're still there and shouldn't be ignored in analysis to satisfy our own biases because we love the story. I love the story in spite of these small problems which are for the most part easy to gloss over for me personally by either ignoring them or inventing my own theories for them.

    I don't think Oda intended for Luffy to be able to see into the future in fights by the end of the series when he started.
    But that's getting ahead of myself: as I believe we discussed earlier, we seem to fundamentally disagree on a lot of the rationale and circumstance that created Haki so there's no use retreading this old ground, but yeah I still can't believe Haki was in the original 5 year plan.
    Dude my whole sentence you're responding to here was dripping with sarcasm. Oda invented a concept in his story [anti-elements to make Logias get hit like normal people]. That concept dictated the outcome of two climactic fights [Crocodile and Enel]. That concept was given no explanation in the story in spite of its huge influence on the stakes outside of an acknowledgement of its existence in one instance [when Luffy said that Crocodile couldn't transform when he was wet]. An explanation of this concept would influence how we understood the stakes of almost every Logia encounter - for example we might get a clue as to how Smoker would have been defeated. A giant fan, perhaps, to blow him away and force him to remain solid lest he scatter into the atmosphere? Perhaps a coolant if his smoke was meant to be heat-based? We don't have any inkling as to the rationale behind what constitutes an anti-element.
    This is an issue, whether people care about it or not. The fact that I personally cared about it and wanted to understand how anti-elements worked was meant more anecdotally than anything definitive as evidence. It lessens your credibility as a critic when you're so willing to just accept these errors since "no one" is bothered by them, because it's almost certain that you won't apply that same leeway to every story you ever read.

    The hospitalisation thing is a curious guilt-trip, but to answer the question it is my desire to understand what is at stake in the story that makes me want these "missing details".

    Nothing about your approach to the analysis encourages me to engage with them as arguments, because time and again they're boiling down to "no one cares" [subjective], "cut him some slack" [deliberately ignore errors out of sympathy/respect for how long he's been doing this for], or "we can invent this theory to explain it" [subjective]. The stuff is all great as an attitude to have personally, but there isn't much to discuss there since these things only hold significance for you and so we can't really discuss much about them unless I was to try to argue that your feelings were wrong, which would be nonsense. The place where the really interesting discussion happens (imo), where we can all learn and grow and the kind of discussion I always try and have, is the land of objectivity, where the only valid currency is information and impartial analysis driven by clearly defined standards. I feel like you keep walking along the edge of the latter but have arguments all built up on premises that only exist in the former and so we keep coming back to subjective arguments when I try and make objective conclusions. It's why I haven't been responding to 100% of your posts, because a lot of it is rooted in your own perspective (and I'd guess philosophies on how stories should be engaged with) which I'm not setting out to change at all. So stuff like the "facade of complexity" you keep mentioning and the "100% connectivity" I don't really address since there's not really much I can say on them (save for trying to use objective errors to debunk the "100% connectivity" claim).
    This isn't to say that I think your perspectives are invalid at all, but only that they're hard to engage with since we'd need to pretty much go back into philosophical realms about stories are before we can reach a mutual understanding of all of these things.
     
  16. Kia

    Kia
    Wickedly Wanton Way with Words
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    Umm I don’t need everything spelled out and have never stated such. I simply pay close attention to all of the details that are presented because I believe that, even subconsciously, they have meaning that can provide more depth and insight into the series than that’s which is the simple surface answer. Tis the difference between saying that The Lion King is a story about a boy reclaiming his home from his treacherous uncle and saying it’s the story of how apartheid is a good thing and supporting nature versus nurture. As such, I don’t dismiss any detail, no matter how small because details make up the whole. I may miss them, because umm duh, it happens. But I don’t overlook them in the interest of simplification.
     
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  17. Jawahib

    Both Exotic and Professor
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    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    This 100000%

    An extra note that these details (good and bad) are still there if:
    -The series has been going on for many years
    -The author has gone to the hospital for overworking
    -No one else notices them
    -No one cares about them
     
  18. Marco Polo

    running with the wind
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    omg did you FINALLY watch Dragon Ball?

    You've done a really good job at winning an argument I've never really tried to make here. I'm just going to assume this is your opinion and you wanted to share it, in which case, cool.

    However, for pure argument's sake, I'm going to suggest a few "believable" ways that both the "Haki force field" and the "Hardening" versions of Armament can exist at the same time.

