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The Truth Behind Devil Fruits and SMILEs and The Reason Why Blackbeard Can Use Two Abilities.

Discussion in 'One Piece Theories' started by Yuuzume, Mar 14, 2018.

  1. Seiryu

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    Going to jump into the haki discussion since I can just copy-paste something on the haki force-field/offensive/defensive busoushoku: I do like this idea of "harmonized" haki. Ultimately, the damage/attack potential (same for defensive potential) is a combination of the level of haki present and the normal physics (density of the object and force behind the attack). Haki simply exaggerates the normal physics with the magic of touching logia. So for the pain aspects, Luffy is either not putting enough force behind his attack or holding back how much haki he puts into it. For example, when novices first learn to break pieces of wood for karate/taekwondo, it is going to hurt because they don't have enough bone density and or they hesitate and minimize their strike (the faster it breaks the lower the time of force applied to the person's body; the opposite reaction from the wood does not change, but the time of that force can exponentially be decreased).

    The only example of "mastered busoushoku" that has been shown so far is Sentoumaru and Rayleigh being able to "repel" an attack. Just like judo and some karate techniques, the opponent's momentum is used for offense (taking a defensive technique and immediately making it offensive).

    Edit: I do not consider the admirals creating an external force field a legitimate example (Oda still only having a rough idea of haki at the time). The Sentoumaru/Rayleigh example is probably a defensive counter technique. Completely different mechanics, although similar visually, to the admirals blocking the frozen mast pieces (which they did not have to do since they are all logia...don't think anything important was below/behind them either).

    As for haki, I think it is important to re-emphasize the martial arts basis. It takes physical energy to move (busoushoku), but takes essentially no energy to be observant (kenbunshoku). Fujitora is the perfect example of kenbunshoku always being "on". However, kenbunshoku should take minimal "haki energy" because it is simply being observant. "Sensing someone's presence" is a common term used in manga, but it comes down to the real life sounds and environmental changes.

    I wouldn't bother focusing too much on the Summit War examples because Oda did not have a concrete idea of how he wanted to show haki.

    I do think haki is much more common in the New World than it is being shown. I can't say for sure, but my gut says Oda was forced into the blackening effect to make it clearer for readers to understand. With the latest chapter, I like Oda being able to go back to not drawing the blackening since the blackening takes away from the scene/panel's aesthetics.
     
  2. Kia

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    Okay to clarify my Haki position. I still think that it can be enjoyed as if everything was fine so long as you take the position that Ace didn’t actually master Haki between his fight with Admiral Draw and Smoker/Marineford.

    Haoshoku Haki was implemented with Shanks at the beginning in a way that was consistently shown by having Luffy use it that way to tame a beast at Fishman Island.

    Changing to displaying armament Haki doesn’t invalidate earlier Haki, it just clarifies it.

    However, I’m fully capable of understanding the opposing side. That’s generally all I want from the conclusion of a discussion is comprehension. If we learn at some point that Ace actually had mastered armament and didn’t use it, I’ll revise my stance.

    What about the Hancock sister’s use of that technique?
    upload_2018-10-23_15-53-47.jpeg
    It’s here but it was included in the scene when Rayleigh described Haki and the others were shown. Does that one not count to you?

    I hear what you’re saying but I’d argue that it takes a great deal of energy to search the ether for cues to the future. Or to search beyond your immediate surroundings through walls, etc to sense the ki/chakra of other beings and be able to discern what type they are, etc. Any kind of energy attunement or work like that is taxing. Being able to do so while also being cognizant of your surroundings is a phenomenal feat. It’s different than focusing during a fight (which I know still requires extensive training for the type of which you speak) or adding to other heightened senses to compensate for a missing one (though that’s still a feat, it’s one necessary for survival and aided by adaptations caused by that necessity).

    So what you’re suggesting is that this fight
    upload_2018-10-23_16-5-11.png
    is supposed to have armament Haki? Being used by whom, may I ask? Because if Jack is using it, according to Mihawk, his blade wouldn’t break. I’m pretty sure that there’s things other than Haki that cause shock waves, like just force. Then again, I can’t read the sound effects and I didn’t read the Japanese. But his blades look exactly the same as they did on Zou.

    upload_2018-10-23_16-15-28.jpeg
    I’m confuzzled. Please help. I mean if he was going to use Haki, would he have used it there as well?
    Here’s where he actually heads in to fight or is fighting.
    upload_2018-10-23_16-18-13.jpeg
    Same thing, not blacked, just his whole silhouette in shadows. I mean if the Jack fight wasn’t even to what you were referring in chapter 921, I’m super lost but can you please help clarify for me? Okay mahalo.
     

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  3. Seiryu

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    Essentially that's the first half of the real life technique I mentioned with Sentoumaru/Rayleigh. In almost any martial art, they have some version of parrying an opponent attack. Judo is the best example of fully maximizing this from a defensive parry (the gorgon sister) to a combined parry and attack (Sentoumaru/Rayleigh). The easiest real world example would be someone throwing a punch/kick and a judo throw using their momentum to slam them into the ground. A common gag example is when an anime fighter simply trips their opponent (parry the attack and create a fulcrum to use the momentum as an attack).

    The mastery allows for greater flexibility, adaptability, and the biggest aspect is a simple defensive parry vs. potentially critical counter (the greater the leverage the greater the counter). Judo was designed to slam fully armored samurai on their head, instantly killing/paralyzing them. Kinda ironic since the kanji for Judo is read "way of peace". The peace is made by killing all that oppose the user.
    I would disagree. Mantra is essentially a constant feed of the superhuman input (same goes for Fujitora since he has complete vision of an admiral level fighter with no eyesight). There is no "searching". The mastery is what makes it natural. Anyone that masters a skill does it completely unconsciously (this is the biggest thing I need to emphasize). This applies to any field of work or any "skill" in the real world (video games or random skills people work on for social media). For Enel and Aisa, they had a constant feed of superhuman sensory information. Aisa clearly has no physical capabilities, yet she never got tired other than when she had to run for her life or run someplace (back to the village).
    Jack, Inuarashi, and Nekomamushi are all going to have haki. Haki is a necessity to reach a certain level of physical combat capabilities (this is where the weaklings of Luffy's crew likely never get haki, but master their "style" of fighting to still be relatively close to admiral level after Vegapunk helps power them up, plus all the usual in fight power-ups from arc to arc). Oda's style is such that haki is going to be the norm, just like fruit abilities are the norm for people of power. This is going to be confirmed as the databooks come out. Anyone at a significant level of fighting has to have haki.

    The blade breaking goes back to the original part of basic physics plus haki. Shuutenmaru was too strong and possibly too fast. Jack may have only had the time to add busoushoku to his torso (the reason why it is a pretty shallow wound). The untarnished blade only applies to a master that exceeds the offensive busoushoku of all of their opponents (for now, only Mihawk and Shanks would be the legitimate candidates in my mind).
     
