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The Truth Behind Devil Fruits and SMILEs and The Reason Why Blackbeard Can Use Two Abilities.

Discussion in 'One Piece Theories' started by Yuuzume, Mar 14, 2018.

  1. Seiryu

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    Exactly. I've made a conscious effort to change over the years, but at a certain point, a negative bias cannot be overcome. I would argue you did have a negative bias. From my outside perspective, I do not think Yuuzume took it as an attack to perceive my comments to imply anything even close along the lines of "cultural blindness". If he did, then all the more props to him for being big enough to still respond in the manner that he did.

    I am going to stand by my conclusion that people will be able to take my info for what is intended for while those with a negative bias are going to read it as such and take it personally. This leads to the major point I didn't have time to expand upon. For any conversation us superfans (super in the over-analytical aspect), we essentially agree on 99-99.9% of the context (prior to B.S. changes, and yes I do have to emphasize that since it is the only point where major contradictions become common vs. no contextual contradictions in the first 20.5 years. And more on this later). Personal biases will naturally put perspectives on the options that still fit in different directions.

    I think a big part is that I am not ignoring what is presented (of course I agree with the rationale and respect the different beliefs that stem from cultural differences), but One Piece is Japanese biased. It is, and always will be Japanese biased. Oda is purposefully avoiding multilayered Japanese puns being a key part of the plot (he still uses his wit for comedic effect) once the international popularity started, but again, Oda said so himself that he is going to write the story aimed at targeting the Japanese audience. From a Japanese perspective (I should emphasize, you would probably have to talk to a 45-50+ year old since most people my age grew up idolizing anything American and scorned traditional Japanese culture as a whole, which is why a lot of the true arts are dying off since there literally are no successors), all of this haki stuff has a completely different perspective.

    If I can give analogies/examples, I should be able to convey the aspects to at least change part of someone's bias (the key aspect of any debate). Ultimately, it still comes down to "ripping people's posts apart", but it is only taken that way with a negative bias. From my outside perspective, my read was that I was having a mutually beneficial back and forth with Yuuzume. Ultimately, our biases will not change, but understanding more about the opposite perspective is more beneficial. Being open minded allows for the most accurate analysis.

    So to go back to the haki mastery, in the exception of a stimuli to affect the mental fortitude of a user, haki should be constant (again the "animal instincts" is by a martial arts definition kenbunshoku; Oda has his own benchmarks for his creation). Shanks is not a good example because Oda was forced into adding the arm loss. Now that we have confirmation of Shanks being Yonkou level, he could have probably been on the shore and sent a haoushoku attack to KO the sea king.

    I still have a strong bias against mantra/mastered kenbunshoku because of how it kills action. Kaidou vs. Luffy initially seemed exciting, but Kaidou's kenbunshoku (the isolated face panel with the dark shading, which is different from previous usages of only shading) killed the action since he could then isolate busoushoku just to the areas he foresaw getting struck. Once both people have mastered kenbunshoku, it is just mind games of "I counter the counter to your counter of the counter's counter" crap. I still have enough faith in Oda (going to have to get to this soon before I forget) that he probably has a plan to keep fights exciting, but this is exactly why Whitebeard can swat a damn powerful Ace like a fly in his sleep. In real life the same concept applies that an advantage is only gained when the skill levels of opponents are significantly different (like Zoro pre-timeskip and a random weak underling).

    I still have faith because mastered busoushoku is probably the key. I have to assume Rayleigh taking off Keimi's explosive collar is this. It does open up a potential pandora's box since we introduce a new aspect of "magic", but as long as we have defined parameters, it will not allow for misinterpretation/poke holes in the content/context.

    I have a very strong bias against Oda not because he is changing the content, but because he appears to be changing his morals. Oda has never stated it directly (since he can't), but the entire series is built on morals. Good triumphing over the seemingly omni-powerful evil. The impossibility of doing something big alone and the need to rely upon nakama to overcome ordeals. Always saying a proper "thank you" rather than "no prob" (or some other variant).

    I truly believe nothing should change someone's key morals. Whether it is pride, money, or something else, Oda is deviating from his previously 100% universal good vs. evil. It is very subtle (and again that's the <1% we are discussing here), but even antagonists that are moral people (Senor Pink immediately pops into mind) still get their karma/bachi. Of course the powerhouse moral antagonists like Aokiji and Garp to a certain extent (I personally think the Ace scene is sufficient for Garp's karma/rinne/samsara/balance of the universe aspect), have not had their moment yet...actually maybe Aokiji's leg might be it. Either way, Oda always made an oversimplification of good vs. evil. The fact that this is no longer his universal priority, and I think the "thank you" example is probably the best example of how much morals used to mean to the series, means that Oda (even if subconsciously) is putting something other than morals as his #1 priority. My blunt writing style may not convey it, but someone changing their morals is the biggest way to lose my respect.

    Thankfully, we've only had a couple people here that I just got a bad vibe/read from. Literally 99+% of the people that come through here appear to be good people. I'm sticking around primarily because of that. I can override my biases if general discussions occur, but I think it is humanly impossible if we are diving into the intricacies/petty details of something like this discussion.
    Yes, so ultimately we both still agree that there should be a rational way to work around it. The fact that all of us here can't think of something has me worried (and again, my bias with Oda's subtle change in morals is why I am now much more skeptical than before).
    This probably goes to my mind categorizing things to keep track. Anything over a few seconds into the future has to be in a separate category. Mantra/Katakuri levels/mastered kenbunshoku all have to be separate from all other kenbunshoku. I may interchange them as my typing mood fits so that's probably where this differing bias grew bigger than need be.

    Out of time, so back tomorrow.
     
  2. Yuuzume

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    @Kia @Seiryu

    Pardon my late reply,I'll try to address the current points one at a time.

