1. The results of the Member of the Year voting are in... Find out who won!
  2. The first PAW of the year... Check it out!
  3. We have a new Facebook page! You can like it by clicking HERE!

One Piece Chapter 966: Roger and Whitebeard

Discussion in 'Past Chapters' started by Gogu48, Dec 20, 2019.

  1. Kia

    Kia
    “Don’t try to find a reason for somebody’s love.”
    Supernova Member of the Year 2019
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2018
    Messages:
    3,082
    Likes Received:
    2,692
    Trophy Points:
    10,970
    Gender:
    Female
    You’re operating under false premises/presumptions. It is not universal that women will be drawn to nurture their children after childbirth. Yes, there’s the presence of oxytocin which is generally pre-existing to some degree before the child is presented to them causing a more rapidly possible spike as opposed to with the males whose levels wouldn’t spike until days after being presented with the child but would still reach the same high levels. However, this negates the existence of those who reject their children entirely—which happens. Of course, you’re also ignoring those very males of which I just spoke. Males have plenty of ability to bond with children and have instincts. It’s not limited to females. The structure of the brains is such that it varies from individual to individual and is not neatly separated from one sex to another. Which centers are activated and how is determined on an individual basis. https://relay.nationalgeographic.co...018-maternal-instinct-oxytocin-babies-science To check out some of what I’m talking about. Also this is similarly relevant.

    I’ve listed several possible circumstances that would fit. You’re simply stating that Rayleigh would only care about his own child because you have an antiquated 1950s notion of gender roles and how people relate to children. Apparently men can’t care about anyone that’s not their kid. Women are predisposed to push out and nurture kids—I guess we should just be barefoot and pregnant. Why did I bother getting a degree? Good thing I’m disabled now and just taking care of the house like a proper woman. Sorry, I’m triggered. But honestly. The whole spouting off things as fact with no sources and having them be such incendiary things as this is kind of like whoa. It’s easy to say “oh Oda doesn’t write women well—he’s stuck in the past. I’m just interpreting.” But in this case, it feels like your bias coming through hardcore.

    If I’m wrong, so be it. I’ll accept that there’s a mystery child. I never said that that wasn’t a possibility. I simply refuse to believe that it’s the only possibility—especially with the logic given.
     
    mysticalflute likes this.
  2. Seiryu

    Moderator
    Moderator
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2016
    Messages:
    3,562
    Likes Received:
    2,656
    Trophy Points:
    11,740
    Is the physiological effect universal? Per my physiological understanding it is. The psychological effect can be nullified but the physiological effect is still there. We're still arguing two different things. I'm focused on the physiological effect, you appear to be focused on the emotional effect. Why argue gray area? That's going to be an endless loop, and we actually agree on the gray area for this point. So just to re-clarify since you were in and out of the long discussion, I'm not skipping things. I fully agree with the other aspects (100% agree with the statement below too). Just because I sound angry doesn't mean I am. I just naturally come across as a blunt ass when I write.
    So I'm saying based on Rayleigh's stated personality by the manga, this is his implied normal response. Something big has to be the catylist for the mental/emotional response to be overridden.
    Hopefully the above addresses this aspect.
    I'll bring this back to what I was referencing since something got lost in translation. Rayleigh is shown to be the "bad parent" and is always the one stuck disciplining Shanks/Buggy. We are shown their introduction to the crew (they aren't infants and are of the kiddie appearances shown in this chapter). Rayleigh despises the "new recruits" (how we know they are taken on the ship at that time) because he knows they will slow him down and he is stuck keeping them in check (Roger never will take the responsibility so it's all stuck on Rayleigh; just like the rest of the crew is stuck being responsible since Luffy won't do it).

    Rayleigh himself is displaying the complete lack of care towards kids. Thus, the even greater discrepancy on the panel in question. Rayleigh himself is following the "stereotypes". Oda doesn't show it and probably to keep people having a positive opinion of Rayleigh. So I'm going to bring it up again, why are we ignoring Rayleigh's "Dark King" title? That's the basis of the entire context here.

