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One Piece Chapter 890 "Big Mom on Deck"

Discussion in 'Past Chapters' started by Chaudfontaine, Dec 29, 2017.

  1. vinna

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    There's a vídeo from Joyboy in YouTube where he suggests that BM isn't having eating disorder breakdown, but she's experience a abstinence instead, and well, looking BM as a super over power sugar junkie being cold as a turkey really helps to understand her actions and her errors/flaws during this battle. This even helps to imagine how different she could act in a planned fight. And more, she's been a Yonko for a long time, how one could possible discover this weakness? I mean, Luffy's ultimate determination is playing a fundamental role in this mess.
     
  2. Seiryu

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    She has the one to plan perfect traps from the start (especially in terms of the Mugiwara members present). From Luffy and all the way down, she had their weaknesses completely manipulated. Doflamingo tried to manipulate people like a marionette, but Big Mom is the only person in the entire series to pull it off. For me, I've always readily found flaws of strategies, but Big Mom's plans had none (except the vivre card).

    We've only seen her fight in her berserker, food-craving mode. All of the commentary by her children implies that she is not thinking clearly in this state.

    @vinna I would argue that it is probably a combination of both the extreme food craving and her high metabolism. Abstinence carries similar implications. The reason the "weakness" has remained hidden is the mass of pastry chefs in conjunction with access to almost any ingredient lets them make the necessary craving in a timely manner under normal situations.
     
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  3. Jawahib

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    But the plans failed though. The only ones she manipulated successfully were Sanji and the Vinsmokes. The grand scheme involving Pudding tricking the Straw Hats failed miserably: she could have had Pudding do anything to mess them up (wipe their memories of each other, lure them into a legit trap that was more than "creepy forest + Brulee"). And one of the primary strengths of a strategist is to be able to not only scheme, but act decisively and strategically on the spot and when things go wrong. But not only does she become mentally incapacitated in her rages, she didn't even have a backup plan for the Vinsmoke Assassination. You'd think that risking the entire plan on Sanji being surprised at Pudding's third eye would warrant a "If something goes wrong and Pudding doesn't get him, we'll have a Commander on standby ready to take him out immediately".

    The only thing that sets her apart from Doflamingo in terms of manipulation is that she had both the influence and resources to scheme more elaborate and profitable plans, not necessarily the greater mind.

    And in fairness, Doflamingo wasn't as much manipulating people as torturing them (talking about Dressrosa). He'd already achieved everything he wanted, but keeping Rebecca, Riku and Viola alive were his way of punishing them.
     
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  4. Marco Polo

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    It seems I've missed a lot of the discussion
    Might as well jump in now though

    The Pudding aspect of this plan is one that I'm not sure about - when she revealed her plan to Luffy and Nami, that was a huge gamble that ended up backfiring. I'm still torn as to whether this was a massive oversight on Big Mom's part in terms of letting Pudding, who has some kind of personality disorder, run free, or if the plan all along was to dangle Sanji's death in their faces while Luffy and co. were powerless to stop it.

    However, I think Big Mom's biggest oversight, and where the game shifted back into the Straw Hats' favour, wasn't actually related to the Straw Hat/Vinsmoke plans. For me, it was when she failed to dispose of Jinbe when he declared he'd be doing a mutiny.

    I disagree with you here (a rare occurrence) as to where this part of her plan exactly fell apart. This wedding is on Big Mom's turf, with her whole crew present. Arguably, Katakuri with his future sight alone is a sufficient Plan B
    In a world where things go Big Mom's way, this is how I imagine the wedding scenario would have gone down had the third eye reveal not worked:

    > Sanji has the same reaction to Pudding's third eye as he did in 862 (or whichever chapter it happened in)
    > Pudding breaks down and cries
    > Katakuri, who would have been using his future sight because he's paranoid, would have gone in and done the bean thing he did
    > If Sanji dodges, he's massively outnumbered: his family are unable to help him - they don't have their raid suits and Perospero had them trapped in candy. Meaning it's Sanji against Big Mom's entire crew.
    > If Sanji doesn't dodge, he's dead.