    1) @Seiryu This matter originally doesn't involve me as much as the two of you,but I'll share my opinion since I was mentioned,if that's alright.For what it's worth,I didn't perceive your answers as you accusing me of cultural blindness.However,the matter at hand isn't how I perceived it,but how Kia did.If I didn't misunderstand what Kia previously said,she didn't say that you were accusing me of cultural blindness.Instead,she said that she perceived your answer as such due to the fact that you were using the cultural difference as the reason to explain the difference in how we each perceive haki even though she stated that she believes in the existence of ki/chakra/chi/etc in real life.That is to say,regardless of any other possible difference,there is no difference in your opinions to speak of when the existence of ki/chakra/chi in real life is concerned.Putting any specifics aside,you both believe that it exists in real life so it doesn't reason to use cultural difference as an argument when Kia is concerned.After all,if I'm not mistaken,you were suggesting that the cultural difference was the reason that our opinions on whether chi/chakra/ki exists in real life.So since Kia also believes that it exists,cultural difference is no longer relevant in this subject.This is merely what I perceived from Kia's words when the subject was mentioned.If I said anything that doesn't conform to what she meant to say,she's of course more than welcome to correct me as this is merely my interpretation of her original statement.

    2) I'm not sure why you're focusing on the existence of ki/chakra/chi in real life in the first place.Even though I don't believe that it exists in real life,I don't let that belief affect my view of the world of One Piece that Oda has created or the unique rules and laws and go hand to hand with it,with haki being one of them.However,even if we take that into account,shouldn't the outcome be the opposite of what you're suggesting? According to you,haki is something that has a corresponding counterpart in real life (ki/chakra/chi/etc) and has effects that may seem magical to people who don't believe in its existence.It is something that you say you have seen an example of and something you have experienced.So if anything,your belief and experience should have made haki less magical in your eyes than it would be in the eyes of a non Japanese person.So if anything,if my opinion of haki in real life affected my opinion of haki in the One Piece world,then I should be the one perceiving it as something magical and you the one perceiving it as something closer to the ground.

    3) We're finally at the subject at hand,haki.Kenbunshoku haki may look like the upgraded version of a person's basic instincts,but it also requires the energy known as haki to be utilized for it to take effect.That very fact differentiates instincts from kenbunshoku haki as kenbunshoku haki requires a person to consciously activate it.The only instances of people who activated haki unconsciously are the examples of Aisha,Coby,Otohime and Luffy.However,it's more accurate to say that haki "leaked out" than it is to say that they activated it.It's more similar to a sudden burst that results from someone having unlocked haki but not having learned how to control it.And that sudden burst is not as convenient as appearing whenever one is in danger and isn't something that can be relied on as it comes unbeknownst to the user and isn't something that they can control.As for figures that have learned how to properly use haki,such instances do not occur and they have to consciously use haki to activate its effects.

    As for haki being "on" all the time and be something akin to an "auto-mode",kenbunshoku haki utilizes the haki of one's haki reserves.Those reserves are not without limit so kenbunshoku haki ins't something that people can have "on" at all times as it would drain them of their haki,especially if we're talking about Katakuri level kenbunshoku haki.I simply don't see how such a feat would be possible.

    In the end,what people have to rely on to deal with surprise attacks,is their battle instincts.Like in the examples that have been mentioned (Whitebeard swatting Ace and Zoro noticing the Franky Family),one can notice other's presence just with a person's instincts.Never was it said that Whitebeard used kenbunshoku haki to deal with Ace's assaults,and even if disregard that point,Zoro wasn't even aware of what haki was when he noticed the presence of the Franky Family in his sleep.Such instinct is certainly formidable,but it's not formidable enough to compare to kenbunshoku haki and is not beyond being overcome by certain surprise attacks.So,if people notice an attack through instincts and then simply use kenbunshoku haki consciously to deal with the attack,then it can neither be said that kenbunshoku haki is something unconscious nor that they used kenbunshoku haki to notice the attack in the first place.If they activated their kenbunshoku haki after the attack had taken place,then it can't be said that they used haki to detect,but pure instincts instead.The only way that it can be said that they detected it through kenbunshoku haki is if they had activated kenbunshoku haki prior to the attack taking place and noticing it through haki.Of course,like I've said above,that's something that's physically impossible as it would require an unlimited amount of haki.The instances people use it are during battle and on instances where they have to be on guard,so it's perfectly plausible to catch them off guard the rest of the time.Kenbunshoku haki at Katakuri's level may seem god like and overpowered,but it's certainly not as all powerful as that.

    Furthermore,it has been shown that a person can be caught off guard even while using kenbunshoku haki that is close to Katakuri's level of mastery,if not on par with it.That was shown when Luffy was struck by Flambe's dart while fighting Katakuri.Let's say that a person has 100% attention to use for everything he does.If using Kenbunshoku haki takes up 20% (random number) for a normal person,then increasing one's mastery in it means decreasing that number as much as possible.But the key detail is that decreasing that number does not make it 0%. A skill that needs haki to be activated requires even a fraction of one's attention.If someone uses up 100 or even 120% of one's focus because of a certain situation,then it's difficult to even notice everything around them and receive all those feeds of information that would have triggered their instincts and thus their reactions,much like Luffy didn't notice Flambe's attack because he was focused on his fight with Katakuri.

    Last but not least when kenbunshoku is concerned,there's also this:
    I'll have to disagree here unfortunately.You suggest that all the high level figures from here on will possess Katakuri's level of kenbunshoku haki and abilities that match it and you're hoping that Oda will find a way to circumvent this.On the other hand,I'm saying that Katakuri's level of kenbunshoku haki is not that all powerful by itself,so it doesn't need as much circumventing as you're suggesting.On top of having Katakuri's level of kenbunshoku haki,a person would to have abilities that match it in addition to it to make the most out its combat strength.One would need to be a skill specialist that dodges through skill (Katakuri),a speed specialist (Luffy up to an extend) or a defense specialist (possibly Kaido but not confirmed yet). Depending on match ups,then the future fights will not involve "countering the counter of the counter" situations.For example,if Luffy encounters a defense specialist whose defense is weaker than Luffy's attack,then he'll receive damage even if he foresees the attack and defends.Similarly,if Luffy encounters a speed specialist whose speed is lower than his,then he'll catch up to them in the end and the ability kenbunshoku provides will be for naught.Due to it being so dependent to the rest of the abilities of a person,I doubt that we'll see many people who have reached that level of mastery as they'd have chosen to strengthen a different ability.You speak of Katakuri level kenbunshoku haki and dodging at the same time,but it's not like Katakuri level kenbunshoku haki comes as a package with a miraculous ability to dodge attacks.If the rest of the person's skills are not up to par,then the Katakuri level kenbunshoku haki is wasted.Imagine if Axe Hand Morgan possessed Katakuri level kenbunshoku haki.Do you think he could go even a single round against Luffy? Much like when Luffy beat Sandersonia through pure speed,it's shown that kenbunshoku haki is not all powerful and it merely augments the rest of the persons abilities by giving them an advantage when their utilization is concerned.Like I've said before,Katakuri is a unique existence who could make proper use of that level of kenbunshoku haki due to the rest of his abilities.So neither think that all that many people will have attained such mastery over kenbunshoku haki or that the fights between people who have will be revolved around "countering the counter's counter" situations.
     