    Edit: I know 100% this came up before in discussions between you and I but the intricacies of long discussions is not going as smoothly as it could. For my writing style, I have to "rip posts apart" because the discrepancies/misconceptions have to be clarified. We are in 99.99% agreement and even on the "gray area" here. I don't know of any male member here that has been more vocal directly for women and their limited role in the series. This context is completely different though. Rayleigh is obviously very "old timer" in his mindset and that is his age. He's obviously changed with the times too since he's much more laid back when we meet him in Shabondy. He's still only the Dark King in the panel in question though and that is my point.
     
  3. Kia

    Kia
    “Don’t try to find a reason for somebody’s love.”
    Supernova Member of the Year 2019
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2018
    Messages:
    3,082
    Likes Received:
    2,692
    Trophy Points:
    10,970
    Gender:
    Female
    Did you read the articles that I posted and/or my entire post? Or did you skim? Nothing is universal. The physiological impact of the oxytocin elevation occurs in various degrees in both males AND females. The brain structures are found to be such that the distribution cannot be predicted based on biological sex. Thus, your statements don’t hold water.

    You’re citing when Buggy/Shanks joined the crew and Rayleigh’s reaction to them—fine, they were children, not babies—they don’t count. We’re talking about responses to babies because there’s something inherent in babies themselves that inspires theses responses. I referenced infant cuteness studies and oxytocin responses. These all were related to babies. Bringing in the relationship of Rayleigh to the older children doesn’t matter. I’ve been talking about the probability that Rayleigh and/or Roger came in contact with another infant at some other point in the past and thus was reminded of it. The fact that it could merely have been his friend’s baby, his relative’s baby, any baby with whom he spent time. The chemicals are the chemicals. The response is the same. There’s nothing that says it had to be his biological child. You’re reaching.

    Or maybe I wasn’t blunt enough? It’s all my fault for forgetting to whom I was speaking. The response isn’t universal in males or females. There’s a diverse distribution amongst both. Thus, there’s a possibility that Rayleigh held a baby in his past—holy crap! What a revelation!! It’s exactly as he said in the panels—alert the presses. Someone he was close to had a baby. Roger knew it as well. *gasp*

    Furthermore, have you seen Shanks and Buggy? They’re little hellions! There’s a huge difference between disciplining them and holding a newborn. I don’t even like kids and I know that you’d react to and handle them differently. One needs discipline to give it structure and guidance so it can thrive and the other is pure and untainted so it just needs to be handled gently but firmly so it’s supported and cradled, secure and safe. It’s not rocket surgery.

    Ugh. I shouldn’t have even written this after vaping for my pain. My filter is completely broken and my thoughts are likely incoherent. But whatever. It’s done and I’m not about to waste the spoons I spent typing this. *sigh*
     
    mysticalflute likes this.
  4. Deathbloke

    banned.
    Captain
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2013
    Messages:
    2,306
    Likes Received:
    1,637
    Trophy Points:
    8,515
    Gender:
    Male
    Calm down, you're talking about a tiny detail of a page here, take it easy :P
     
    Seiryu likes this.
  5. Kia

    Kia
    “Don’t try to find a reason for somebody’s love.”
    Supernova Member of the Year 2019
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2018
    Messages:
    3,082
    Likes Received:
    2,692
    Trophy Points:
    10,970
    Gender:
    Female
    I know. It wasn’t worth getting that irritated over. I should’ve not checked my alerts anymore last night. I just get annoyed when people speak as if they have this breadth of knowledge (in broad generalities and of universality) with nothing to back them up. This is especially true when they keep asking me to prove my stance, that I’ve already proven, and provided sources for, and they’ve admitted themselves that they have a tendency not to fully read people’s posts.