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  4. Kia

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    Okay. Interesting. I’ll ruminate on that.

    And we’re back to the biggest concern that I have with your argument. Youvevstated that you want to dismiss pre timeskip Haki because it was inconsistent in its implementation and if I’m not incorrect, you specifically hated on mantra as being a huge problem. Yet you’re citing it here. So is the problem only that you don’t like the implications of how far reaching/powerful it is?

    Anyways, since I’ve stated that I accept the story as presented, I’ll move on. Aisa is a prodigy because she seems to have been born with the ability. Those who are born empathic are ridiculously sensitive and suffer immensely. They have to try and find ways to shield themselves from the world in order to remain functional. She wasn’t that functional when people started dying.
    upload_2018-10-23_17-47-13.jpeg
    It wasn’t until there weren’t many people left suffering in her general area (the island) that she got better, if I recall correctly. It seems that her range isn’t as large as Enel’s most likely. The other mantra users (the priests, it doesn’t say what their range is or if it’s on all the time). Perhaps I’m making the same mistake that I often accuse you of here by applying real world rules to the manga world.

    I do understand that fully mastering something means that it becomes second nature but that doesn’t mean that it’s free of cost. Energy is neither created nor lost. Even in the world of One Piece, I’d wager. So there’s still some cost to utilizing skills even if it’s not as high as it is as a novice.

    If you’re saying that then you’re saying he didn’t draw the Haki back at Zou either. That doesn’t make sense because he clearly showed Usopp get his Haki.
    upload_2018-10-23_18-2-46.jpeg
    And that was earlier at Dressrosa. He also showed Zoro use Haki in Dressrosa and it still allowed us to see white details on the blades.
    32DC23DD-05C1-4FFE-BF1A-837B1850B0DE.jpeg

    Okay so the contention now is there’s only Haki for the second strike where the shockwave occurs? I might be getting more lost... are you doing one of my numbers where you just give more options? ^_^
     
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  5. Yuuzume

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    While I agree that attack potential is a combination of haki and the physics involved,let me remind you that the physics involved in the One Piece world isn't quite the same as normal physics and can be considered plenty magical by itself,considering that people i the One Piece world could cut steel and break boulders prior to haki's introduction.

    Haki has be introduced to either boost the destructive capabilities of attacks or act as armor for defense,it hasn't been suggested that it utilizes the force behind their opponent's strike.Haki has been shown to be a force by itself,and the prevailing one much of the time,and any damage done by it can attributed to the haki used itself and not the force behind the opponent's attack.Compared to Judo,which can utilize the opponents force and momentum to add to one's own attacking capabilities,any such capabilities in the case haki of haki,stem from the haki itself.

    I actually quite agree with the concept of muscle memory and that the idea that mastery of any kind of skill minimizes the time needed for one to make use of it.However,your point of view seems to make them out to have much bigger proportions than my own point of view does.You describe them as something overly convenient that seems to be akin to an "auto mode" of sorts and something extremely common,that undermines the value of said mastery.While mastery minimizes the time needed to activate/apply a skill and makes it seem more mechanical than when a novice does it,it still doesn't mean that the activation of said skill is completely mechanical and doesn't require the attention and focus of the user.Furthermore,you seem to view the feed of information that kenbunshoku haki provides as simply an extra feed other than the ones stemming from one's other senses.However,a kenbunshoku haki user can tap into that information feed only after the activation of kenbunshoku haki,hence why it's not the same as the feeds stemming from the other senses.In order to treat it as such,the user would have to be constantly using kenbunshoku haki,something that would not logically be possible.You mention Aisha as an example,and maybe even Otohime,but those two are cases where kenbunshoku haki came so natural to them that they had awakened it from the moment of their birth.That doesn't of course mean that they can constantly use it.If someone doesn't know how to use haki,then the activation of it seems to be dependent of the user's aptitude to it and the user's state of emotions.In conclusion,the same way that Luffy activates haoshoku without knowing,Aisha,Otohime and Coby activated kenbunshoku without realizing it since it came more naturally to them than it did to others.Aisha,Otohime and Coby are simply rare case who have awakened haki but have not learned how to use it.People normally need to train to awaken haki,so they also train to use it after they awaken it.So people like those three,who have awakened it but haven't learned how to control it,activate it based on their state of emotions sometimes.In the end,kenbunshoku haki may seem like simply an extra sense.but compared to the others,it needs to use up haki from one's haki reserves and be activated to provide the feed of information that it's supposed to.Even if you say that a little haki is necessary for that,nothing of the sort has been stated or suggested.The only thing we know is that using haki depletes one's haki reserves,so I don't think it's illogical to think that using kenbunshoku would have the same effect,hence why it can't be left "on" constantly.

    Apparently,haki isn't as common as that though.As I've said before,Diamante and Trebol are people who are at the significant level which you mention and still didn't have haki.So even if someone is unable to obtain haki,they can still take the rest of their skills to a significant enough level.

    Whether or not haki was used in this case is something I won't give an opinion about,but let me say that we're at a point of the series that we look for darkening to tell whether busoshoku haki has been used or not.As a matter of fact,you yourself were considering a previous similar instance (Cracker's defense) to be either a translation mistake or an error on Oda's part because there was no darkening at the time.I'm not saying that haki wasn't used because,as you say,this chapter might have simply been the first one since Oda decided to not apply the darkening effect anymore,but it's also true that it's too early to say that haki was used and not shown because the darkening effect may still be in play.And in the case that the darkening effect is still in play,an explanation for Jack getting cut would be that Shutenmaru was simply too fast and took advantage of Jack's possible unpreparedness and managed to land a hit.
     
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  6. Seiryu

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    #206 Seiryu, Oct 27, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2018
    The pattern appears that Oda only draws haki's blackening for busoushoku when someone fights seriously. All of the above powerhouses will have it. Just like fruit abilities are essentially a necessity, haki is going to be the exact same thing. There can be exceptions, but most people will have it. Thankfully, we'll get an answer pretty soon since Oda is jumping straight into the first of at least two fights against Kaidou.

    Oda is implying kenbunshoku with people's reactions prior to an attack. We've already seen Luffy, Vergo, etc. show how as soon as the conscious thought occurs, the defensive busoushoku activates. Even Kaidou's scene does not match this. However, we know Kaidou has haki 100% (and I'd bet all 3 forms to at least some extent, if not close to mastered levels for all; he wouldn't be the strongest in the world if he doesn't have at least decent kenbunshoku since it is such a huge tactical advantage). Oda can explain away that Kaidou is truly underestimating Luffy in all aspects, but it is purely for dramatic effect. It contradicts everything else we know about Kaidou, but it is exciting for all the fans (myself included).
    Based on the mechanics, Jack probably only has his defensive busoushoku on his torso. Nothing on the sword. This is why Shuutenmaru should be able to easily cut the sword and land the shallow blow (not going to expand on the trunk physiology since you have the background).