    Firstly, I want to refute this part of your statement:

    There's two issues I take with this. The first is that the Admiral's forcefield and Zoro's air slash have to be "normal" Haki uses for them to fit into the story. They're essentially alternative applications of the known properties of Armament Haki (forming a "defensive barrier", being able to hit Logias). They might take more targeted training to use, but their existence doesn't go against anything we've seen already and therefore believability is unaffected. (I hear someone in the back asking a question, and I'll answer it, promise).

    The second issue is the extrapolation you make from "small air slash" and "invisible barrier" to "anything goes". Theoretically, yes, that would be possible, but that would involve one of those things you call contradictions. Oda's spent a lot of time establishing some ground rules for Haki, one of which is that everyone has an inherent "limit" that once reached, they have to wait for their Haki to replenish. The fact that Haki has some sort of stamina drain is the first limiter on the "anything goes" idea - sure, they could probably do it for about a minute or so, but it's not a sustainable thing.

    Now, to address that question that someone in the back was asking earlier.

    "But if nothing about the force field/air slash is contradictory, how come we haven't seen it again?"

    1. Practicality

    A lot of One Piece fights are based around close-range combat. Currently, the Armament Haki application that suits that style of combat best is the "Hardening" style. It allows strong close quarters offence and defence all-in-one - you don't have to switch from an "attack mode" to a "defence mode" - you just keep your fists coated in Haki to block and punch. To use an air barrier as an additional defence takes setup time, which leaves a combatant vulnerable to attack as well as dividing their focus, slowing them down mentally.

    2. Proficiency/Specialty

    Regarding the forcefield, we've seen the following characters use it: Rayleigh, the Admirals and the Boa Sisters. Rayleigh and the three Admirals are characters we assume to have high proficiency in Haki due to their status in the OPverse, and the Kuja Tribe on Amazon Lily seemed to have their own unique way of using Armament (they also imbued their arrows with Haki iirc? The actual mechanic behind that opens a different set of questions for later). And regarding the air slash, that's a Zoro-exclusive technique so far, but you could quite reasonably assume that Mihawk is capable of the same feats given his status both as no.1 sword guy and Zoro's teacher. For both techniques, it's reasonable to assume that extensive training is needed to use them to the standard we've seen.

    3. Opportunity

    Put simply - the right situation for these applied techniques hasn't presented itself. Example: Zoro hasn't had to fight a Logia since Monet, so Haki slashes aren't needed.

    All in all, "Oda changed his mind" might end up being the case for these techniques (in fact I'd say it's fairly likely), but there's nothing in the series that directly contradicts the existence of these techniques, and just because Hardening is the hot thing right now doesn't mean that the "forcefield"-style applications are "B.S."
     
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  19. Jawahib

    Both Exotic and Professor
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    #79 Jawahib, Mar 14, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2019
    And so brother must turn against brother....
    I'm fully with Seiryu on this Haki factory problem raised by the Admirals' force field
    The issue isn't that we haven't seen it before, the issue is that when we did see it before we were given no context as to how Haki could be used in this way or even if it was special at all. Everyone seemed to immediately recognise it as Haki so clearly it's a well-known ability, but yet not even the top-tier New World Haki users we've seen seem to know how to use it, despite it being so potentially powerful that it has the capacity to redefine the entire dynamic of One Piece fights yet again (as Seiryu describes it, Green Lanterns vs Green Lanterns)?

    Oda's method of introducing Haki was to show us the power, then explain it afterwards. This is fine, but it makes it a bit of a difficult task for him since he clogged up his queue with so many things he needed to explain that he couldn't get around to all of them, and the Admirals' force field was a huge one he needed to explain, because as an ability, the notion of being able to apply Armament Haki to the air around you in any capacity is so far divorced from what was both explained and seen afterwards (and to this very day) that it is in the best interest of the series as a whole to pretend like it never happened.
    Oda's concept of pre-time skip Haki was a mini force-field that people could use offensively and defensively in numerous ways. Haki came with a "weaker" version that simply allowed a user to physically touch Logia Fruits, and there was no real connection to the force field concept. There was never meant to be such a reliance on the physical presence of a body/weapon involved with the use of Haki. See how Sentoumaru uses it to push Luffy away. See how Rayleigh uses it to push the elephant away (both manga and anime make it seem as though the point of contact with elephant was much larger than simply Rayleigh's fist, and to memory it never shows direct contact at all, implying the force field again). Additionally, it is known that weapons can be imbued with Haki to this same effect - to seemingly carry a force field that creates an explosion when the arrow lands. When we consider Haki in this way, as short bursts of pure force, the Admirals' force field seems like nothing out of the ordinary. Now, this whole force-field concept has a huge array of potential issues associated with it, but nothing that couldn't be explained away with a few expository lines like we got from Rayleigh.