    I enjoy a fruitful discussion but this really doesn’t seem to be it, unfortunately. *sigh*
     
  6. Seiryu

    Moderator
    Moderator
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2016
    Messages:
    3,562
    Likes Received:
    2,656
    Trophy Points:
    11,740
    Running two businesses, I don't have the time. So I'm only skimming. This totally goes back to the long discussion though...

    Really? Is gravity not universal on Earth? Is how a neuron turns on a muscle not universal? Is 5+5=10 not universal? The physiology is close enough to universal to call it universal. I'm not going to count some 0.0000001% phenomenon and talk about it like it happens all the time. That's just the reality of the universe. There are universal laws. Can there be some rare occurrence that creates a discrepancy? Of course. It ain't happening regularly and most people never experience it even once in their lifetime.
    You are stating right here that the levels are different. It is going to have a different physiological effect on males and females. Obviously a person's emotion/mental attitude can override the physiological effect. => an "old fashioned" male like Rayleigh is going to have a blunted effect than almost anyone else. Why are we avoiding the "Dark King" aspect? That is my whole point. I 100% agree with everything else already.
    I only brought up Shanks/Buggy because both you and Ryokugyu brought them up as a counterargument. I'm just negating the counterargument.

    So if we're going to focus on the cute reaction, again I 100% agree on the mechanics of it. But we are not addressing the main context of Rayleigh himself. He is the one biased against it. His nature is such that he says himself he doesn't like having to look after kids. The term "gaki" is a universal disrespectful term for babies/kids (any non-adult; I guess can be used for adults and be extra disrespectful). I bring that up since you are familiar with common Japanese terms. I keep bringing this up because chances are I 100% agree with everything else already. So again, I'm not "ignoring" the other aspects because I already agree 100%.

    It looks like I might have to go quote by quote and say I 100% agree with this, but whatever it takes.
    And if it's having a negative effect on you physically, then I would agree with just stopping here.
    I'm glad you care enough to verbalize it. It won't have the same effect coming from me.
    Because we are arguing different topics => the whole 6 vs. 9 perspective from opposite sides. I'm already in 100% agreement on the cute effect and obviously I have to state so more bluntly.
     
  7. Deathbloke

    banned.
    Captain
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2013
    Messages:
    2,306
    Likes Received:
    1,637
    Trophy Points:
    8,515
    Gender:
    Male
    Well, I saw some aggressiveness where it wasn't necessary about a tiny detail. It's not worth fighting over something this minute. Peace out lol
     
  8. Seiryu

    Moderator
    Moderator
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2016
    Messages:
    3,562
    Likes Received:
    2,656
    Trophy Points:
    11,740
    Haha...unnecessary for the average fan. That's the extent us "overanalytical" people do all the time. The universal trend is that 99.99% of the content is in agreement since Oda is just that damn good. We are arguing different things though.

    @Kia So I should take the time to extend an olive branch since chemical coping is far from the best option (any why the U.S. medical system is crap since it's driven by money and not the well being of patients). I skip stuff primarily because I don't have the time. In general, if I'm making extra time here, I'm taking away time I should be doing real life work. At the same time, I can skip stuff because I get poker reads on people. You are obviously highly passionate about the topic, and that is perfectly understandable since that's the world is. It shouldn't be that way, but at least it is slowly changing for the better.

    I am "old school", and I probably shouldn't use the word but I can't think of any other word right now, so I don't see the need of babying every step. We just have different personalities/views of how to do things. Just like the unnecessary apologies, I feel like I know the context of the situation and you/your morals well enough that nothing needs to be said. You feel it has to be said, and to each their own. Finding the compromise is key.

    So if I could change time, it looks like something like: "oh, you are 100% right on the mechanics of the cute effect...but _". All of the "fluff" gets things on a different tangent and that is universal (the entire long discussion with Yuz). Even here with Shanks/Buggy. Any long discussion needs hyper-focus on the point of discrepancy and not on the fluff since that is where bias just takes over. There needs to be clarification of key fluff (the papers on the physiology of the cute effect). Maybe I'm not direct enough with "hey, I got ya". Maybe I didn't state it in the previous post. At least I know what to do in the future, so thanks for the discussion.