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  3. Seiryu

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    Just as I said in the response to @Kia, the bias is very unlikely to change. I've been doing this long enough to realize it's just not worth trying to please everyone. Of course I am willing to incorporate feedback, but ultimately if someone has a negative bias almost nothing will change it. I've made changes over my years here and I assume that's part of the reason why Owl trusted me to become an admin despite a whole bunch of other limiting issues.

    The feedback I was given was essentially don't worry about trying to change misinterpretations because that's their right to have their views.

    I do have to get back to the cultural aspect though. Maybe a better example will convey properly. Throughout the series, but most in the first 10ish years. Oda literally spent hundreds, if not thousands of hours planning every arc and the minuscule details of everything (character names, their design, historical references, etc.). The easiest example since it is in English is Zeff's name. English readers can only get two layers of the play on words. I will not even bother to claim to know what culture it is, but Zeff's character design is based on the European culture that makes "chef" sound like "Zeff". So anyone can readily see the "chef Chef" pun. Only Japanese readers will have the potential to see the 1-liner to further play off of this play on words. It usually is purposefully at a random point in the arc, but this sort of subtle detail is what the literary analysis part of my personality loved. Oda obsessed and literally put his soul into every little aspect to make everything fit perfectly (more on this after the cultural stuff).

    Another example is the "Saru" (monkey) "saru-vage" brothers (salvage has the first two katakana characters to be "saru"). Same situation that the first two layers of the play on words is impossible to miss (the problem is that the translator now needs to point it out to non-Japanese readers). Even the best translators at the time (Kaizoku-Fansubs and Binktopia) missed the 3rd layer of play on words because it was probably purposefully hidden. Current translators might have picked it up, but Oda stopped doing this completely since I assume he doesn't want non-Japanese readers to be left out of something important.

    On a side tangent, if we compare to the hastily and obviously much less planned out characters/character designs/character personalities, it is very lazy. Things are all relative. My normal is the 100's-1000's of hours per character/per arc. Hours to dozens of hours is still probably much more than most other mangaka, but it now creates openings to be much less universally appealing. Although it is/was extremely simplistic, Oda's style of planning out EVERY single detail is why it is essentially universally appealing and impossible to present alternative explanations.

    I truly think Oda's "soul" is no longer 100% into the series. Even if it is subconscious, because his morals are not 100% the priority, his "heart is not in it". This may literally only be a decrease from 100% down to 99.99%, but it is still enough to create dramatic differences. Oda is still working just as hard as ever, but he has much more responsibilities. Unfortunately, the manga is going to suffer based on the recent trend of the manga, which is exactly why fans as a whole have a more negative view on the arc/content as well as why misinterpreting alternative explanations/situations are possible. The simplicity is why there used to only be one possible outcome of situations. The literary beauty is that Oda created a flow so that it seemed like something out of no where.

    But back to the main topic, just as Oda said so himself, One Piece is primarily for Japanese readers and he will not change (the primary writing style, which is best seen with the constant Japanese references of Wano Kuni; again, he is making smaller changes to accommodate for international popularity). Most people my age don't know the physical foundation/physiology of haki, but because the manga culture uses it constantly, it is still culturally the norm (while it is obviously not the norm for pretty much most other cultures). Not knowing Japanese/Japanese culture is going to give less insight on the series. This definitely can be readily misinterpreted as an "attack" so I didn't want to put it this way (without having to type out all of the above, it would have been something short and blunt like not being Japanese is going to give less insight).

    Unfortunately, the world as a whole is a crappy place. In general, I'll just ignore a majority of it, so I fully support those that see my posts through a negative bias to just ignore it. As long as one person can get additional insight to bridge the cultural gap/analytical gap (something that the three of us as well as a large number of the fans here do on a regular basis), I'll be sticking around.
    By Oda's definition, this may be correct (we currently do not have an answer and may not since Oda may never answer questions about Zoro or if anyone else did something similar). However, from the Japanese/Asian culture, they are one in the same. If Oda further clarifies in the recent/upcoming databooks, then naturally I will adjust accordingly, but Oda's tendency is to try to avoid having to clarify every single detail to people. This is exactly why he gave specific parameters on how to read a chapter. He in his usual politically correct manner, does everything but directly state "read it thoroughly for yourself to come to a conclusion" (so that I don't have to waste my time having to specify every single detail).
    Kaidou is the perfect example of how to efficiently use "haki energy". Fujitora is also a perfect example of how little "haki energy" it takes to have a high level of constant kenbunshoku. Luffy is the exact opposite because he uses an excessive amount constantly. The only other close example I can think of is Vergo (who only did it as an emergency defensive technique; kenbunshoku was not emphasized at the time, but contextually he had kenbunshoku to see Law's attack coming and thus did the whole body defensive busoushoku as a result).
    Although this is 100% true, Oda's simplicity is why it is very likely to be kenbunshoku. Oda cannot keep track of multiple alternatives. All things to touch a fruit user is offensive busoushoku. All characters will be protagonists/antagonist based on their morals (we now have gray area, but the law of "Oda's patterns/tendencies" is still true). All predictive capabilities is essentially going to be kenbunshoku (again the hard part is that Oda is complicating it by creating his own threshold where it is or isn't "kenbunshoku"). All the other action manga I can think of do not bother to create a classification for predictive capabilities. Creating sub-classifications just seems excessive, which is exactly why all of this is happening.
    None of these people are at the levels of admiral/Yonkou level. Again, I have to go back to the "mastery" aspect. Mastery allows for unconscious performance (and at a high level). This is universal for all skills, which is exactly why the cliche of "being able to do it in my sleep" becomes a cliche. Even if I'm going to die, I can still type because it is so natural. Realistically, if I was in a situation where I was going to die, I would be able to type faster and more accurately because I would be hyper-focused to type out my last goodbyes to family and friends (I'm also unique in that I can truly say I've lived a full life and can die happy even if it was right now). Maybe regrets would inhibit the ability to focus and overcome the situation. However, it is safe to assume the elite of the elite also have greater mental fortitude than all other characters.
    And I will have to clarify that the post you quoted is ONLY referring to the established content. Of course our individual biases are going to create differences on future content. Again, if I remove my Japanese bias, I can 100% agree with everything you and @Kia are presenting (again, I am not ignoring, but I just respectfully disagree because of my individual biases).
    Although this is true, the superhuman level is why it alone is a deal-breaker/battle winner. From a pure tactical standpoint, knowing what the opponent is doing allows for preventative counters (stop the problem before it ever becomes a threat). Katakuri should have killed Luffy. He can create blades. Luffy is only alive because of plot armor. Prediction is such a huge advantage, common sense would allow a person with much less physical capabilities to win over someone with all the physical talent in the world (but not the predictive abilities). This is exactly why martial arts allows children to defend themselves against adults who do not have training.

