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One Piece Chapter 970: Oden Vs. Kaido

Discussion in 'Past Chapters' started by Celestial D. Dragon, Jan 31, 2020.

  1. Kia

    Kia
    “Don’t try to find a reason for somebody’s love.”
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    #61 Kia, Feb 6, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2020
    Maybe he’s saying that it was Enma’s power that fueled the attack/allowed it to do damage, even though it was a two sword style attack?
     
  2. RoronoaZoro5

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    Well, I kind of disagree. I think the spy being someone close to Oden, and now the SHs, would have major implications and could also be a good character moment for the Scabbards and maybe also the SHs. Which is why I think it would be very emotional for the spy to be a Scabbard who betrayed Oden and now also betrayed Luffy etc.

    My point with the other scabbards not getting the same introduction to Oden and Oda not showing us the full depth of the reason for why they are following Oden is that it gives Oda some leeway if he wants to make one of the Scabbards as a spy. And as I mentioned, I personally would love it if it was one of the Scabbards because of the emotional impact of it.


    It would be silly to assume that Kaido hasn't gotten stronger since he was in the Rocks pirate. I don't think Kaido was close to WB now that we know how strong WB actually is. I don't think his size has anything to do with whether or not he is awakened or not. I mean Luffy hasn't changed much since the beginning of the series. Kaido's haki can definitely get a power up in 20 years. I mean he was captured so many times and has fought so many people that he must have gotten stronger.

    How would Luffy know if he is as strong as Roger? Besides, being the strongest isn't his goal. It's a requirement for his actual goals of being Pirate King and protecting his crew. Which is why it would be okay if he wasn't as strong as Roger and WB. It's not an easy way out. He will fight all the Yonkou and he will be the strongest living character at the end of the series probably but that doesn't mean he has to be stronger than Roger and WB.
     
  3. Mo3MaR

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    Yeah the impact of the chapter was really weak.. Since Zoro came up with the counter measures to not getting tricked by Mr.2 when they met up again just from assumptions of Vivi.. She sees his father's face was along the memory of Mr. 2 and definitely copy him.. Why Mr. 2 had his face and boom Zoro the dumbest of the crew made up a strategy, although Mr. 2 realise it they had a back up plan or another mark.. While they are still newbie on the power of devil fruits.. While Oden 5yrs being a pirate and became a crew mate of Roger, they even shown the ability to him of copy copy ffruit up close and how they do it just to annoy him.. He made a counter measures yep he made yasu help him.. Then raided the place and out of nowhere his child was there? How foolish he could be.. He should made a temporary tattoo on his family or mark for counter measures.. Since his father has been copied by old hag, a very important man of Wano... Why should his families not? After 5 yrs of experiencing pain and agony from that ability cos he can't take the seat of Shogun anymore.. And after that he got distracted again vs Zoro a newbie pirate and just few hours meeting the enemies made a 2 plans and he just made 1 .. Really after that so much suffering they gave? Really!? Hahaha
     
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  4. Kia

    Kia
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    #64 Kia, Feb 6, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2020
    You guys are missing the point of he doesn’t know exactly how the fruit works. He didn’t see the old lady touch a face to learn to copy it. He’s not sure what countermeasures would work against it. Does it copy what she sees? Is it like the quirks from BnHA that make either duplicates or allow the person to transform? There are plenty of variables and variations. Seeing a single transformation in the heat of the moment is insufficient information even if you are familiar with devil fruits. You can set up a code word and hope it doesn’t get tortured out of anyone, that’s about it. Still won’t stop the instinctive hesitation that maybe something failed.

    How could he have researched the abilities of the fruit? It’s not like he was confiding in his comrades, he was working to keep everyone out of it. Was it the best plan? Perhaps not but he was trying to either preserve lives or obtain a sense of just where/how Orochi was using the hag or both. Bon Clay was a special case who showed off his skills and actually played with them so they learned everything they needed to know up front in order to take precautions. Orochi only revealed a little bit as a teaser, to taunt him with his helplessness, not the hows because he knew he was dealing with an enemy.

    Being familiar with one devil fruit doesn’t automatically mean you understand the mechanism of another. They are all different. They don’t work the same way. That’s just how this universe works. Understanding Whitebeard’s fruit or Marco’s will do jack sh*t to help you in this case.
     