    No body likes having their opinion "ripped apart" so I have assume that's where the additional emotion starts contributing. I do my best to be objective and professional with my word choice as much as possible but at least stuff like this is a potential learning experience.

    I am worried about you if life as a whole has you to the point of writing those last 3 paragraphs and having to vape to deal with the stress. At least for me, getting a clarification on a contributing factor is closure, so that's why I am writing all of this, but I still stand by the previous post that it's best to just drop it if the compartmentalization cannot occur. Hopefully just life being chaotic and the new years brings good stuff with it.
     
    Deathbloke likes this.
  9. Kia

    Kia
    “Don’t try to find a reason for somebody’s love.”
    Supernova Member of the Year 2019
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2018
    Messages:
    3,082
    Likes Received:
    2,692
    Trophy Points:
    10,970
    Gender:
    Female
    I wasn’t clear. I meant nothing in this conversation is universal. The oxytocin levels measured in the studies, as I stated, were measured at the same levels in males and females. They are not universally high in females. There is no universal nurturing response in females as there exists a variance in the responses amongst both biological sexes.

    Thank you both @Deathbloke and @Seiryu for your concern. I vape to deal with the constant pain of my condition, not the stress of our conversation. I simply was stating that I shouldn’t have continued to engage in the conversation after having done so as it impaired my ability to properly articulate my point and moderate my tone or frustration. I don’t care if my posts are ripped apart—if they’re actually read in minute detail to be done so properly. @Jawahib rips my posts apart all day long but he actually reads them thoroughly so our debates feel fruitful and not like I’m beating my head against a wall. For one who brags about his time spent writing papers, you put little of those skills to work providing sources for your “facts”.

    Honestly, it’s nice to know that you guys think that I’m drugging myself over a manga debate though. I do have more of a life than that lol. If that were the case, I would definitely need an intervention.

    I’m content to drop it, as I said. That’s fine. But don’t leave it as “Oh, poor Kia. She’s all wound up and hysterical over this little thing and had to vape because her and Seiryu couldn’t come to terms and it stressed her out.” It’s more like, “She’s got a chronic health condition, is in constant pain, and a low BS tolerance. When her pain levels are stupid high and she medicates, all bets are off.” So again, thanks for the concern but at least direct it properly if you’re going to have it. Take care and happy new year, everyone. ^_^
     
  10. Deathbloke

    banned.
    Captain
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2013
    Messages:
    2,306
    Likes Received:
    1,637
    Trophy Points:
    8,515
    Gender:
    Male
    Why the plural? I just told you to take it easy, I knew why you're vaping.
     
  11. Kia

    Kia
    “Don’t try to find a reason for somebody’s love.”
    Supernova Member of the Year 2019
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2018
    Messages:
    3,082
    Likes Received:
    2,692
    Trophy Points:
    10,970
    Gender:
    Female
    My bad. I saw the like on his post so it implied that you agreed with his sentiments. I don’t assume what people do and do not know. Or what they’re intentions are. And I carried it over to anyone else reading it as well that might interpret the words of the authority figure as the correct ones. It was a generic “you guys” for anyone who read his words and thought he was correct. ^_^
     
  12. Deathbloke

    banned.
    Captain
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2013
    Messages:
    2,306
    Likes Received:
    1,637
    Trophy Points:
    8,515
    Gender:
    Male
    The like went to this:
    Anyway, I'm not going to interfere in your discussion/brawl any longer, it's a boomerang trying to calm things down...
     
    Seiryu likes this.
  13. Kia

    Kia
    “Don’t try to find a reason for somebody’s love.”
    Supernova Member of the Year 2019
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2018
    Messages:
    3,082
    Likes Received:
    2,692
    Trophy Points:
    10,970
    Gender:
    Female
    Thanks for the clarification. ^_^

    Oh I’m calm and done debating really. Like I said, it feels pointless. I have better things to do with my time.