    If they are fighting seriously (which they may not be), they are both strong enough that having busoushoku should be instinctual. I don't think about the angle of my feet to throw a strike, or when I'm in the middle of trying to parry a strike thrown at me (the mastery of busoushoku aspect). Jack should have the "kenbunshoku" to see he's gonna take a shot (anyone with eyes would see that "holy crap he's moving too fast for me to block", which is exactly why the arm is only cocked-back to throw any counter/defensive block).

    So typing this out, the contention points are where Oda is oversimplifying things for the sake of a cliffhanger or dramatic point. If it were a real fight (which will happen for all of these people eventually), that is where we get the long and drawn out chess matches where haki makes it a stalemate until someone forces a mistake by the other.

    The Zoro example I'm surprised I overlooked. No one else has the aesthetic details remain so far that I can think of. I still don't like the blackening effect aesthetically though.
    But at the same time, Asian cultures as a whole have martial arts knowledge to be a part of the mainstream. There is a reason why ki, chi, haki, chakra, nen, etc. all have the same principles. The foundation is possible in real life. What is seen as phenomenon in other cultures is accepted as truth and not even questioned.

    There is a specific branch of karate that focuses on finger strikes. The basic training is full-force finger striking (essentially punching full force with a clawed hand) a boulder. The manga magic may exaggerate it, but cleanly breaking a boulder is not physically impossible in the real world. The master mason I've seen has passed about a decade ago, but I've seen him literally lightly tap a 70-80 pound boulder 5-6x to have a completely clean break. Until diamond cutters, modern technology could not replicate the extent of how smooth the cut was. The same guy could literally create a 3D picture of putting these cut pieces together so that a perfectly symmetrical stone wall would free-stand without any concrete (he would use minimal concrete to hold it and stop people from taking it apart).

    This sort of mastery seems like magic even to me, but there is definitely technique and science to it (science that I do not have enough physics to rationalize). It is definitely a lost art. Hitsatsu-waza ("sure kill techniques") are similarly lost from newer generations loosing interest.
    I would respectfully say you haven't truly mastered anything yet. Even in high school, I was technically at a "professional" level in that I had enough experience that I could sight read a majority of the music we played (see it for the first time and get most if not all of it correct). I played a bass instrument, so the crazy fast notes were relatively uncommon. That naturally makes it much easier, but I could still play common 16th note progressions just based off of the mastery of my finger fine motor control.

    Mastery is when something is unconscious. Kobe Bryant just was promoting his basketball book. His mastery of basketball is why he can analyze a players technique from a still picture. Seeing their footwork lets him know how they set up a juke/crossover. Footwork is critical for martial arts for the same reason: you can't move if you're off balance.
    The same was for Ace/Blackbeard. Just like the above, Oda is probably going to do revisionist history with the upcoming databooks. Every character has a section on haki. Naturally all the East Blue residents don't have it. I'd be willing to bet every powerhouse has at least one of the two major categories. I don't blame Oda though, I completely agree that it just looks better without it. From a fighting/martial arts standpoint, they have to have it because they physically are not at that level without it. This physical energy is the basis of martial arts. It is magic to any American/European culture, but it accepted as fact from the Japanese perspective. That's something I don't think I mentioned before.
    Prior to these recent conversations I had full faith in Oda. He is obviously highly inconsistent with haki as a whole. He at best only had a rough outline in his 5 year plan. He was likely forced into the blackening. He only is consistent about the blackening for the protagonists and or the climax fights of each arc.

    Ultimately, either the databooks and or the upcoming climax fights (really close if Luffy has his first defeat in a week or two to Kaidou) both will confirm the haki = foundation of high level martial arts. It came up before, but they are one in the same (I think the most recent example was Zoro's "instincts"). They are the exact same thing from a martial arts perspective. Just at a different level.

    Edit: gonna beat the dead horse, but just copy paste from the Vegapunk/inanimate fruit user discussion:
    That's the "manga magic" of it. Steel and inanimate objects do not have DNA, but something that was physically impossible 15-20 years ago was already being done 13ish years ago (first major thing I know of was in Hawaii with UH professors making the glow in the dark mice by transplanting a gene from deep sea jellyfish into mice).

    Just like our other discussions, there is a real life basis that is extremely close. Oda just takes it one extra step that is physically impossible in the real world. If you don't have the genetics or martial arts background, even the real life example is supernatural.
     
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  7. Yuuzume

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    To address this first,if you're suggesting that there is force similar to haki/chi/ki/etc in real life,then I personally don't quite agree with that.I don't know if you have seen an application of it but I have not,so I'm inclined to disagree as far as that goes.But to get back to the relevant discussion,you're apparently suggesting that every seemingly supernatural aspect of One Piece is based off real life examples.Putting aside the mechanics of the real life examples,I'm not adverse to that suggestion,but I don't see how it goes against what I said either.Whether or not the supernatural aspects of One Piece stem from real life examples or not,their proportions are enlarged to the point that they still seem supernatural enough to not be judged with standards that are completely equal to the ones that apply to the real life examples.We saw Luffy punch through the ground at Alabasta,swordsmen throwing flying slash attacks left and right and haki apparently allowed Zoro to cut an enormous Pika in half.

    Considering the way you describe those examples of mastery,I don't know why you view it as something so magically convenient.You suggest that it's something that will be triggered regardless of anything that happens to any aspect surrounding it,yet I don't think that's the case.Let's take your basketball example into consideration.Do you think that a basketball player who possesses high enough levels of mastery that they can predict their opponent's next move based on their footwork,would be able to actually do it if they were looking at the audience instead of their opponent? Any reaction requires a certain level of focus and feedback from the relevant senses.Do you think a martial artist who could no longer see or hear would be able to sense an opponent's attack? Higher levels of mastery shave off the amount of focus needed and even the reaction time,but the need for focus doesn't become non existent. If something occurs,that draws 100-120 per cent of one's attention and focus,it leaves them unable to react as they have no focus to spare and the feed they get from their relevant senses is limited to the object/person/situation that drew their attention.And the feed form kenbunshoku haki isn't even like the ones from the normal senses,as kenbunshoku haki needs to be activate first.If you want an example from One Piece,it would be the mochi house that Katakuri made to eat his donuts being destroyed by Luffy.According to the way you view both mastery and kenbunshoku haki,Katakuri should have predicted that.But he had let hi guard down and his attention was drawn by something other than Luffy,to its entirety.So no,I don't think mastery is as convenient as the "auto mode" you describe.It's not like you can give Shanks sleeping pills and throw him into the Marine Headquarters only for him to wake up the next day and find out that he somehow destroyed the whole base using haki in his sleep.