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  5. Mo3MaR

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    Well at least he learn the ability that it could trick everyone.. Lol.. Even if he doesn't know the full capabilities of the mane mane fruit.. Well 5 yrs.. 5 yrs man after he sees that and he still didn't consider the worst possible scenario.. You don't get it., the time length to consider the danger between Zoro and Oden has big difference.. Oden holds more responsibility than Zoro.. On every aspect Oden got the bigger advantage of not being tricked by the same ability.. afterall he carried the burden of life, his country and their trust.. While Zoro they just want to help their friend Vivi and they did manage a good thing to not get tricked.. Are you saying Zoro got more advantage of knowing the troops without any burden like Oden? Hahaha that's funny a reasoning you got there.. In experience on the sea Oden have more adventures than the SH pirates too..
     
  6. Mo3MaR

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    Also read or watch again the episode where sanji fought Mr. 2 .. just from observation he manage to counter his trick to not fallen again when mr2 change to Nami
     
  7. Yosnob D

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    Funny but i really forgot that we are in act 3, which means fast-paced events & a great drama/tragedy. ;P

    So basically the dissatisfaction's for this chapter was part of the plan/play, how Oden being tricked twice by the fruit,dancing or being idiot lord for 5 years just for a ship, easily cut/damage kaido, fast happenings, etc.

    You're truly amazing Oda, i never expect that the "tragedy/drama" thing was not only in the manga content but it also coincides to the feelings/views of your fans for this arc.


    Oda: You know the concept of Kabuki?
    Fan: Yes! just a jo-ha-kyu right?
    Oda:
    :closeenough:
     
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  8. Seiryu

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    I will 100% agree that Kaidou is extremely underrated for his brains. Of course anyone is a genius compared to Luffy, but Kaidou is definitely not the dumb meathead being implied by his demeanor/appearance.
    Big Mom is still the best tactician of the series thus far. Kaidou is being implied to be quite close. With SMILE being present from 20ish years ago, Kaidou had his master plan already taking root from this time. He'd be Pirate King if he had Vegapunk working on SMILE rather than Caesar.

    Based on this, I have to think they both have plans to kill the other once the alliance succeeds.
    Going to focus on this part, but I'll do the usual aspect of saying I have nothing to disagree with anything from the post. It seems like most fans are having an issue with Oda taking the easy way out. This is completely anti-climactic compared to the hype of the cliffhanger in 969. Maybe the anime does it justice, but the manga implies Oden is not worthy of being a "member of the Pirate King's crew".

    The problem is that even with Oden being a freak of nature, he is still WAY below Whitebeard. He himself acknowledges this (the panel of Whitebeard's "power" when Oden goes through all the different things in the world that shocks him). Per the contradictions by Oda, Kaidou is already close to Whitebeard in terms of combat capability. This is prime Whitebeard too.

    Oden should not be even with Kaidou. Oden going out and legitimately wounding Kaidou would fulfill the wishes of the Wano Kuni residents of Oden going out with a "warrior spirit" (vs. being submissive and dancing nude all those years). All the breadcrumbs point in one direction, but Oda decided to take an easier and shorter way out. The quality of the product is lower. Justifying this is the opposite of what any fan should be doing. Unless lower quality is desired.
    @Monkey D. Ruffy This is probably the majority of the context on why Kaidou is the strongest being alive now. However, we have clear power levels being implied of Whitebeard only being slightly over Kaidou, but both of them being >>> over Oden. Oden fighting equally with Kaidou is the contradiction. The legendary hour being unexciting action is the contradiction. All context implies a successful uphill battle by Oden. He was supposed to go out in a blaze of glory.

    Even the cheap trick is contradictory. Kaidou scoffs/belittles Orochi's ways of doing things. All of the breadcrumbs are there and this is why One Piece was literary mastery. Even if people didn't connect it, having the revelation fit so well because it literally is the only option while seemingly still wide open.