    I’m thinking of just unfollowing this thread honestly. Sorry to stress you out hon. Thanks for the concern and de-escalation attempts. ^_^
     
  14. PirateKing_D_Luffy

    Well-Known Member
    Navigator
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2015
    Messages:
    711
    Likes Received:
    504
    Trophy Points:
    4,550
    Gender:
    Male
    I really wonder how my Nakamas type so much :)
    I need to train harder to catch up to them :datcool:
     
    Seiryu likes this.
  15. Jawahib

    Both Exotic and Professor
    First Mate
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2015
    Messages:
    1,211
    Likes Received:
    1,281
    Trophy Points:
    6,225
    Gender:
    Male
    Ah the good old days. It's been a while since we've all had a good debate (believability thread is still waiting for you madam :D). Maybe I'll go digging through some new theories/discussion threads and see if there's anything I can stir up
     
    Kia likes this.
  16. Kia

    Kia
    “Don’t try to find a reason for somebody’s love.”
    Supernova Member of the Year 2019
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2018
    Messages:
    3,082
    Likes Received:
    2,692
    Trophy Points:
    10,970
    Gender:
    Female
    I’m rewatching WCI as I only watched it once. Then I can reread (provided my social and other life allows me to do so) everything that happened up through Wano that applied lol. There’s way too many fricking details for me to only go over this stuff once. I’ve been distracted with way too many other moving parts (like watching current anime, art, and currently *gasp* dating). But damn those debates were fun! If only others enjoyed debating, the Debate Events I suggested wouldn’t have failed so spectacularly lol.
     
  17. Jawahib

    Both Exotic and Professor
    First Mate
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2015
    Messages:
    1,211
    Likes Received:
    1,281
    Trophy Points:
    6,225
    Gender:
    Male
    Bruh I'm still up to when they just made it to WCI anime-wise (I think right before the end of the Cracker fight? I don't remember seeing Tank Man in the anime, but I remember Mirror lady appearing and capturing Chopper and them.
    Honestly I didn't even mind it when it was just me and you going to town with those debates but I suppose it's gotta be quite discouraging for people to want to say something and just meet text walls :sweatsmile:
     
  18. Kia

    Kia
    “Don’t try to find a reason for somebody’s love.”
    Supernova Member of the Year 2019
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2018
    Messages:
    3,082
    Likes Received:
    2,692
    Trophy Points:
    10,970
    Gender:
    Female
    So somewhere before episode 806 but after 796. I’m on episode 876 in the rewatch. (They all end in “6”—weird.)
    Yeah I didn’t mind at all as far as a good discussion for me goes but as far as engaging more people, it didn’t really work. Most people didn’t even bother to read what we wrote because we’re so verbose.
     
  19. Seiryu

    Moderator
    Moderator
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2016
    Messages:
    3,562
    Likes Received:
    2,656
    Trophy Points:
    11,740
    So that clears up that aspect, so I'll say I can 100% agree with this...only in regards to the "cute" aspect of this response. So this goes back to my original statement that this cute response is different from the hormonal change immediately after pregnancy. I definitely didn't specialize in women's health, but there is an evolutionary hormonal response immediately after childbirth (the entire pregnancy process is a strict timeline/flow of hormonal changes and this astronomically increases both in the number of hormones and the extent/release of those hormones before, during, and after childbirth). For my work purposes, I know the homeostasis of relaxin. Either way, do we agree that a woman's body goes through astronomical hormonal changes the few days prior, during, and after childbirth?

    I don't remember the exact hormone, but based on what you are saying, the evolutionary reaction (=> thus universally present; it can be blunted by emotion/mindset but this is where I bring up the rape victims that lose all hatred for the baby upon seeing the child's face) is the same as this oxytocin response. In regards to immediately post-child birth, this is universal. This is why I am biased to think we are talking about two different hormonal responses. Relatively similar mentality of the male/female. The response I reference is evolutionarily developed and is probably present in most mammals.