    If it's shown that a character who was defeated without having used haki (Ace,Diamante,etc) was actually proficient at using it at the time of their defeat or that a character who fought without using haki (Teach,etc) but was proficient at using it at the time of their fight,then I would of course agree that it would mean that haki was inconsistent prior to the time skip.But as long as Rayleigh's words,which suggest that not all people in the One Piece world can sense/learn haki,are not disproved,then it would still be logical even if some people,who may be relatively high up the power ladder,don't have haki.Should that be the case,not having haki may not be consistent with their overall power levels,but it would be with the rules surrounding haki.

    Oda used blackening for a fight as secondary/tertiary as Sai VS Lao G,so I don't see why Jack wouldn't be shown using it if he actually did use it,considering his position.

    Yeah,I don't disagree that many aspects of the One Piece world have real life example.If anything,there are several such aspects that I would agree with this being the case.But it's also still the case,that the proportions of those aspects are enlarged before being implemented in the One Piece world.So,like I said when we were talking about the injuries of several characters,I think it's good to judge based on real life knowledge to a certain extend,but sometimes doing so with the standards of real life in mind isn't accurate.
     
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  8. Seiryu

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    We've already talked about the basics: seeing/experience to see the patterns of how hip movements guarantee what side and how strong a strike is going to be thrown. Ninja (and all predatory animals) know how to "conceal their presence" by minimizing sounds they create while sneaking up on someone (predators take into account their smell as well, but humans usually don't have a nose sensitive enough to necessitate this).
    But that's the "manga magic" aspect. There is a real life basis (just like the above), but this is taken to an exaggerated level. Every fighting/action based manga has this. In real life, Kobe or any other master of basketball, would be able to instantaneously know what their opponent is trying to do. The rules are such that offensive mastery is much more prevalent and even defensive mastered doesn't seem like much since they are hampered by the rules (offense is universally exciting and what keeps fans/brings in new fans). The previous comment is probably key in that the target audience naturally accepts the foundation as fact. That's just the cultural differences, but the crazy aspect is that Oda's literary mastery still overrides all of that.
    Katakuri is still on a completely different level from the Yonkou/admirals (he still fears for his life if forced to take on Big Mom). So I don't think I've ever said Katakuri "mastered" kenbunshoku. The biggest aspect is that the power level differences. Pretty much every single aspect of a Yonkou should be on a different from all other contenders. To go back to the real life kenbunshoku, anyone with sparring/training experience to have the real life kenbunshoku literally should never get hit by someone with no training. If Blackbeard is truly at a completely different level (my bias is that he has to be close to Shanks), Shanks is able to sense him aggressively prodding around. The "animal instincts" become more and more prevalent the farther apart the skill level. The Zoro and Whitebeard examples are exactly this. If Ace or the random baddie, was close to their level, they would be successful in their sneak attacks.

    Ultimately, any Asian reader (living in Asia), does not have the magic/phenomenon bias. We already know it to be truth (I feel like I don't have to break down the biomechanics of how the hips generate power and movement of a strike). That's also where the lines of haki get blurred because it is the exact same thing as the phenomemon of the "animal instincts". Of course taken to a supernatural level for the sake of excitement/better action.
    And I'd be willing to bet we get revisions with the new databooks (just like Ace and Blackbeard). Same goes for the Dressrosa fights. Based on the level of inconsistencies this thread has exposed, chances are Oda was making mistakes and didn't have a positive working experience for his editors to correct it (I forget exactly when, but Oda's been working with young "yes-men" that see him as God-Oda recently, so that would explain the greater number of inconsistencies the past few years; the stuff more than 2 years ago is caused by Oda and the editors getting more and more upset with each other which is apparent through their willingness to literally back stab Oda by releasing their independent unofficial databooks).

    This is very likely exactly why we are getting these extensive new databooks to clarify haki. The next one was already coming out soon if I'm remembering correctly (I only remember because there is no way I can keep up with translating).
     
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  9. Yuuzume

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    I'd classify all those aspects as feedback from one's respective senses,depending on each's person's perception,and as the experience and instincts that allow one to make use of those efficiently.I don't really see them as a prelude to real life haki/chi/ki usage.

    Then I suppose our opinions differ in where each of us draws the line for the "manga magic" aspect.I see your perspective and I'm quite open to the possibility of haki mastery being enlarged to the respective proportions.However,those proportions would make the Yonko,Admirals and anyone else you suppose possesses such mastery of haki,extremely overpowered.That would be the case especially if you consider the overpowering effects that the respective mastery of busoshoku haki would provide.One Piece has dialed down even powers like the lightning fruit,which would be quite overpowering otherwise,for the sake of not making people extremely overpowered.So far,I haven't seen anything to believe that haki will end up being as extreme as that and that it will go much further than what Katakuri has already shown us.It wouldn't be illogical of course,so I'm not adverse to the possibility,but since there's no indication of it either.So unless we're presented a more concrete reason to do so,I'd rather not think that haki will end up being that extreme.

    Considering that Big Mom needed Katakuri's commentary during the wedding to know what was going on,I don't see any reason to believe that all Yonko/Admirals possess a higher level of kenbunshoku mastery than Katakuri.As far as kenbunshoku goes,the only person out of all the Admirals/Yonko would could fit such a description for now in my eyes,is Shanks.While I agree that they're all kenbunshoku users (except maybe Teach),I don't see a reason to think they'd be more skillful than Katakuri at using kenbunshoku.The animal instincts that have been demonstrated by Zoro and Whitebeard is something that I also consider as a prelude to kenbunshoku haki in the series.However,seeing a picture of the future is supernatural enough for me,it doesn't necessarily have to go further than that.It's possible that it will,but I'd rather wait and see as far as that goes.

    The examples mentioned would be inconsistencies in the scenario that many aforementioned characters were proficient at using haki during their fights but didn't.I'm quite open to new information that any source,such as the databooks,may provide to clear up this issue.However,until such information is provided,said examples aren't inconsistencies.I'm not saying that Oda had planned all this form the beginning.It might have just been the fact that the story is usually quite reserved in revealing information working in his favor by leaving little room for inconsistencies to be created.If the databooks can provide concrete info on the subject,then that information would be welcomed.
     
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  10. Kia

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    I got busy this weekend and missed this reply so I’m late but here it is anyways.


    So Jack, Neko and Inuarashi weren’t fighting seriously? *blink, blink* I’m truly not trying to be an ass here. It’s just that it seems like a lot of what you’re saying is based on you knowing Oda’s intentions and I don’t see how that’s possible. I mean it could be that there’s a bread crumb trail in the manga and I missed it but, if so, please point it out for me. I’d love the clarification.