    Same thing per the above part of this post: The quality of the product is lower. Justifying this is the opposite of what any fan should be doing. Unless lower quality is desired. In no other chapter has Oda ever had this much contradiction. This is the worst chapter in his entire career and it isn't even close. This is astronomically worse than WCI B.S. And if fans don't make a big deal out of it, it's going to continue. Oda seems to care the most about ending the series quickly more than anything else.
    Then shouldn't it have a more profound name? Oda has always used puns/double entendre for significant attacks. Gotta wait for the raw for sure, but none implied from the romaji.
    Oh, for sure. It would definitely be a huge twist if it was one of them. If Oda is to stick with his previous mannerisms/writing style, the morals and loyalty would be universal. Morals are still the underlying factor that drives the plot in all instances. With Oda contradicting all the Kaidou stuff, anything is possible now. It will come at a cost of contradicting a previous breadcrumb though. And this is why I make a big deal since we are going to suffer as fans.
    K, let's break down the major factors to a person's power level/combat capabilities: physical capabilities, fruit abilities, haki (foundational/basic), awakenings, and haki mastery (there's the mental side with tactics/experience but that's harder to quantify). Kaidou is the same size => he has his awakened zoan already. He's already close to his peak/max physical capabilities. Same goes for fruit ability/awakening. Context implies he already has basic haki. Context also implies he has haki mastery. The only thing that is likely to be there before ROCKS and the current time is haki mastery. We do not disagree that Kaidou now is >>> above Kaidou 20ish years ago.

    The problem Oda created is that Luffy is WAY behind in many of these areas. It is still a HUGE problem without haki mastery. And thus, Oda is taking the easy way out by weakening Kaidou. All of the context implies Kaidou is much stronger than Oden. Luffy cannot win if Kaidou and Big Mom use haki mastery. Luffy needs multiple arcs to train to get all of these (mastery of haki basics, getting an awakening, and then getting haki mastery).

    Why are Whitebeard, Kaidou, Big Mom, and Shiki all equals as ROCKS execs? Why are they equal rivals in the New World? Sure there is slight advantages with Whitebeard having the biggest territory and crew, but if Whitebeard is >>> anyone else, he easily defeats them all and establishes peace throughout the entire New World. Whitebeard wanted peace for his "family". He wanted this for as many people in the New World. His inability to unite the entire New World is the breadcrumbs that they are all equal as "Yonkou". There are slight differences, but they are all still in a different dimension from all other fighters. Oden acknowledges him being <<< Whitebeard. I can copy-paste as needed since it's higher up in this post.

    "Boring adventure". Luffy doesn't want the easy way out. Luffy not getting to Roger's level is a contradiction of what makes Luffy.
    This is irrelevant. He knows the term "ability users". Even in the beginning of the Grand Line, everyone learns to expect the unexpected. The "noobie" pirate Zoro adapts to this in the beginning of the series. Oda is contradicting the basic knowledge of preparing for the magic of fruit abilities. Seeing a person transform into his father and Oden realizing what happened to his father should be more than enough to realize, "hey, the enemy can turn into potentially anyone". Even how Oden responds to the Bari-Bari is contradictory (to go along with Oda's cop out). Prepare for the unexpected, and play it defensive.

    It is quite ironic that Zoro (who is still far from being the strongest swordsman) figured this out hundreds of chapters ago. Same thing per the above: we are all going to suffer as fans if we accept the B.S. This chapter is by far the worst chapter in the entire series. It is astronomically worse than WCI B.S. and if this current contradiction follows through, I'm dropping the series. All the breadcrumbs are already in place and going in a different direction is going to only unravel the perfection more and more.
    This part is not being discussed, so maybe I'll start a separate thread.
    And this is potentially only the tip of the iceberg if he wants to further deviate from all the existing breadcrumbs...maybe I'm weird. Why would a fan purposefully want a lower quality product?
     
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  9. RoronoaZoro5

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    Has it ever been mentioned that once you awaken a fruit, your physical appearance changes?

    They were not equals under ROCKS. Nowhere has it been mentioned that WB, Kaido and BM were equals. Is Katakuri equal to Cracker? No. There is always a hierarchy, even among the commanders. So it is safe to assume that WB was stronger than Kaido back then because that was WBs peak, where he was known as the strongest person alive. I'm not saying WB could easily defeat Kaido back then, but he could beat Kaido for sure. Of course Oden was weaker than WB but Kaido was also weaker than WB. WB was the strongest person alive for a reason. Meaning that Kaido and Oden were a lot closer in strength.

    As I mentioned before, there is always a hierarchy when it comes to strength. So someone is bound to be weaker than someone else. The only equal WB ever had was Roger. Kaido has never been mentioned in the same breath as WB and Roger. There is a reason for this.

    As for how Luffy defeats Kaido, I'm not sure personally but I trust Oda to deliver. He hasn't really let me down so far so I have no reason to doubt him. Luffy's fights are usually against opponents where he would lose 99/100 times but there is always that one time where he wins.
     