    Based on both Jack and Kaidou, this "Katakuri-level" of kenbunshoku appears to be the norm. To each their own, and we will get answers soon enough.

    Also, I do have to apologize to @Kia since I am almost 100% sure I've referred to you as a male (I just assume people are a male if not listed unless I pick up on something or someone/they state so).
     
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  4. Kia

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    Umm I’m going to reply more later but no apologies needed regarding my gender because it’s not listed (and still hasn’t been disclosed) so I’ve been referred to as female and male. It’s irrelevant what my gender is. Thanks though. ^_^ Feel free to keep calling me by whatever pronouns you choose.
     
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  5. Yuuzume

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    What you describe at the beginning is more of a pure language barrier rather than a cultural one,as someone who knew Japanese would be able to understand those puns regardless of culture,but I'm just going to assume that you meant that there are both cultural and language barriers for any non Japanese reader.As far as language goes,then I don't think that any non Japanese reader would miss anything other than puns,and not any vital piece of information.After all,all the vital pieces of information are conveyed through translation and that the things that may not be able to be conveyed completely as they were meant in their original language are usually puns,idioms,sayings,etc.In any case though,I don't think that there is any piece of information related to haki that wouldn't be able to be conveyed through translation so any person who doesn't know Japanese would be on equal ground with any Japanese reader by reading the translated version.As for the cultural difference,it explains why Japanese readers would find some things familiar,like suffixes,celebrations,events,etc while non Japanese readers would be unfamiliar with them at first glance,but not why kenbunshoku haki would seem to be so magic like in the eyes of people who believe in the existence of ki/chi/chakra.If anything,like I've said before,haki should logically seem less magic like in that case,as it is viewed as something life like.In any case,while the belief that chi/chakra/ki exists in real life is not one I share with you,let me just mention that it's not limited to Japanese people.So as far as someone holds that belief,there's no barrier to speak off.

    Isn't Oda's definition (haki) what we've been talking about? Real life chi/chakra/ki was mentioned but let's not forget that it's not akin to haki.Haki has been introduced as an energy that needs to be activated through the use of techniques (kenbunshoku,busoshoku,haoshoku) to display various effects and is not activated all the time.Furthermore,haki itself has been introduced as merely a type of energy that is akin to stamina and can likewise run out,making it physically impossible to be in use at all times.Also,let's not confuse haki itself with the techniques that are associated with it.We may mention haki as kenbunshoku haki,busoshoku haki or haoshoku haki,but it's not like there is a separate haki reserve for each type.Each person only has one reserve with general haki and the names "kenbunshoku,busoshoku and haoshoku" merely refer to a respective technique of the utilization of haki.Since kenbunshoku is merely a technique,it further supports the suggestion that it can't be in use all the time as it needs haki to stay active and haki is a type of energy that has been proven to run out after use.Mastering the use of the technique known as "kenbunshoku" may allow the user to attain greater effects than normal users (foresight) or optimize the amounts of haki needed to activate the technique,but I still don't think it would mean that a person can keep it activated during all times.As for Kaido,he still got bashed by Luffy's surprise attack so it still reasons how it's not feasible to have kenbunshoku haki activated at all times.While on the other hand,it wasn't stated that Fujitora's ability to walk around normally when outside of battle is thanks to kenbunshoku haki and from having been seen to use his walking cane at times,it could just as easily be inferred that he mostly gets by with his other senses when outside of battle.As for Vergo:
    There's no reason to think that Vergo's instincts were necessarily kenbunshoku haki.Zoro has notice the presence of the Franky Family and Luffy retracted his intended attack against Hawk Eye during the Marinefold arc because he thought that his arms would be cut off despite not knowing how to use kenbunshoku haki.Not every single reaction to attacks is necessarily sue to kenbunshoku haki,there is still the battle instinct that some people possess through tempering it via battling and gaining experience.

    As far as know,Katakuri is considered the epitome of kenbunshoku haki mastery.So why was he taken off guard during his lunch break? He certainly possess high levels of mastery in kenbunshoku haki and is even the person we've been using as a standard for that level of mastery.So if having kenbunshoku haki activated at all times was possible,how could Luffy have caught the man who can foresee the future off guard? I assume it's because a feat such as having kenbunshoku haki activated at all times is simply not possible,which also matches the notion that haki can run out,as it has been displayed already.As for typing,you're further proving the point that some situations force someone to give 100-120% of their attention to a single thing.Even though in that example the person was falling,their desire to convey a message to loved ones would have grasped all of their attention and they'd be entirely focused on while being oblivious to even their current situation.

    Of course,each person has their own opinion,and that's completely understandable.They are absolutely no worries there and I appreciate the exchange of opinions.But isn't the post I quoted directed at future content? It mentions a need to work around kenbunshoku haki,which predicates the need to work around kenbunshoku haki,which in turn predicates the assumption that kenbunshoku haki will end up being godlike.