    We know no such thing about Kaido because it has never been shown or stated anywhere unless there’s a databook out that says so. It can be assumed or guessed but as far as I know, the manga has yet to show us his Haki. I like to deal in actualities for as much as I enjoy flights of fancy. I do not presume to know things that I haven’t been shown or told, especially such large things as that. Since Haki is the One Piece version of chakra/ki/chi/ha, etc, it’s possibly connected to Oda’s sense of morality and that might have something to do with the relative strength of it as well as people’s ability to unlock it. But that’s just a theory of mine. I’m not going to state that as fact. What is a fact is that Rayleigh said not everyone can unlock Haki. Thus I’m not going to presume anything when it comes to a character and their Haki status.


    Okay so I feel rather like a broken record but is there anything other than Jack’s rank that leads you to the conclusion that there’s Haki involved in this altercation? Because this can be explained as skilled fighters to me which is exactly what it looked like when I read it.


    How do you mean he’s oversimplifying things? Because I don’t want to put words in your mouth or presume to know what you’re thinking and the impression I’m getting is that you know better than Oda how the fight should have gone/been written but that can’t be right because I’ve seen your signature and it says something along the lines of respect and appreciation for Oda’s work (I’m mobile so it’s not visible). So it’s got to be something else. Please tell me that’s not the implication here. I’m pretty sure he wrote/drew a perfectly good fight sequence. The only issue is that one of us believes there’s undrawn Haki and one doesn’t or would at least like to understand why besides the character(s) in question are of a certain level.


    Personal preferences are just that. ^_^


    But could you do so while watching television? No because you still need to use your eyes to see the sheet music and pay attention. Or could you do so while receiving a hand or blow job, excuse my crudeness, but your eyes would be free to view the sheet music though your focus would be shot. The point is the same. Mastery is not infallible, it requires consciousness at an exceedingly high level. You’re simply processing extremely rapidly.


    What Kobe’s doing isn’t unconscious at all. It’s highly in depth analysis, if he can actually do it.


    Let’s check out what this word actually means, shall we? Because frankly, you keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means. ^_^

    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/unconscious


    I hear you on the philosophy and all but firstly not all characters use martial arts. Secondly, it’s been flat out stated that not everyone can activate Haki. Thirdly, until it’s shown, why make such huge presumptions? I mean they’re broad, sweeping statements and you’re viewed as an authoritative figure. That’s kind of dangerous, isn’t it? Not everyone has the wherewithal to question and really think for themselves.


    See? I don’t know that anything so strongly worded is truth (I was in the Haki discussion we just had and that totally wasn’t what I got out of it) but everyone is entitled to their views.


    We’ll find something out I hope but I reserve judgment until I get data.


    Not really sure where you were going with this one. ^_^
     
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  11. Seiryu

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    From these comments, pretty much exactly what I was thinking.
    Oda has a plan by bringing "mantra" back (which I completely disagree with) as well as Rayleigh "magically" removing Keimi's explosive collar.
    Oda's simplicity is why the only power-ups are one of three posibilities: awakenings, haki/haki mastery, or technology (the Mugiwaras will likely get a final upgrade from Vegapunk). We've already somewhat plateaued at the physical capabilities. I would 100% bet against Oda introducing anything new, so this is how we know Luffy will close the gap against the Yonkou/admirals by some combination of these 3 factors.
    This entire commentary is why I have always had such a strong bias against mantra from the start. It provides such a huge advantage that tactically, everyone stronger HAS to have it. If Katakuri is the only one with it, he should be able to be able to hang with Yonkou. Either way, WCI has truly begun a spiral of negative changes that I hope is only a short-term deviation...which is what we agree upon based on the last comment.
    "Seriously" would refer to the climax fight of an arc/sub-arc (climax of the Dressrosa tourney or the climax of Luffy vs. Cracker). Other than the protagonists, Oda is not showing blackening for most fights that I'd be willing to bet are haki battles (the whole conversation on the upcoming data books). The databooks have haki sections already for the people in East Blue, so chances are a majority of the people covered will have some level of haki capabilities (why have a haki section if it going to be blank for most people?). Again, this is where the cultural differences (martial arts, spirituality, etc.) are the likely difference of opinions. Any Japanese and probably Asian reader (living in Asia or fluent in the language) does not see many of these things as "phenomena". Haki/ki/chi and fighting capabilities are one in the same. It is 100% present at a much lower level in the real world, but exaggerated to manga levels for excitement. Looks like this ties into the following two sections.
    You will 100% see the simplicity of Oda's writing style if you continue to analyze the series at your current level. A facade of complexity is truly the most accurate way of describing Oda's plot development. It seems complex because all the pieces usually (not recently with WCI; clear exception is anything haki related from the start all the way back with mantra) fit perfectly together.
    Au contraire here. It is unconscious. A human thought takes essentially 1/4 of a second. In a real fight, this is an eternity. Mastery is when the training allows for complete skipping of the conscious thought. The body simply reacts. It is a 100% unconscious reaction to the environmental stimuli. So yes, I would be able to throw my best defensive counter (something to stop a majority of the opponent's forward momentum) based on an unconscious reaction. People learn to not attempt sneaking up on someone if their reaction is a fight response (vs. a flight response).

    So I'd appreciate not bringing up a definition since we both should be familiar with the nervous system.
    To each their own, but the cultural influences play a much bigger role than you think. Oda's said from the start that he is not going to change things for the international readers. The international popularity is greatly appreciated, but Oda used something along the lines of implying a "target audience" and if other people still appreciated his work despite this than it's all good in his eyes (this is way back from when Naruto and Bleach were still at the peak of their popularity).

    Same thing, you and @Yuuzume are still new to the series. It is nowhere near as complex as you think it is. Oda is only a genius at piecing details to fit perfectly. This is nothing more than a facade of complexity. If you keep up with your analysis, you will see this for yourself. The beauty is that it still is exciting despite knowing 80-90% of the details already. Following the series on a weekly basis will change your perspective on Oda, which is exactly why he has always despised being called G-Oda/god-Oda.
     
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  12. Yuuzume

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    You don't really have to wait for mantra to get "back",that happened the moment kenbunshoku haki was introduced.Rayleigh himself said that the term mantra is simply the one that Skypieans use to identify kenbunshoku haki.It only signifies where a person learned kenbunshoku haki from,Skypiea/any place else,and in no way does it signifies the potency of one's kenbunshoku haki.Even Enel,whose kenbunshoku was boosted by his devil fruit abilities,was not as skilled at kenbunshoku as other users and the main effect that his devil fruit ability had on his kenbunshoku haki was the enlargement of the range of Enel's kenbunshoku,along with a slight potency boost since he was suggested to stronger than the Skypiean priests.As for Rayleigh removing Camie's explosive collar,it was suggested to be a feat of either busoshoku or haoshoku since kenbunshoku doesn't have a physical effect.So it was either a busoshoku or haoshoku ability that stemmed either from high level haki mastery or a deep understanding of one's haki.Rayleigh could have very well have extended the busoshoku "armor" only on the tip of his fingertip and used it to pick the collar's lock.Regardless,in any case,I don't see a reason to think it was a feat of kenbunshoku so I don't see how it would mean that kenbunshoku will end up including abilities more extreme than foreseeing the future.On the other hand,we still haven't seen what proper busoshoku or haoshoku mastery can offer,so those two types of haki still have more room for abilities.