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  10. Monkey D. Ruffy

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    It was never said that WB and roger were equals. It was said and shown that WB once matched him in a fight. Garp and Roger were equals, as they often fought each other nearly to death. But neither ever won. As for Oden, I personally don’t put him at the level of Roger, Garp, Sengoku and WB. But at Rayleigh’s level. Which in my opinion at his prime was Yonkou level. When Rayleigh fought Kizaru(an admiral) he said “I can’t help them, because I’m not as strong as I used to be”. Implying at his prime he could have defeated an admiral very fast and helped the straw hats against a Shichibukai.
     
  11. Raymond Reddington

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    If Oda planed this chapter since Kaido’s interdiction (based on the fact that Kaido had his scar since the beginning) then he fore sure overhyped Kaido.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    In chapter 975 Oda used 4 pages of none stop hype and all the information that we’ve got is from the narrator (not from a character in the story that can be simply wrong or just telling us the rumors) but no Oda intentionally used the narrator to make it more impactful, on top of that the things that narrator said were so crazy that the narrator simply repeated it two times so that the reader would believe in it, and even on top of that Oda also gave us a physical example of why Kaido is so strong by jumping from sky island and have no damage, not even a scratch.

    Let me ask you this… would Oden survive after jumping from sky island? Would Oden survive after being hanged? Would Oden survive under the guillotine? Would Oden survive after being stabbed by spears? Or would Kaido die after being boiled alive?


    What I’m trying to say is that no matter how you look at it the hype that Oden has been given in Wano arc is nothing even remotely close the hype that has been given to Kaido in chapter 795, to make things even worse I just wanna remind you that even some of the fodders in impel down didn’t die from being boiled alive.
    [​IMG]
    There were no reason to hype up Kaido this much if he had chapter 970 in his mined since Kaido’s interdiction, because what eventually will happened is that there will be more and more plot holes, unlogical things, plot conveniences in future, it fills like Oda decided to make Oden that much strong in lost minute while forgetting about the hype that he has given to Kaido.
    What Oda is eventually doing is that he tries to make Kaido weaker then he was originally thought to be so that his defeat would make sense, but he still need to explain the hype of Kaido and I don’t think he can do that.




     
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  12. TonzChopper

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    My prediction would be Oden purposedly lured Kaido into believing that he's being tricked, lost a duel and boiled alive. I mean, if it wasn't the case, then everything that happened in this flashback doesn't make any sense. Oden is alive and this is part of his plan because he knew he couldn't defeat Kaido.. so much like Roger's speech "We were too early.." Oden, too, was too early to defeat Kaido. Lady Toki sent Kaido into the future... where the scabbards are fighting Kaido.. with the Straw Hats...

    Being fooled twice. A member of the Roger pirates... being fooled twice and suffer for 5 yrs, only to be defeated by a mace that has been 1hitting everyone. Wtf?
     
  13. Seiryu

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    Stated, no. Implied with all of the zoan awakeninings, yes. Only one I haven't checked is Drake. With his updated design, he looks like an oversized human now, which would be the giveaway that he gained his awakening while under Kaidou.
    The 4 mentioned are pictured to be the execs of the crew multiple times: the introduction of ROCKS and the fight against Roger/Garp. Of course there is differences between tiers of fighters. However, most of this has to do with style match-ups more than anything else.

    Katakuri, Luffy, Cracker, etc. are all still in the tier just below Yonkou/admirals. They easily defeat anyone out of their tier. The same thing is being implied for Whitebeard, Kaidou, Big Mom, and Shiki (to a certain extent). All of them create a new tier above Yonkou execs but still below Yonkou/admiral in that they have extremely high or maxed out stats for the majority of combat capabilities. Contextually, the only introduced variable missing is haki mastery. Experience would naturally increase, but this isn't that much of a variable (Luffy makes up for it completely with his natural born fighting instincts).
    Then how does Whitebeard not take over the entire New World? The balance of power/territory directly implies that the Yonkou are roughly equals (the entire context of Yonkou status implies they are in the same tier). If there is such a huge gap that Roger/Garp/Whitebeard are in the elite of the elite of the elite and Kaidou/Big Mom/current admirals/Shanks are tier two, Luffy/Yonkou execs/etc. are tier three, then this contradicts Whitebeard not unifying the entire New World (maybe he could even expand to some or most of the Grand Line). Big Mom should have had at least one defeat. Kaidou should have exponentially more than his 19+ defeats.