    While it certainly contributes a great deal depending on the rest of the abilities of a person,I'm suggesting that it's not a battle winner by itself.A character whose speed far outmatches a pure kenbunshoku user would defeat him as the kenbunshoku user would have no way to dodge the other's attacks even if they foresaw them.Prediction is an advantage only if your skills allow you to actually eliminate the future threat,otherwise it's simply knowing how one would end up losing.

    I wouldn't really be surprised if Kaido had Katakuri level kenbunshoku haki,but I doubt that Jack has.Neither Jack's battles at Zou or his battle against Shutenmaru showed any signs of him possessing kenbunshoku haki that's even close to Katakuri.After all,he kept getting caught off guard even during battle.In any case,I don't believe that Katakuri level haki will end up being common to the extend that every single person would possess it.Even Luffy,who has come close,can't be said to possess Katakuri level kenbunshoku haki.
     
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  6. Seiryu

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    Cultural references are probably a better example then. Even something as small as Luffy's love of meat is still going to be culturally different. Even with Americanization, meat is still much more expensive (relative to most other foods; fruits in general are also similarly exponentially overpriced because of the cultural differences) and "prized" in Japan. Even though Luffy lives and desires things at a very basic level (nothing extravagant), his diet reflects his lofty dreams of becoming Pirate King. Everything else about him (especially the way he chooses to dress) does not reflect this and fits perfectly with his moral based lifestyle. This is a nice contrast to the polar opposite of Blackbeard recently and his rock star extravagance now that he is a legitimate Yonkou.

    Even with great translators, it is impossible to have enough "translator's notes" to cover all of these. Again, we are bantering over the 0.01 or less, petty details. Translators naturally pick up on many of these cultural differences, but don't bother explaining them if it isn't relevant to the main conversation (Jaimini's Box is a bit more thorough in that they throw in translator's notes for pretty much anything they are familiar with even if it isn't a major part of the plot). But the same concept is that these petty details are necessary for greater accuracy of predictions/theories.

    As for the cross-cultural similarities, of course. Which is exactly why I have used "Asian cultures" repeatedly through this process. Ultimately, our cultural differences are creating another problematic difference. You and @Kia definitely seem way too literal with everything. Especially for something like One Piece, we have to be discussing in relatively broad concepts and then debate the petty details from there. This directly leads to another side tangent, that I hope you guys are not a part of but...Oda will not be able to live up to any "god-Oda" expectations. His style is simplicity while masterfully distracting from the simplicity. What he is failing to realize is that even if it is predictable, it still has almost the same impact upon us readers.

    Is it possible that he learns a new skill over the next 4-5ish years? Of course. Considering his level of mastery of creating a facade of complexity, I would readily bet against it. Trying to master something has been commonly referenced to require 10,000 hours. Considering he is trying to build a completely new writing style skill (he literally has done nothing else the entire 21 years of the series), the series is going to end by the time he gets close to the necessary repetition and experience through trial and error (which is exactly why his initial trials with WCI and parts of Wano Kuni have conflicting context or Oda getting mixed up on organizational info).

    I'll share the epiphany moment for myself. Someone back in K-F shared how two friends had figured out Garp being related to Ace and Luffy way back when the manga was still on Enies Lobby. They noticed that Luffy, Ace, and Garp all had severe narcolepsy. When I first read it, I thought there was no way this one single trait could confirm the family connection (of course we much later learn that Ace doesn't share a true blood relationship, but Luffy and Ace's brothership oath is so strong that Oda treats them as blood relatives => the over exaggeration of genetics carrying physical and personality traits to a physically impossible extent in the real world). Once I accepting this to be the truth, figuring out future stuff with much higher accuracy became the norm.

    Oda has already written himself into a corner, so both of you can figure out the major events for the rest of the series (I forget where is was, but the planned opponent for Akainu is a good example @Yuuzume). I can guarantee that knowing it consciously makes little to no difference on the level of enjoying the revelations. This goes back to the morals/soul aspect. Almost any culture has some sort of how "putting your heart" into the work (cooking is probably a good English example) is going to make it more successful. Oda's true passion will be conveyed though his hard work to an exponentially greater extent than his pride/petty/whatever this new subtle change is. It is still early so the discrepancies will not be picked up (they have nothing to reference directly to make them stand out of place). As they accumulate, the perfect picture will fall apart.

    Ultimately, there are just "laws of nature" or "laws of the world". They are completely universal. Even if you disagree with some of the details, the major concept of the point I am arguing for should just make sense.

    Before I forget, it definitely seems to be a good trait among younger millennials, but over-apologizing is possible. When someone says "there is no need to apologize", if the person is not being sarcastic, it literally is something to not worry at all about. I haven't seen it recently, but as a teen/kid, it would come up pretty often in manga/anime since Asian cultures are a whole highly prioritize being "proper". Doing it excessively can be a detrimental fault. Again, I fully respect (and agree with the mindset/effort/sincerity), but I will not directly address it because it is something in the past already.

    If you guys stick around, we just have to learn more about each other's personalities, biases, etc. As a whole, the discussions will be beneficial, but trying to understand the opposite perspective minimizes the negative. This is why I try to explain thoroughly the major points/analogies because we should agree on 99+% of things (again established context, but life/morals as a whole; individual differences seem bigger than reality because of excessively focusing on the petty details constantly). I will always do my best to be as objective as possible, and getting more of a "story" based explanation literally builds a better picture in my mind. Most people are visual learners, so those that read my posts without a negative bias can get the "picture" I'm trying to convey much more readily.

    Since you guys are much more literal...of course no one is perfect. But because 80% of the puzzle is already in place, every legitimate fan should be 80% on the right track for any speculation. Which is exactly why the discussions are dying down as a whole since everyone can already see a majority of what's coming up.
    I'm going to start skipping things because I think the above should clarify a majority of your responses based on what I quickly browsed through. As for this point, he is the epitome of currently shown kenbunshoku. Considering he still fears for his life against Big Mom (who is a slow and almost stupid fighter based on the action shown in WCI, which is why people began to underestimate Yonkou, which is exactly why I make such a big deal about WCI B.S. because he negatively changed the content to have many major discrepancies just to create a somewhat rational explanation for the mess he created; again, taking the broad view helps create the reference points to correctly analyze the isolated incident with no direct references; As a whole, the arc still follows a majority of the trends/patterns Oda sticks to). We ALL know Katakuri is much weaker than Yonkou/Admiral.