    I am going to further expand on the universal aspect since I can see it coming already. It isn't like the pregnancy related hormones are produced by completely different organs. Can there be slight deviations/personal variation? Of course. However it is still present in astronomically higher than non-pregnancy levels. The homeostatic changes is what causes the cascade of hormonal changes. Taking one away would change the entire response. To say something evolutionarily developed is like saying a human or animal doesn't have a reflex. It can be consciously subdued and in some instances completely withheld, but what I am referencing goes into the genetics of probably all mammals.

    Since we are doing the microanalysis, this can be one completely separate topic.



    Speed reading through the next paragraph, I'll jump back to the original discussion then. Would you say the male response (oxytocin) is anywhere close to the female response? This is both in terms of percentage/frequency and also hormonal level changes?

    I have to think we both agree universally that mindset/emotional override is present. And both of these are exactly my point with Rayleigh. Maybe this gap stems from the Roger bias, but I will clarify that the original discussion from my perspective only revolves around the Dark King.
    This is great to hear. So now that I got some time, I have more science for you. I still have to go through my forum responsibilities, so if you don't want to take my memory, that's up to you. I know what I've studied. Is it possible to retain 100%? Of course not. I only talk about what I remember clearly. When it's not, I say so.

    Bragging about writing papers? When did that ever happen?! I SUCKED at AP Language/Literature. I'm surprised I even passed the exam! I have no idea where this is coming from, so I'll just leave it at that. However, I am curious to see your response to the above part because either we are talking about different hormonal responses or you are underestimating the astronomical difference in the concentration of hormones released during pregnancy. Again, I will reference rape victims completely loving their baby despite complete despise prior to giving birth.
    It read a certain way, and thus both of us reacted the way we did. Thankfully, it is no where near what it sounded like, and that is the most important thing.
    So much universal hate...I bring up a topic that rubs you the wrong way and now anything related to me gets the same response? Maybe I'm just weird and can compartmentalize almost anything. This is exactly why microanalysis has to be broken down to just the core and disregard all other tangents. I'm fine with going on since I can go along with the long posts and keep them separate.

    I'll say it directly to you since this ironically is a reversal of implied not reading thoroughly, but I only respond negatively to people like this after taking multiple jabs. I'll still be professional enough to reflect the decency rules we have, but by no means would I ever expect someone to just take jabs all the time from people. I'll gloss over most of them, but I got my limits.

    You may not like the way I respond, and that's fine. I'm reading that you are standing your ground for yourself and women as a whole when I am the last person in regards to women's equality and anyone who's analysis I respect. I reference the old school male mindset because THAT IS WHAT RAYLEIGH USED TO DO. His words and actions reflect this too. Just because I sound like an asshole with my blunt rushed writing style (that's probably where the AP Lang/Lit reference stems from now that I think about it), but I will universally respect people that display great analysis. Even the one person I hated something about on this forum (I hated the apparent joy of belittling someone else => it read that way and a future comment denied it but it occurred multiple times), I will still like their post if there's legit analysis. I wouldn't be surprised if Owl liked the fact that I don't give a crap about likes. I know he respected something about my character and that's why he chose me ahead of other people.

    So I'll say it again since I am reading that you glossed over the long discussion: I am more than willing to go through and break down the source of our misconceptions since we 99.99% agree on the entire topic. I will get zero stress because that's the way I am. At the same time, just because my words read a certain way doesn't mean I don't care about people. It would be nice to be liked, but I've been on forums long enough to know that changing someone's opinion. especially if it's something they care about, necessitates negative effects. Already occurred here. Also, since we are on the topic, I'll make sure I do my part to clarify the tangent aspects derailing the main discussion/discussions. I don't have the time to get lost in a circle of dancing around side tangents.
    Haha...I think I needed this. If it weren't for one other aspect I'd drop this too.
    I'm going to drag you back in, or at least get my vent post in, since you taking on responsibilities in the community means we overlap and have to be at least professionally be agreeable. I will say this quote goes both ways. I was and am trying to go back to what I thought was the main discussion (and all of the above confirms this for me => if we are discussing the Rayleigh aspect, why are we ignoring the Dark King aspect?). I can do my part to change and of course feedback always helps. I posed the same thing to Yuz. Obviously something rubbed you the wrong way. I'm MORE than open for you to quote the part that did it. The pattern I've seen (and the previous mods agreed with) is that if people don't like something and just have a negative bias, I can't do anything about it. More of the same for me. I say what I say cuz I've lived it already.