    This for me is what did Big Mom in; the precautions she took at the wedding in terms of security were clearly insufficient to deal with the Straw Hat/Bege intervention. But then, her security team were both overconfident and incompetent:

    one-piece-8871925.jpg

    one-piece-8871931.jpg

    one-piece-8871937.jpg

    So I'd argue that this one's not entirely on Big Mom - sure, she was far too trusting of Capone and co, but as far as not planning ahead for the Straw Hat invasion, there's very little more she could have done considering she would have recieved inaccurate information
     
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  5. Jawahib

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    I agree with you that it's not entirely her fault, but from my perspective, all she did is scheme, not strategise. All she thought about was her end, and 99% of the time all she needs to think about is her end as her victims are helpless next to her. She'll create an elaborate trap and then laugh as people fall into it. Scheming is done in the comfort of her palace, enacted with the support of her crew, and undertaken with next to no external pressure. Strategising is what's done in the moment, using as many variables to predict the opponent's course of action and then acting decisively to counter it. Maybe I'm overthinking it, but to me, sitting in a palace and concocting sinister schemes isn't a great display of intelligence; it doesn't even compare to the kind of thinking that we've seen the likes of Sanji and sometimes even Luffy pull off in dire circumstances.

    In my mind strategies compete with each other from two opponents - it involves outsmarting the opponent. Big Mom makes traps, not strategies, and everything's set up so that the victim has lost as soon as he realises what's happened. The smartest person in the world would get caught in a trap laid by any pleb as long as they can't see it coming, and when you've the resources of Big Mom, it's easy to cover your tracks.

    Idk, I still can't come even close to agreeing with the statement that Big Mom is a good strategist, let alone "the best strategist in the ENTIRE series".
     
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  6. Marco Polo

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    No that's fair, I do think her actual "strategising" ability is a little underwhelming since she either assumes she'll get what she wants, or her crew will be too scared of dying to tell her she's not getting it.

    They're also very dependent on certain people; in this case it was Pudding, who messed up big time in the prison, and then again on the wedding day itself (even though I don't think it would have mattered). In the past it was Lola, who Big Mom now hates because she hinged her going to Raftel on an arranged marriage that ended up not happening.

    She's very good at using her resources to her advantage (I think her resources are her "power"), but we've seen that her overconfidence in her plans succeeding without a hitch, as well as her mental instability, are huge weaknesses that can easily be exploited by the right people
     
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  7. Seiryu

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    The outcome doesn't change the fact that is was still the perfect plan. Of course Oda is going to have a miraculous way out for the protagonists. The fact that he had to make the vivre card super overpowered reflects how solid the plan was.

    Doflamingo was quite tactical. Right off the bat, he had that plan to trap Law and Luffy (on top of his in-fight tactics to adapt to two of the most unique fruit abilities). It was probably the whole family, but he clearly established a defensive system to maximize the abilities of the his executives. Oda has always had good twists, but he's gotten exponentially better at building deeper holes for the crew to dig out of. Part of this is Oda's development as a storyteller, but I would be willing to bet we don't see this with Kaidou. Someone may exceed Big Mom later in the series, but it does not change that she is the best thus far.
     
  8. Jawahib

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    I'd argue that the outcome is the only way to determine the quality of a plan. You never know how good a plan really is until it's put into action, and these ones failed, so they don't even come close to perfect.
    From our perspective, yes, but Big Mom would know the potential power of the Vivre card (they belong to her after all) and taken much greater measures to end the Straw Hats once she learned that they had one, and what with Brulee's ability and the hordes of her followers in the Seducing Woods, it's not realistic to think that she didn't know, especially with her reputation as a person who knows everything.

    I'll agree this is definitely the tightest spot the Straw Hats have been in (save for Sabaody), and I agree that I doubt we'll see something like this again, but that's only partially due to Big Mom's plan. Ironically, the fact that they're all in this tight spot is contrary to anything she ever planned.

    Refer to my above comment when I distinguish planning from strategising though. This scheme of hers isn't really a show of intelligence, just craftiness. Her mind doesn't think of moves and counter-moves, just laying a trap for her victims, and with her resources, they don't even need to be that elaborate to succeed and create the illusion that she's the smartest ever.