    Physical strength,fighting skills,higher level mastery of one's devil fruit,ingenious use of one's devil fruit,fighting tactics,combinations.There have been even more extreme cases (Alabasta for example) when Luffy's "power up" came down to an increase of the volume of his voice and possibly the quality of his plot armor.So even though I do believe that the Srawhat devil fruit users will awaken and that several of the Strawhats will get a haki boost,I'd prefer to keep an open mind as to what the nature of the future power ups will be beyond those two points.Before Luffy's "gears" were introduced,people had skills and physical strength in mind,and not the existence of the gears.Before haki was introduced,people had skills,strength and devil fruit ingenuity like the gears in mind,and not the existence of haki.Before the awakening was introduced,people had skills,strength,haki and devil fruit abilities in mind,and not a straight up evolution of one's devil fruit.

    You call the power ups that Oda has introduced and will introduce "simple" but that's easy to do when so many things have become known.As far as I'm concerned,the story has surprised people before as far as power ups go,and I don't see a reason why it's unable to do so again,hence I'd rather keep an open mind as to what might happen.

    I don't know why you differentiate between mantra and normal kenbunshoku haki as they are exactly the same,but I'll have to disagree with you there.First of all,let me state that I'm talking about kenbunshoku haki as I see it,and not as the auto mode you're suggesting.Many strong individuals possess kenbunshoku haki,and that's enough by itself,just not Katakuri's level of mastery over it.Possessing such mastery,Katakuri can see an opponent's next move more clearly and a step earlier than normal kenbunshoku users.That step gives the privilege of being able to take preemptive action towards his opponents.However,it only looks that overpowering because Katakuri can also manipulate his body at will and effectively dodge attacks by making proper use of the information he gets.Not all people possess such capabilities for dodging attacks,hence why normal kenbunshoku is sufficient for them.Each person focuses on powering up their own strengths,so while it wouldn't surprise me to see more people with Katakuri's level of mastery over kenbunshoku haki,I certainly don't see any reason to think that such levels of mastery would end up being that common.

    As for the WCI arc,I'm sorry to say that I don't really agree with you about it having begun a spiral of negative change.Considering the nature of the conversation,I assume you're talking about Katakuri's level of kenbunshoku mastery.However,Katakuri is a special existence that is simply able to make proper use of the window of opportunity that his mastery of haki gives him,something that can't be said for everyone.Everyone has their own strengths and normal kenbunshoku plays out more than well for most people.I don't see why everyone simply has to have it so I don't see why it would make people overpowered or render the future fights we witness mere staring contests.Once again,let me clarify that I'm talking about kenbunshoku as I see it,and not as any sort of auto mode.

    If you were to make a lit of every One Piece fighter,wouldn't it also include the devil fruit aspect? ("Devil Fruit User: Yes/No") That's because there is at least one devil fruit user in the One Piece world,so I don't see it as weird for there to be a haki category when there is at least one haki user,regardless of how many people end up being haki users.

    As for any beliefs about the existence of haki/chi/ki in real life,I don't see how it's relevant to the conversation at hand.I don't believe in real life haki/chi/ki but that doesn't stop me from seeing as an aspect of the One Piece world.That is a world that Oda created and the existence of haki is an established part of it.What we're discussing is the extend of the capabilities of one particular type of haki,that is kenbunshoku haki.

    Whether or not someone can see something in the series coming isn't predicated on that something being complex or simple,it's predicated on that something being either predictable or unpredictable.Something complex can be predicted and something simple can be missed.Whether or not this series is simple or complex,it doesn't change the fact that the number of times that it has surprised a lot of people are not limited to one or two.It's easy to call the information that has been revealed simple and pass it off as predictable but how many times has that been the case in the past.The more info becomes known,the more predictable many thing become,but that doesn't mean that the series can't surprise people again.The thought that something in the series may not be what they might seem is a privilege that the series has earned.

    In your example,you're still not preoccupied with anything else that has complete grasp of your attention.Furthermore,what you refer to as environmental stimuli is information that needs to be sensed for a person to react to it.When a person focuses intensely on something,any irrelevant information feed is ignored and a person can't react to it.

    As I've said above,the cultural difference only go a far as the existence of real life haki/chi/ki goes.It isn't relevant to the existence of haki in the One Piece world as it is already an established and irrefutable fact.What it comes down to is our opinions of the extend of said haki's capabilities,something that isn't influenced by the cultural differences.

    Speaking for myself here,I'm not saying whether the series is complex,simple or even a combination of complex/simple parts.What I'm saying is that it hasn't been as predictable as you describe it to have been,only after the respective parts of its became known.My perspective on Oda himself is neutral as I prefer to see the series he created.As for said series,I'm not expecting it to be complex so my perspective won't change even if it's completely simple and I'm not expecting it to be unpredictable so my perspective won't change even if it turns out to be completely predictable form now on.As far as I'm concerned,I'm giving the series the credit it's due and it has more than earned the right for people to keep an open mind to outcomes that may have even been considered certainties had it been another series.


    @Kia Apologies for not quoting your comments directly,but I have nothing to add to them.Allow me to just say that I completely agree with them.
     
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  13. Kia

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    I wrote a response, forgot to post them saw Yuuzume’s tag so edited the very first part. Here it is.
    I don’t really have anything to add to what @Yuuzume stated in response to these.


    Again, that’s something upon which we’ll disagree because I’ll take it as written until shown otherwise rather than presume it’s there but not shown. I’ve seen lower level fights with Haki so I believe he’d show it if he wanted to do so.


    It’s statements like this where you state things with 100% certainty that give the impressions of which I spoke earlier. I mean, it’s fascinating. I get that you’ve been following the series forever but we’re all just fans when it comes down to it, right? I appreciate your perspectives but only Oda knows for sure. ^_^


    Now we’re discussing your fight/flight response which is instincts as opposed to your mastery of the bass in high school. That’s a convenient switch of topic for the response, isn’t it?


    Ah you were responding to the definition part not the former, I see. I thought you’d at least appreciate the Princess Bride reference. ^_^


    As an anthropologist, I would never downplay cultural influences. I’m simply going on what’s been stated as rules in universe and what I know from my own experiences working with spiritual energy and those who work with it as well as my studies on it. While the application is not martial in nature, it’s still highly relevant.


    I’ve never claimed that he was a God. Whereas I believe that we all have a spark of divinity inside of us due to the interconnected nature of the energy of the universe, that’s a different matter entirely. I simply do not think that I know better than him how his story is written or what he means/intends, despite my often wild speculations.
     