    But then put all of those things next to post-time skip Haki. There's no connection: believability is hemorrhaging where Haki is involved at this point. Now Haki is a "coating", that requires a physical body to be placed on top of. This is originally played out like a level above pre-ts Haki, as though Haki is now being shown to give someone incredible strength when used for extended periods of time (not just "bursts" of force fields like we see with Rayleigh and Sentoumaru), change the very properties of their arms to be steel-like (Haki can be manifested as bodies of steel now), and in some cases actually change the very physique of a person (with Vergo's full-body coating, and Luffy's Gear 4th to a lesser extent). Now again, all this would be *fine*, but where did the pre-ts applications go? Even in times when a powerful force-field would be much more preferable to an Armament coating? Or is the force-field the superior application? If so, how much harder is it to learn? How much harder is it to use? Eventually one must come to the conclusion that we are not talking about superior and inferior applications of the same abilities, but different abilities entirely, and on top of that, one set of abilities appears to have become extinct over the time skip, at least in any useful capacity.

    Now, the reason these abilities must be considered utterly divorced from each other for the story to maintain any semblance of believability is due to these specific two powers: The ability of Haki to influence the air, and the ability of Haki to manifest as a body of steel. When you put them together you have the Green Lantern, or Haki Factory, problem. The story has not yet bothered to explain why these two abilities cannot be used together. We can guess and fill in the blanks, but that shouldn't be our job as the audience and it would have no place in an objective discussion.
    For example, I can hypothesise that the pre-ts use of Haki was limited to literally instantaneous, invisible force fields that could be used as attack and defense and that this power was accessible only by the best Haki users, and should be considered completely isolated from all other applications of Haki. OK, but why haven't the high-end Haki users we've seen after the time-skip used it when it would have been incredibly useful for them to do so? There are very few situations where spamming a DF-immune force field as a defensive strategy wouldn't be effective, and Sentoumaru's first encounter against Luffy is excellent proof of this. All the other problems revolve around the limits of this power and its lack of explanation. Is it limited to coming out of the body? Can it be extended nearby in the air? How difficult is to learn? What does it cost to activate or maintain? Can the force field be maintained for prolonged periods of time with training? Why hasn't anyone endeavoured to learn such a thing? All of these problems are beside the fact that nothing of the sort is explained by the story. There is no scenario available (at least that I can fathom) that won't have the same number of issues or more as this hypothesised one does.

    All of this is just to get the point across that just because it was seen before, doesn't mean that believability is happy. Believability didn't mind waiting for an explanation, but we've seen way too many possibly contradictory scenarios that are yet to be explained that it's thrown up its hands and given up, especially after the explanation provided by the story addressed none of these issues.
    You might have noted that I haven't even talked about Zoro's slash yet, but let's get to that now :P
    Actually I disagree with Seiryu's logic that the "small air slash" is in any way related to the "invisible barrier". The invisible barrier was its own thing. It was an entity with its own physical properties (invisible, sturdy enough to withstand a quake, etc), and had no intrinsic attachment to anything around it. One could argue that it was imbued into the air around the Admirals, but this is a beeline directly to the Haki factory (if Haki can be imbued into the air at the users' discretion, it can be made to take all sorts of shapes, even if they are still invisible), so we cannot conclude this for fear we'll break the OP world with Green Lanterns, so we'll assume it was entirely its own thing.
    Zoro's slash on the other hand had Haki intrinsically imbued into the air that was being slashed. Mechanically, we're talking different things. The property of Haki that allows Logia users to be cut was attached to the air slash in the same way it can be attached to a Haki user's body and weapons. This is so incredibly different at a mechanical level, because there's no real way around the Haki factory at this point, unless you want to argue that it's only sword slashes that work, but then as you start analysing what exactly the air slash is and realise it's just incredibly powerful waves of air that can now carry Haki you encounter this solid wall with "HAKI FACTORY" written on it that you can't really get around unless you start inventing incredibly ridiculous things that will not be able to stand up to scrutiny (I'm willing to put this claim to the test).
    In terms of properties, there are still a whole variety of things that differ between air slashes and Haki walls, so I can't in good conscience conflate them in any way really.