    Just because there are slight differences within the same tier does not mean they cannot fight against each other. This is exactly why the fights take about a week. They are equal if they go all out (confirmation that Whitebeard and Roger did not go all out) and it takes fatigue to determine the winner. Of course it's complex with the number of characters. The entire series is based on Luffy working his way to higher tiers. Nothing implies Roger/Garp/Whitebeard being in their own tier from what I'm reading. Moreover, Luffy's personality is such that he wouldn't feel justified if he did not exceed Roger. It's not a coincidence that his grandfather is among the highest of all time in combat capabilities. Luffy's always wanted to exceed Garp (more for his own freedom/play time), but more perfect breadcrumbs by Oda.
    Would you still have this feeling if Oda said so himself (and multiple times) that he was not sure how to make it rationale for Luffy to win against Kaidou. This is with multiple power-ups and additional help from a different powerhouse not in the arc. The huge gap cannot be easily explained and this is probably exactly why Oda is weakening Kaidou and contradicting the previous equal tier of Yonkou/admirals. The recent contradiction implies the different tier, but the entire rest of the series shows what the real contradiction is.

    Probably not a coincidence we have the first non-emergency cancellation of a chapter. Other than planned breaks, Oda only missed a little bit of time with his hospitalization. Thankfully, this means someone with enough power or respect from Oda got him to make some revisions to the B.S. changes he was going through with.
    I feel your pain...This unplanned break is hopefully a good sign for fans. Someone is forcing Oda to make changes to the B.S. What's done is done. Oda's too cocky (he calls his one shots "masterpieces" when he's still just a trainee), so I don't think he goes back and says "ignore chapter 970, this is what was supposed to happen". We'll probably be stuck with a partial correction, but better than no correction for sure.
    Contradictions all over the place. You're 100% right that Oden has already shown to be more capable than what happened. At the same time, Luffy himself is the evidence that the gap between Yonkou/admiral level and everyone else is astronomical.

    Oda's also contradicting the natural defense (and defensive busoushoku too) of Kaidou's scales.

    The only silver lining is that this only highlights how masterful Oda did for 23ish years of the manga. No one could misinterpret the plot since every breadcrumb perfectly fit together. With the plot 80% complete, it is impossible to not contradict something already established if he deviates from what the original plot was planned to be. Only going to get worse if Oda keeps up what he's doing.
     
  14. Celestial D. Dragon

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    I mean, for all Oden knew, one of Kaido's henchman went and kidnapped his son and brought him there. He's in the middle of an intense battle that has lasted days. The last thing on his mind is to flashback to 5 years ago, to think about someone who can take on the appearance of others. Not to mention, he didn't know that Higurashi could actually turn herself into a child.
     
  15. Galkie

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    Time to read some manga after a tough week..
    Heard some great things about this chapter.
     
  16. Seiryu

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    Please do share. I mean this 100% seriously (no sarcasm or anything). I'm kinda in the dumps since I've grown used to holding Oda to the extreme standards he himself stated over the first 22 years of the manga. So all I see are the contradictions and disappointment. At this point, I'd take anything indicating Oda didn't just permanently mess up the rest of the series (which happens if he is suddenly weakening all Yonkou/admirals which in turn means weakening of "end of story" protagonists too).
     
  17. Kreydens

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    Maybe Kaido is just not a very good fighter, and thus he loses his fights, but he is super tough and regenerates very quickly and always outlasts his opponents.
     
  18. Celestial D. Dragon

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    #78 Celestial D. Dragon, Feb 15, 2020 at 10:20 AM
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2020 at 10:28 AM
    We were just told a handful of chapters ago that both Kaido and Big Mom are much more powerful now, then they were back during Rogers era... Kaido himself was considered a rookie back during Rock's time as well.

    And despite that, Kaido fought Oden in his dragon form, for the majority of the fight. Even Luffy was able to land a bunch of attacks on Kaido when he was in that form. Even if Oden was distracted during that fight, the second Kaido took on his human form, it was a one shot. Do you think a distracted Roger, Whitebeard, Shanks, or Big Mom is getting one shotted by Kaido?

    Also bare in mind, that Oden survived an attack from Roger (albeit, he blocked it), just a few years prior, yet here he is getting taken out in one clean hit from Kaido.
     

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