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  14. Seiryu

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    Someone had a similar theory with Green Lantern as a basis. That would be quite OP, but we'll see. The bias against matra/kenbunshoku to the point of seeing the future is the lack of excitement. I know that you know that I know that X, Y, and Z are going to happen so I counter the counter, of the counter of the preceding counter. It kills action and was best left out completely. We'll see how Oda explains it, but I probably won't like the explanations.

    I disagree on the Enel part though. He was just as good as everyone else as knowing what movement was happening before it happened. I don't remember if it was his fruit ability that extended the range (or just his kenbunshoku was that much better than everyone else). Oda explained it away by having Luffy upset him so that he couldn't concentrate. That's going to be excessively redundant if every fight has to go through this same process (pretty much all of the major fights for the rest of the series).
    I'm referring to the remaining power-ups for the crew. They have essentially maxed out at all of the aforementioned aspects. The "weaklings" of the crew will not magically get superhuman physical capabilities. The monster 4 (with Jinbei) already have the necessary physical capabilities which is apparent through Luffy's Gear Fourth being fast enough to necessitate Kaidou to use his busoushoku to defend.
    ? I've never said they were different in their results. The mechanics are different though. We don't know how Luffy's "emotional" kenbunshoku works, but mantra is clearly hearing based, while Katakuri's is vision based.
    No, the Katakuri fight was undoubtedly supposed to happen, but not now. WCI was supposed to be a short arc (probably only a few months), but the B.S. changes started with Frog-Carrot B.S. The 6ish months of WCI soon after that was not supposed to happen at all. We were supposed to be well into Wano Kuni by now. Oda wasting 6 months of content (and still saying the story progressed 10% when nothing happened) is what I completely detest. Again, Oda seems to want kenbunshoku mastery to be a part of the series. I don't see how you can make that exciting. As long as people stay calm (and someone like Shanks should be the perfect example of this now that he is so seasoned at a Yonkou level), battles have to take 1 week+ because it is a kenbunshoku stalemate.
    And there is a fruit section for every person as well (which is why the East Blue characters have a bunch of empty slots).

    The second part is exactly what I'm getting at. The cultural differences is what I've been beating a dead horse about. There's a reason why it comes up in EVERY action manga. It is accepted as truth and at much lower levels, exists in the real world.
    Doing this sort of banter for 13ish years now, I can 100% guarantee you that Oda will not live up to your preconceptions. His series is still masterful and literary perfection (for the first 20.5 years, I'm having my doubts with more changes seemingly an inevitability). Out of pure necessity, a great majority of the plot is extremely simple. The twists have complexity to them, but that's it. Seeing the same patter for multiple years in a row will change your mind, and especially since Oda has already written himself into a corner. He cannot contradict the 20.5 years of build up. He can try to change some (Sanji's line on the cake KO'ing Big Mom), but people like us are just going to rip him apart for it. We've done exactly that on haki with this discussion.
    Looks like I have to give a different example that you can directly relate to. Do you think "I have to press the "ctrl" and "I" key, then hit the "space" key, then hit the "H" key, then hit the "A" key, then hit the "V" key, then hit the "E" key? We presumably have all "mastered" typing to the point of doing it unconsciously. I'm going to be blunt that it appears you have never truly mastered any professional skill. For martial artists, the discipline is to see it as a "line of work" greater than a normal profession. People dedicate their entire lives to their specific martial art. Just because you have no experience with it doesn't mean it doesn't exist or isn't possible. By no means is it at the levels Oda is doing for the manga, but it is 100% real. The cultural differences are obviously playing a big role, but Oda's said so himself that he will not change anything to tailor for foreign audiences. However, I do believe I've made my point that mastery is a real phenomenon that it truly unconscious. This is why the "auto-on" is a minor exaggeration for manga purposes. Musashi already achieved this is real life.
     
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  15. Kia

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    So you argue to Yuuzume that the problem is that he doesn’t believe in real life Haki/chi/Ki. And for me who does believe in it and cites knowledge and experience thereof, you ignore it completely to continue backhandedly accuse me of cultural blindness—the very issue I addressed when last citing such things? Or am I misunderstanding? I’m honestly losing the point of this discussion by now... but moving on.

    Okay, no I don’t have to think about what keys to press to type as I can type at over 80 wpm (I don’t remember the exact amount since I haven’t been in the workforce for years). But that’s not to say that I could type an articulate response to this message while having any kind of sex because it would require me to actually formulate the words required for said response and my concentration would be shot, which was my point. So perhaps that wasn’t the best example since typing is predicated upon thoughts or other input or perhaps it perfectly illustrates my point. Who’s to say?

    Oh, wait, it’s “auto-on” now? I thought your premise was that it was always on. If Haki is to be automatically turned on, that’s an entirely different story. When did you change your mind? Good grief. The whole argument was about whether it was continuously active or had to be activated. You know what? I’m not doing this right now. I’m going to go have the rest of my night out and enjoy myself. I wish you the best and hope you have a great weekend. ^_^ I might edit this post later.
     
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  16. Yuuzume

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    The presumed lack of excitement that you're suggesting is predicated on the assumptions that every high level fighter will possess Katakuri's level of mastery with kenbunshoku haki,will have the skills to make use of it and that high level kenbunshoku haki will work like some sort of auto mode.We've seen several high level people who didn't fit the bill so far,as far as any of the aforementioned assumptions go,so I don't see a reason to believe that the case will be such.

    I actually don't disagree that Enel was mediocre at using kenbunshoku haki.If anything,it only supports my suggestion that "mantra" is just as potent as normal kenbunshoku haki.As for the reason why I felt the need to point that out,it's because you were referring to kenbunshoku haki of Katakuri's level as "mantra level haki",which I took as a sign of you differentiating them.I get that you meant "Katakuri level haki" by that,but let's not mix the two up.As far as the mechanics go though,I actually don't agree with you.We've even seen Luffy use kenbunshoku both with his eyes closed and with his eyes opened.I do not believe that kenbunshoku haki can be classified based on that kind of difference.

    And that's what I'm referring to as well,let's take Chopper for example.Some might say that the time skip would be a good point to give him haki as he's a purely physical fighter who has already gone beyond any zoan user by possessing more than the three standard zoan forms.And yet the power up that he got after the time skip was new forms and powered up old forms.In other words,he simply increased his mastery over his devil fruit abilities.So I don't see a reason to not keep an open mind as far as power ups go since there are several possibilities even at this point of time.

    I didn't mind the WCI arc.It had character development,its length was fitting for it to have created a fitting scenario for Jimbei to have joined the crew,it gave Luffy a necessary power up since his next opponent was going to be Kaido and allowed for an opportunity for Luffy's bounty to increase.Only Katakuri was shown to possess extreme levels of kenbunshoku haki mastery and he's a rare existence who can also make use of the window of opportunity that that level of mastery gives him,so I don't see how that kills the excitement either.