    I'm more than willing to bet we 99.99% agree on the various aspects about Rayleigh, Roger, and the physiology of why they are responding. It literally is nothing else but one person saying "6" and the other person saying "9".
     
  20. Kia

    Kia
    “Don’t try to find a reason for somebody’s love.”
    Supernova Member of the Year 2019
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2018
    Messages:
    3,082
    Likes Received:
    2,692
    Trophy Points:
    10,970
    Gender:
    Female
    It was here.
    Which, I suppose was my bad because I conflated high school and university writing courses. One requires constant citations.

    I honestly cannot repeat enough that this is referring to studies done on hormones present in both sexes POST exposure to the infants and that while the oxytocin measured is the very same hormone that is produced by the females during and after pregnancy, it did not significantly impact the reactions to infants based on their “cuteness” factors—or evolutionary traits for protectiveness and adaptation for survival.

    I appreciate you admitting not knowing the female hormones but please take that one step further and read the data provided or accept my summation of it and the other plethora of information to which I’ve been privy.


    Absolutely. That’s what I’ve been arguing and the point of the studies that I cited. The oxytocin levels ended up being the same elevated rates after contact with the infants for females and males. I’ve been saying that all along. The studies say that.


    Okay I’m going to disagree with this based on the fact that there definitely exist cases of rape victims not living their children instantly. There are studies on this as well. (Let’s not get into the mammals that eat their young for whatever reasons.) Many studies exist on aftermath of the Rwandan genocide and the relationship of the mothers to their children. Furthermore, rape is a classic cause for post-partum depression and other reasons for non infant bonding.
    Where did he do so? Please show me words and actions that support this. I’ve seen him properly respond to obnoxious kids (who has patience for unnecessary shenanigans? Discipline is an important part of proper upbringing). I’ve seen him in the present day be interested in booze, gambling and women. I’ve seen him support his captain. Where has he been actually misogynistic or antiquated?
    Has there been a presumption as to how he got this name? Couldn’t it be that he’s the Pirate King’s shadow and super strong? I mean, it’s never been spelled out, to my knowledge. I could be missing something, obviously. *shrug*

    As I’ve said, we’re both operating from places of presumption and bias, methinks. No one is without them. I’ve been talking about Rayleigh all along. I’ve been saying that holding a baby could impact him based on the fact that it’s a baby and babies have that impact, even if it wasn’t one he begat himself. He cared enough to save Camie. However harsh he was, he still was rearing Shanks and Buggy. They have fond memories of him. Children appreciate discipline.

    PS. It’s too much work to quote that section but yes, it’s correct that I got wound up and displayed conduct unbecoming in my posts. Generally, I prefer to post (and communicate in general) when I’m more calm, articulate and able to get my point across in a manner that can be received. I’ll endeavor to do better in the future. As I’ve stated previously, tone is important in what one says for ensuring that a message is heard. That being said, I’ve felt as if I was talking to myself for much of this conversation due to having to repeat the same things, over and again multiple ways as they seemed to not be registering or be seen? I’m fine with agreeing to disagree on this issue, really. I do not see some big, bad Dark King whose only possible reason for that statement could be a child of his own and I’ve given my reasons both in and out of the story but if you’ve got some further evidence to support that position, I’d love to see it. ^_^
     
    Seiryu likes this.

Share This Page