    Of course power levels and all capabilities are not 100% linear. However, there is a very strong correlation of improvements/higher capabilities. This again goes back to the simplicity of the series. Oda only has a few major categories to power-up: physical capabilities (already close to a max/plateau in my bias), fruit abilities, haki, technology, and regional "specialties". For most people, haki is the only thing that will astronomically change (Luffy is the likely only exception to get his awakening). But this is where the others will benefit from Vegapunk.

    As for the other stuff, I think the aspect on broad picture/vs. exact/literal should clarify. I can state exactly what my bias says each person/exact reference relates to. I literally don't have the time to do so. Plus, painting a picture (that has to be willingly interpreted), does the job much more efficiently and effectively.
     
  7. Yuuzume

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    @Seiryu

    1) The view that meat seems more luxurious than any other kind of food is not what I would classify as a cultural difference because it's not something I'd say is exclusive to Japan.In any case,any such small detail that may be tailored to suit people who are familiar with Japanese culture tends to simply make the series seem more familiar to those people rather than resulting in holding out vital information from the other readers.

    2) You say that @Kia and me are too literal by looking at the details and not the big picture,but isn't it just us not bypassing the small details to look only at the big picture,as the big picture is made up from those small details after all? While I enjoy looking at the big picture,I also enjoy looking at the unique way of each person connects the dots that are the already established facts and even the unique way that people view certain dots that are still unspecified.It's those small things that make up in the bigger picture in the end.However,if one of those details contradicts an already established fact,then it's like overwriting said fact.Haki has been shown to run out after excessive use.That fact explains why people aren't shown having kenbunshoku activated all the time (with Katakuri being the lead example) as much as it explains why not all fights between busoshoku users after the time skip didn't include two fully darkened people fighting by having the entirety of their bodies coated in busoshoku haki.Only busoshoku haki specialists like Vergo and Pica have been shown to utilize that method in battle,and even they don't have it activated all the time.Because of that was possible,why wouldn't Vergo be utilizing busoshoku haki at all times to defend against surprise attacks? It's for the same reason why most busoshoku users usually coat only parts of their bodies,because they're a finite amount of haki energy they can utilize before it runs out.Looking at the big picture is fine,but I'd rather also look at the small details that are the facts that make that big picture up.Still,I can't say that I'm not surprised that you would describe the taking of the small details as being too literal.After all,those small details are the facts that have already been established by Oda,and isn't Oda's tendency to not overlook those small details and connect them properly throughout all these years to create the big picture that we see today the same trait that you appreciate and give emphasis to in the disclaimer in your signature?

    3) I've said this before but I certainly don't hold the view that Oda is "G-oda" or anything of the sort.As far as I'm concerned,I give the series the credit it due and it has certainly earned all the respect and admiration it holds today.Oda has taken many readers by surprise by presenting the unexpected numerous times and he has not sacrificed any attention to the small details to do so and has properly connected them together so far.Regardless of what Oda will continue to do,the series he has created has earned the right for me to believe that it can still take us by surprise and can still continue to connect the small details with each other.

    4) Katakuri being afraid of Big Mom is quite logical actually.He thrives against opponents with precise attacks while Big Mom also has attacks like the flames from Prometheus that can attack a whole area and would be impossible for him to avoid regardless of foresight.Furthermore,despite his strength,Big Mom during normal times has impenetrable skin and endurance fight are not the specialty of fighter like Katakuri.As far as overall fighting prowess goes,he may not be of Yonko level (I wouldn't say Admiral level,especially against Kizaru.And especially against Teach if he didn't have the quake fruit' area attacks),but his kenbunshoku level is certainly up to par with them,if not higher.So as far as kenbunshoku goes,he's still a prime example.
     
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  8. Kia

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    #228 Kia, Dec 13, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2018
    And I’m finally going to get back to you guys on this, my apologies for the delay. Hopefully this isn’t too painful to read or too irrelevant. ^_^

    What @Yuuzume says is essentially what I was trying to get across originally, yes. As I stated, I didn’t feel attacked. I simply felt that the response was unclear as things weren’t being addressed. What I believe I got from you, @Seiryu in response to my query was that the cultural differences were not about Haki itself but Japanese martial arts or Japanese culture. It’s honestly unclear to which you were referring as you seemed to be conflating the two as being one in the same. Not every person in Japan is practitioner of martial arts. So I’ve reread your responses and I’ve come to this conclusion: you’ve stated that the differences are that of Japanese culture because Oda is writing specifically to a Japanese audience. However, your examples and specifics as applied to Haki are solely to Japanese martial arts. Thus, allow me to continue. Not all members of Japanese society are practitioners of martial arts. It is true that the unification of Japan under Tokugawa caused a great change in Japanese warrior arts, transforming them from practical arts to those of peacetime. By the late Meiji period they eventually became budō (-dō in this context being a spiritual/martial path or way). This is more of a focus on the martial/spiritual path than the combative side. Whereas previously there had always been some spiritual component to the martial arts (harken unto the tengu and its association with the spiritually-charged yamabushi for a simple example), the budō focused more on martial ways to the point that some criticisms arose from their contemporary swordsmen. Some, like Yamada Ippūsai, implemented other items that became part of the new budō (like severe shinai training, use of bōgu, and in other systems sport-like competitions). Alas, I digress. Budō (or bugei or bujutsu) came about as a result of the unification of Japan. When stating that budō is a way, it is meant that it is a path, a means of living, a method of shaping oneself in the world. It is spiritual educational training and more. The aim? of which is to achieve dō or rather the mind would be made pure, immovable and not disturbed by the non-essentials of the outside world, according to Zen Master Takuan Soho, who used the terms: makoto (stainless mind), fudoshin (immovable mind), meijin (master of Dō form), mushin no shin (mind unconscious of itself). I’ll get back to this specific point later as it is relevant to the Haki discussion. There are Taoist, Buddhist (Zen and Tantric) and Confucianist principles incorporated as well. I’d argue that many modern Japanese martial arts/ways share this common budō source considering the etymology and history. As the martial arts in Japan do share these same spiritual influences that the larger culture has, it is no surprise that some overlap in ideology occurs, particularly with regard to notions such as courtesy (reigi and teinei) as has been established in the literature. For there to be an universal understanding amongst Japanese readers with regards to the Haki issue is unlikely based upon the martial arts tenant for two reasons: 1. As I’ve stated not all persons in Japan practice martial arts 2. Even amongst the martial arts, they have different spiritual basis some being Zen Buddhist, some Tantric, some Taoist, etc it changes the perspectives ever so slightly within the ryu on where your focus should be on how you practice. Should one have a goal? Should one be completely selfless, etc? The answers to these questions would fundamentally change one’s practice, mindset and approach. In conclusion inasmuch as Japanese martial arts are derived from a variety of spiritual paths and comprise the principles of courtesy and respect that are shared with the culture at large, there are overlaps but again, these are varied even amongst the various types of practices. As such, there is no universal stance within them let alone amongst the general population.