    Precisely,which is why I wouldn't find it weird at all for many people to have one more empty spot as far as the haki section is concerned.

    The cultural differences would be relevant if this was a discussion about the existence of haki in the One Piece world.So,as I didn't say that haki doesn't exist in the One Piece world,I don't see how cultural differences are relevant.If you were talking about me not believing that haki/chi/ki exists in the real world,then it may have been a matter of cultural differences or simply personal opinion,but it wouldn't be relevant to this discussion either way,as I would still not be able to say that haki doesn't exist in the One Piece world.


    As I have said previously,I don't have any preconceptions or expectations of the series as a whole.I simply give it the credit it's due for the material it has already shown us and keep an open mind as to why it will show next.We're talking about a series that has surpassed many people's expectations previously,so it has earned the right for people to think that it's possible for it to do it again.As for the haki discussion,as I've said before,I don't know what will happen in the future but I don't see any inconsistencies having been created so far.

    Even in this example,your focus is not hindered by anything else.Can you type the same way you're suggesting when you're falling off a cliff? I doubt anyone would,as they object of their focus would most likely not be the keyboard.As for cultural differences,I don't see how it's relevant here at all.
     
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  17. Dreamer

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    Wow, that's lot of information. Your theory is interesting and I think it makes sense :).
     
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  18. Yuuzume

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    Thank you very much for the compliment,it's much appreciated.
     
  19. Seiryu

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    This is ultimately something I've battled for 12 years now. I am just blunt in my writing style. I have a negative tone even if I'm perfectly happy because every single page I wrote was literary analysis (when I absolutely hated English as a subject). I've done nothing but write literary analysis, so it is just a part of how I write. Maybe that's why my opinion seems to be more impactful upon reading when I try not to be. It is also why it has a 50-50 split on if people view it from a negative bias. I'm busy, so I can't read every word, but from what I remember, myself and @Yuuzume have made progress on chipping away at our own biases to see the other's perspective (something you and I were discussing in the Justice thread).

    So, ultimately yes. I truly think none of my words are meant to be an attack on anyone (one exception was someone trying to be cyber bully, so I rubbed his own crap back in his face).

    As for the ultimate discussion, I think the typing example is exactly my point. Mastery is the point of doing a skill unconsciously. Haki is just a higher level of the defensive "animal instincts", defensive muscle guarding/rolling with a blow, defensive/offensive observation of what the opponent is going to do/move next, etc. They are one in the same from a martial arts perspective. The levels of mastery are different, but the skill/ability that allows them are all the same (all predictive aspects are kenbunshoku while all physical offensive/defensive aspects are busoushoku; the hard part is that Oda creates a baseline where you can have the skills but it is still not called kenbunshoku/busoushoku yet).

    Kaidou being on a completely different level is proof of this. With his kenbunshoku and mastery of being efficient with his busoushoku, he literally foresees and isolates his haki to only the area where Luffy's fists are going to hit. We now see how Law's comments on Luffy wasting too much of his haki can be put into context. Rather than constantly using a large amount, efficiency with a per-need basis is how the elite of the elite fight at that level for 1 week+.

    I'm out of time, so I'll address the remaining responses on Thursday/Friday when I get a chance.
     
  20. Kia

    Kia
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    Okay, this is where the linguist in me comes out and I probably sound like I’m lecturing. My most sincere apologies in advance. None of this is intended as an insult to your intelligence or knowledge base. I just get on a roll when it comes to language so if I cover something that you know, that’s why. Communication is made up of both the denotation (what is stated) and the connotation (what can be inferred from or is generally implied by such statements). Once you’ve been made aware that there’s an issue in the interpretation of your communication style, especially continuously—as you’ve stated repeatedly has occurred—then there’s a responsibility to do some self-reflection and make some changes to ameliorate the issue. Not doing so leads to the ones to whom you’re communicating conclude that you don’t care what impression is drawn from your communication, that the resulting interpretations and any misunderstandings or insults taken by the receiver are entirely their fault. In fact, you’ve just clearly made statements wherein you’ve placed the culpability on the receivers regardless of the outcome as you’ve pretty much stated “this is how I’ve been for years (and this is why), it’s up to the one receiving the message and their willingness to hear it whether they’ll take it negatively or not.” People are not stuck in their communication patterns forever. It is possible to adapt them. This is knowledge from both my academic career and personal life. I spent years upon years learning how to communicate in a manner that was not harsh and abrasive. I still am almost brutally honest but I know how to phrase things because the point is that it’s best to ensure that people can hear what you’re saying. That means doing your best to make sure that they don’t get lost in or sidetracked by negative emotions inspired by your communication. Since the words that one says are only a percentage of communication, when writing, ensuring that tone is properly conveyed is especially important. There are simple things to do to work on one’s tone and impression. (When writing, word choice and phrasing are critical as being aware of potential connotation is part of effective communication, similarly, when choices are potentially ambiguous emoticons or clarification can be provided.) The easiest is to not state things like that you didn’t have the time to properly read and respond to someone. That gives the impression of being holier than thou. Especially when combined with completely ignoring something that someone stated. Not intending to be insulting does not mean that you weren’t being dismissive and insulting. There is a type of privilege that exists wherein people can be dismissive of others then dismiss even the feelings of those being dismissed because no ill was intended. As I stated before, self-reflection is a wondrous thing. ^_^ Anyways, yes, I should move on to the topic at hand and stop with the tangent into my university days.

    Okay yeah so I let myself tangent there and distracted from my point in my original post. It wasn’t so much that I was being attacked but that arguments and previously stated information were being disregarded and circumvented. Basically I’ve stated multiple times, ad nauseam and in detail how I treat the cultural aspects of chi/Ki/chakra, spirit/body/mind unison, universe energy, plus that I recognize the fact that each society’s culture shapes everything that they produce and informs their realities. So to state “the cultural differences are obviously playing a big role” in response to me dismisses all my previously expressed thoughts and experiences as invalid or nonexistent in order to make your point. The implication is that anyone who could see past the differences could see what you see. So, are the differences related to chi/Ki/Haki/energy? Are they in regards to the mind/body/spirit union?

    OMG. I think I may have to change my entire perspective because I just remembered something when I was about to respond to the typing thing about how you didn’t deal with the distraction aspect again. Apparently I can type while engaging in illicit activities or I could while I was a teenager. Since I’m a much better typist now, I should be able to do so now as well. I just haven’t tried it because, well, I mean what message is that important, right?! So, I need to think about this for a while and re-evaluate what it means logically for the arguments before I respond further.

    Also I’d like to get into the One Piece and Haki stuff but there’s something missing like the question of whether in your view it’s supposed to be auto on or not and I’m hesitant to respond just yet because I’m hoping that will be addressed in your next post. ^_^
     
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