    Actually disagree with this evidence. Oda's only established a limit on Haki insofar as Gear Fourth is concerned. We're yet to see (iirc) anyone else encounter this limit in any way. In fact based on how liberal other characters are with Haki it seems that specifically Luffy's Gear Fourth is the only example of an Armament Haki limit being applied at all. Katakuri has no problem pulling out Block Mochi for hours on end, Luffy even can use Armament for the same amount of time, and it's never mentioned that as the time goes on that either are running out of Haki, or that the use of Haki is even exhausting them in any way. It's only when Gear Fourth comes out that the clock starts counting down and the actual use of Haki is what's taking a toll.
    Not do dismiss it entirely, but this isn't concrete enough to justify how much harder it is to maintain a Haki wall vs a Haki sword slash, and that's aside from the fact that I consider these entirely different powers anyway.

    Absolutely not, and Sentoumaru vs Luffy embodies this. Luffy can't even get close enough to smell the bloke and his arm bounces off like it's nothing. Practically the ability to create force fields to stave off attacks would be ridiculously useful in just about every conceivable combat context.
    Oh yeah forgot about the Boa Sisters lol.
    But no, we can't assume these things. Mihawk opens the war at Marineford with a gigantic, spectacular slash aimed directly at Whitebeard. If we make the logical conclusions you have, it's a huge problem in the story that it wasn't imbued with Haki. It would have gone straight through Jozu if it was and I imagine only WB himself would have been able to stop it. But for some reason that isn't ever explained (though it's easy to speculate on, these things wouldn't assist an objective discussion), he just doesn't imbue it with Haki.
    In analysis of this scene it's as though the story is telling us he can't, but it doesn't make sense given that Zoro can. So it doesn't make sense if he can imbue with Haki because he didn't when he should've, and it doesn't make sense if he can't imbue with Haki since Zoro can and as you say, he's Zoro's teacher and the world's no.1. The best benefit of the doubt we can give the story is that it's missing information that we may get later, but at this point I doubt we'll ever get it. This kind of thing is usually called a contradiction, and the only thing that can save it outside of Oda explaining it in the story is people inventing their own theory to fill the gap (though such a theory would be incredibly difficult to keep consistent with all the information we have about this topic. Best one I can think of is that Mihawk didn't actually want to kill WB, but put on a show that he was helping, or perhaps he was just being experimental and didn't want to go "all out", but both of these still have quite a number of issues).

    Again, Luffy vs Sentoumaru is a clear example of using a force field in combat to great effect. So the idea that it's impractical in any way just doesn't stand. Mihawk would have been able to kill Jozu if he had used Haki in that slash - Buggy too actually when he slashes him later, so we have seen times where the opportunity was there but inexplicably not taken.
     
  20. Seiryu

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    And based on Oda's pattern of making thing believable, doesn't that contradict? Yes, it is true that Oda is one step away from absolute chaos with haki too, but I'm completely perplexed at the relatively low level of faith despite superhuman levels of consistency. Do you honestly expect Oda to go full Green Lantern?

    I'm not dense enough to pick on the joke/sarcasm aspect, but my gut says part of you is underestimating Oda's ability to maintain believability despite the 22 years.
    And that's probably the difference between the part where I keep saying I'm just going to round it up because it is a statistically insignificant percentage, topic, point of disconnect, etc. I'm not going to operate on pure definition most of the time because that is improbable and non-functional. If it's statistically significantly close to 100% I'm gonna call it 100%. I'm not gonna get caught up in the insignificant matters because that's probably exactly why the long discussions just go in circles. So I have to ask two parts: do we agree on the rationale of rounding up when "statistically significant differences" do not apply (sub question: I'm not sure if you have had to take statistics, but do you know what I'm referring to with "statistically significant differences"?) Do you honestly think real B.S. is so prevalent that it exceeds the 5% +/- 2-3% to be statistically significant? This second question is primarily by chapters (935 currently) or a more accurate count of total panels (there may be some other alternative but whatever).
    No no no...I'm not talking about the Gears, I'm talking about the entire series. One Piece the story and all of the various intricacies to it. We both agree that the beliveability of the entire series is still damn solid as a whole (or at least that's the gist I'm getting). If Oda isn't planning all of this out, he's the luckiest bastard in the entire world (for all of these spur of the moment decisions, clarified to be relatively few if I'm remembering correctly, to still line up with extremely high levels of believability).