    To relate this to the Haki discussion, in our examples, wherein we’ve been citing “oh at the master Haki level, you can/can’t be distracted” and then throwing real world rebuttals at one another. Well, I conceded the typing point as a mastery issue. However, I’m going to cite Master Takuan Soho right now because he states that it’s the non-essentials that will not distract you. Thus, if there’s a life threatening situation or a danger at hand or anything else essential to living, (if you’re starving or dying of thirst, or even simply need/want sating, that means food and water) it will cause an issue. This is real life chakra/ki/chi/skill use discussion of course but the point remains.

    Furthermore, having taken the time to address that, I suppose I should actually go ahead and state that the point is still, all of that aside, nothing in what’s been presented supersedes what Oda has shown to be true. He has set guidelines in his creation. I go by those guidelines. Shanks’ instance was already addressed; Oda was forced to make a change but the nature of the change was up to him, thus the integrity of the scene stands since the artistic/writing choice was ultimately his. It’s still a good illustration of the distraction principle, in my opinion. As well as a statement on his character. Alas, we can agree to disagree. Yes, there are instincts, yes those instincts could be the precursors of Haki. But I think that to say that the instincts are Haki itself would be contradictory since Oda has stated Haki runs out and the instincts are on all the time. I get that in real life when you sense something it’s because you’re communicating with the universe and there’s no distinction between your physical body and your spiritual one, that would make it more akin to chakra/Ki/Haki. However, in a fictional universe, I go with the rules generated by the author. That author being a member of the culture in question, it would seem that the cultural tenants have already been addressed and then supervised as need be when/if a more stringent rule is in place as is the case here.

    @Seiryu I’m not going to quote all of your different posts, please excuse me because I’m trying not to make this anymore of a text wall than it’s turning out to be but I’ll try to summarize here. It seems that there’s several places where you seem to be conflating the martial arts definitions/understandings of Ki/chakra/Haki with Japanese/Asian culture in general. I tried to address this earlier and, as I’m not a member of the societies, I don’t claim to speak for them any more than I think you can (I honestly don’t know your connection to them). However, if I’m not mistaken, you’ve claimed to be an outsider with some exposure, specifically martial arts and I don’t know what else. The point being that, even if it is true for martial artists, it’s not necessarily true for all Asians, even if it were true for all Asians, it’s not necessarily true for One Piece. To whit, Haki is not on at all times. I concede that Kaido has mastered kenbunshoku. He was still hit in a surprise attack by Luffy in his dragon form. Luffy still managed to surprise attack Katakuri several times. Yes, Kaido can efficiently utilize busuoshoku Haki as well and has that possibly mastered, I’m not sure. I don’t see the ability of Vergo to know that Law was going to attack him as incredibly predictive. Law all but announced that he was going to do so. There was a monologue basically. No kenbunshoku Haki was required.
    70B5FA47-C4B9-40DA-B6A3-992B10783365.jpeg AAEF6488-2BCD-4B6B-827E-C17D0D7BDEF1.jpeg
    .


    I’m going to have to agree with @Yuuzume here. I look at the details because it is the details that make up the larger picture. One cannot exist without the other. As you in fact pointed out, great care is taken in the details to build the story so to ignore them would be disrespectful, in my opinion. Just because other authors don’t make distinctions certain things doesn’t mean that they don’t exist in the One Piece universe. Oda has stated that armament is Busoushoku, observational is kenbunshoku and the power to rule is Haoshoku. It’s not for us to make a judgment call on the delineations as being necessary or not because it’s his universe. He can make those decisions. Obviously we can have our opinions but we don’t get to overwrite the reality of what’s truth in the One Piece world based on the laws of this universe or our opinions thereof. At least that’s my take on it. If one wants to change the rules of the One Piece world, that’s why fan fiction exists. Otherwise, we accept what is written. That’s not to say that we don’t use our brains, but we shouldn’t contradict the author. To have Haki be active at all times, this includes classifying ‘animal instincts’ by the real world rules, would go against what Oda has stated in his universe. If he had never had Haki run out, then I wouldn’t have a problem with it. If he hadn’t continued to do so, with the protagonist, no less, then I could write it off as a fluke, maybe. However, this is clearly a tenant of Haki in the One Piece world. To beat a dead horse and tick some more boxes since you like to compare similar concepts in other action manga, it’s consistent with chakra in Naruto, which is a finite resource as well
    upload_2018-12-12_16-31-39.jpeg
    I’d even argue that it’s this which distinguishes humans from divinity. While we have a connection to the energy of the universe or an ability to connect to it, our energy is finite. Our spirit is finite. That’s beyond the scope of this discussion on Haki in One Piece but nevertheless big picture and all that.

    @Seiryu, When you speak of Oda’s morals changing and utilize Pudding as an example, I do not see it that way. She seems more akin to someone who is almost mentally ill than a morally grey character. She’s not got multiple personality disorder like Cavendish but definitely has been scarred by her abusive past and might have ODD as a result. Other than that, she’s a girl in love who wants to be seen for who she is and not as a monster. Of course, that’s my take on it. I could be wrong. Speaking of Oda, just to clarify yet again, I definitely do not deify him or any author. Even my favorite novelist has continuity errors—we’re all human.