    If you want to see real strategists, check out the likes of Sanji, Usopp, Dogtooth - people who can think on the fly and make strategic decisions decisively. Who have to compete with the opponent's strategy to emerge victorious. Like, Big Mom's not the kind of person who'd be good at chess imo. She had an incredible advantage over anyone she's ever faced her whole life - pretty much born with the strength of a Yonko. That's not the stuff of a strategist, that's the stuff of someone who just likes to mess with people knowing full well they can't do anything to stop her.
    I hope you get what I'm trying to say here
     
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  9. Owl

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    Brook, man of the arc. Always rated him. :yay: That was pretty awesome.

    Nami can be scary, though. Poor little Zeus.
     
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  10. Cosmos

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    What a great arc! This fight has been so awesome! Everyone's abilities are working so well together!

    Also brook? He is revealing himself!! How useful is he proving to be?! And strong too.

    This battle on the ship has got to be one of my preferred one's. It just shows how much they have grown, and how the crew, cooperating, can level up to a Yonko (Even if the yank is hungry its still amazing).

    Also this was my favourite panel:
    Screen Shot 2018-01-11 at 18.53.17.png

    The jokes are always there in One piece! Even in the worst case scenarios! :tearsofjoy:
     
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  11. Seiryu

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    By the original logic, only the Mugiwara will have any strategic advantage. Big Mom led them into a corner and they didn't even realize it until they were completely trapped. That far exceeds coming up with something on the fly. Strategy is seeing as many possibilities and planning for as many as possible. Usopp, Sanji, etc. only play checkers (individual fighting strategy). Big Mom is the one playing chess. Her plans have nothing to do with her physical advantages. She literally just used her pawns (primarily the homies) and Pudding to put the crew in a compete crap hole.

    Maybe it's my martial arts background, but the "strategy" you reference is nothing more than battle/sparring experience. For most people that train long enough, that's all instinctual. Like everything else, we agree on the big picture but disagree on the details.
     
  12. Chicano180

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    Seems to me like you guys got the best strategist all wrong....#TeamCroco is likely to be the best strategist imo
     
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  13. Jawahib

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    That's not the point though. Playing chess means competing on an even playing field. When I reference her strength I'm referring to her influence. She's a spider luring flies into her web, not a chess player. She always has the advantage unless she's against another Yonko. She can mess people up 1000 different ways knowing that even if she gets a couple things wrong, there will never be any damaging consequences to it:

    "I want Germa, and nothing's gonna stop me! I want their research so I can't risk attacking otherwise they'll destroy it before we get there, so I'll lure them. I'll offer them power - a marriage. My 3-eyed freakish daughter will finally have a purpose... What's this? Their child who they'll marry off is a Straw Hat? I'll send the invitation. I also need to find someone he cares about, and just in case I'll send over the slave cuffs..."
    Thorough: yes, evil: yes, devious: yes, a superior strategist: can't say. Consider, if it all goes wrong - if they catch on to her scheme, what are they going to do? She already has the cloning facilities. Worst case scenario was that she didn't get the clones, or she simply declared war and wiped them out, still risking the cloning facilities if they had an emergency shut down, but from what we've seen of BM she'd take that chance and from what we've seen of Judge he wouldn't have put such a safeguard in place. This strategy has next to no risk to BM or her crew.

    To me then, her strategies are not a sign of superior intelligence, just intellectual competence with bucketfuls of deviousness.

    The reason I talk about in-combat strategy is because that's when intelligence shines through. Anyone can sit in a castle with one of the strongest armies in the world and create plans and traps, but only a select few intelligent people can do so under pressure when their strategy will make the difference between victory and defeat - sometimes life and death.

    I'd honestly believe that Crocodile is a better strategist than BM with little problem.
     
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  14. Seiryu

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    I would agree with this clarification completely (first part at least). To follow with the "chess" analogy, my bias is that it was a completely level playing field at the start (Sanji's decision to go with Bege alone). Luffy was stupid and naive enough to infiltrate without any plan (gets completely saved by Pedro). In terms of the "chess match", he willingly sacrificed key pieces and had an all out blitz without protection for the advancing pieces. Big Mom is so good at chess, she laid out psychological warfare to get Luffy to make these mistakes before the match even started. Smack-talk is key for precision games/sports, and Big Mom was playing "chess" before the "chess match" even started. The fact that it was a perfect placed "spider net" from the very beginning is my half of the petty details (she literally read Luffy like a book and laid out the spider net with nothing but her pawns). I think this is the first time we fully clarified/bridged the difference though (the only reason for me to respond).
     

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