    I guess I'll go along with "Gear 1.5". Wouldn't you agree that an intelligence power-up contradicts Luffy? Not so easy in my opinion. So actually, that's my point. Because of the facade of complexity, it may seem easy to have it fit perfectly (which the discussions indicate that we agree it is pretty much at the human levels of perfection by believability levels) but it's not that easy. Also, the Gears are all based on air insertion into an organ/altering the function of an organ (cardiovascular system for Gear Second). So that in itself is going to limit your options/believability.
    Nami is never shown drawing a map recently (she was super early on). Does that mean she's not putting in the work to accomplish her dream? Sanji is never shown failing with his new recipes, but that's physically impossible to never have a failed experiment in at least one variable 100% of the time. Usopp is never shown practicing with his slingshot or cannons (outside of his first lucky attempt). Even for the "in-fight" training alone, this is inadequate and makes their levels of jumps irrational. Just because it isn't shown doesn't mean it isn't happening (haki training, physical training, skill training, etc.). Did Nami just magically get the cool/heat ball ratio just right to create mirages on her first attempt? Even with her manga-exaggerated weather sensitivity, I'd say no. Content implies the failures resulted in the various distorted mirages (Califa is the visual I'm recalling). She memorizes the associated ratios and mastered it to the point she can do each immediately.

    Ah almost forgot: do you think all of the power-ups are completely rationale without off-screen training? Oda is correctly omitting it until now (since Luffy is massively out of his league). Because of the redundancy, I hated pretty much every training aspect of DBZ (maybe the only exception is Vegeta slightly being a decent parent to Trunks but that's just more out of sentimental stuff rather than the training itself).
    And this is exactly my point. It is a "minuscule" disconnect. If Oda has to do all of this to fulfill your level of believability, it is damn near impossible to still fit every other breadcrumb and still have cliffhangers every chapter. When Oda is on his game and every panel plays a key role (Oda and his team have to have scenery panels for the anime to use, and usually use multiple times, so these are extremely important), where is he supposed to fit this? The recent and dramatic drop of cliffhanger quality is directly related to the real B.S. (since comments imply we all agree on the presence, just not the extent/level).

    I'm gonna say it again, you completely overestimate Oda in some aspects and completely underestimate him in others. Facade of complexity...that's all it is. Yes, I'm going to have to sound like an ass "ripping" posts apart, but I'm all ears if someone here can find a magic alternative to changing a person's bias.
    And that's a big part of my big picture point. We are going to universally agree on a damn high percentage of all points if we discuss from the same context. So now I'm super curious to see your answer to the above. Yes, if I'm completely blunt, I think you are expecting impossible things from Oda in that he will lose mental and or physical health doing more than what he's doing. He's already doing enough to minimize it to "minuscule" disconnect and even with that it is so insignificant ("statistically significant" not significant in personal/emotional importance) that most fans do not even think about it/do not even recognize the existence of a problem. So yes, I do fully think Oda is correct in his "figure it out yourselves" request. It's all there and we only have had 1 breadcrumb not blatant/direct (the completely open-ended bathhouse discussion). Oda is making an attempt to change parts of his writing style, but it can only be to a certain extent without altering believability.
    Really? So you think it is completely rational to go into a life/death situation (constantly) with the bare minimum preparation? They are forced into realizing the risks of the world as kids (they all could have died, well except Usopp unless he really pissed off Kurahadol). Again, just because it is not shown and what is shown is their carefree attitude/personalities, they buckle down and put in the work when they have to. That is exactly why they are reliable. Do you not think all of them know a real life/death situation? Do you think all of them are completely irrational/immature to think they are invincible no matter what happens?

    I hope you don't take the questions targeting the context differences personally (looks like @Marco Polo is) but I ignore a certain amount of jabs per my norm. I'm observant enough to know the effects of "ripping posts apart", but just have to double check with you since I know you and Marco are close (maybe you don't have a problem but Marco has your back, which I completely agree with/would expect). Out of time, so I'll continue later in a edit/new post.
     

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