    I appreciate the additional examples of linguistic/cultural differences. They show information on other characters (that I actually got the first bits of already) just because to me they were obvious. Maybe I had enough language expose to get it, who knows and not the point. Alas, exposition like that is helpful though it’s not surprising or new information, as contextually speaking, it’s only logical that meat would be expensive based upon the geographical area of the country and how they would need to obtain such meat in cities, especially. There’s a reason that island nations subsist mainly on seafood. Again, it depends on who the audience is when we’re speaking of knowledge/exposure. Thank you again for sharing. It’s nice to know to what you were referencing. ^_^

    I can see how generalizing would allow one to state that all instincts/observations are Haki but that would be wiping away the details of the works themselves as well as the variety that exists in the world. Even in Black Clover, there’s a distinction between when Asta senses his enemies initially using his heightened senses/instincts and when he learns to sense the flow of ki from his squad captain. They distinguish between Ki and magical energy as well. Just saying as another example. While there are similarities across many cultures and subcultures for many ideas, the differences that exist, however minute, provide richness and depth that shouldn’t be ignored even while we celebrate the similarities. Of course, that’s my take on things, your mileage may vary and I’m not here to change anyone’s mind. I simply want to understand people’s perspectives.

    Anyways, I’ve failed at not making this a wall of text so I’m not going to go into go into further detail (this is what happens when I take too long and get behind on replying). Allow me to state that I agree with @Yuuzume’s statements on the abilities of master level Kenbunshoku Haki and its applicability to characters. Without adequate other skills and appropriate matchups, it’s not an automatic fight ended. Also, I saw no evidence of Jack, nor Luffy having it. There was probably something else that I wanted to address but I honestly can’t recall at this point so I’ll say that I’m done (finally, right?!). That said, thank you for your time and patience if you made it this far. ^_^

    Works referenced (I think this is all I ended up using, though I read more)

    Cross-Cultural Perspectives on Means to Personal Growth

    M. KIYOTA & H. KINOSHITA (Eds), 1990. Tokyo, Nihon University


    Hall, D. A. (2012). Encyclopedia of Japanese martial arts. Kodansha USA


    Young DA. Bowing to Your Enemies: Courtesy, Budō, and Japan. Philosophy East & West. 2009;59(2):188-215


    Hansen W. Roald Knutsen, Tengu: The Shamanic and Esoteric Origins of the Japanese Martial Arts. Asian Ethnology. 2012;(1):140
     
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  9. Seiryu

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    Big picture wise, I think I've made my point though. I could continue to ramble off the numerous cultural references that dominated the first 7-10ish years of the series.
    No, the balance of not requiring every single detail to be spelled out is what I'm getting at. For our discussions, the petty details have to be bantered with back and forth. I don't think I have to expand on how important the Japanese culture is important to get extra insight on the plot (that's the whole reason behind translator's notes in the first place).

    If we are simply discussing the established content, which we should agree on 99-100% of all things, the broad/big picture should be all that is necessary. To oversimplify all of these pages of back and forth, we always fully agree with each other on the established content. And of course personal biases is what allows for large discrepancies on future content. With Oda's original writing style, this made for boring discussion boards like us because he literally made it to have one set outcome that slowly becomes more and more apparent.

    He is now force-feeding unplanned drama to compensate for this, but the cost is loopholes and contradictions to previous content/context. It is still too early for most readers to pick up on it, but I'm definitely not alone in this general concept (same thing in that big picture wise people will readily agree with the concept I am talking about and of course personal biases will make them differ to potentially completely disagree with parts of my bias). I have absolutely no doubts that both of you are more than analytical enough to see the crash and burn that will happen if this trend continues. If you don't want to take my old-fut experience on that, that's 100% your right. Being naive on how crappy parts >>> outnumber the good things in life is not the best way to live one's life in my opinion. Personally, I'd much rather prevent/avoid crappy stuff as much as possible. Being open-minded and informed are universally beneficial traits.
    And I would point out that haki overuse has only been shown with Luffy (who has little to no kenbunshoku use prior to WCI B.S.). We have no gauge on how much "haki energy" kenbunshoku uses. I would again counter with Fujitora. He has to have constant usage if he doesn't have subordinates around. Oda isn't stupid. In real life, our eye muscles don't require massive energy to function (same for all of our other senses, some which technically don't require any muscle movement to operate). So both the real life and manga will follow common sense/laws of nature that minimal energy is required. This is relative to the massive amounts of ATP required to activate muscles. Thus, the common sense aspect should answer the Vergo/Pica aspect (which is the exact same thing Luffy does constantly in Gear 4th).

    I'm going to bring it up again, but Oda specifically wrote about taking at least 5 minutes to thoroughly read each chapter and essentially "figure out the answer for yourself". That of course isn't what the always politically correct Oda wrote, but again we should be able to almost universally agree that is the gist of what he's getting at. He is spending way too much time having to coordinate the anime, movies/specials, databooks, promotional crap, etc. This has only grown every year. Oda was able to work himself to the point of hospitalization because he tried to keep his same obsessive work ethic on the manga while adding on all of these other new responsibilities. Oda's health should come first, but unfortunately the manga is having lower quality as a result. Thankfully, stopping the unplanned B.S. is a simple solution to all of that.

    Again, I completely agree that being inquisitive is a highly beneficial trait. People naturally have different biases on what is "necessary", but Oda himself is requesting people to assume that if he paints something to look, sounds, and act like a duck that he isn't being a jerk to make it a giraffe in the end. I hate to use the analogy, but it's the only thing I can think of right now...but the "annoying" child that always asks "why?" about everything comes to mind. There is a point that they have to be able to think for themselves. Of course it is bad parenting to not answer relevant/important questionings, but the realistic approach is to create an interesting/satisfactory white lie.

    Every culture naturally emphasizes respect, but no language I've been introduced to even comes close to the keigo/honorifics of Japanese. So even though the "big picture" concept should be universal (Oda's definitely gotten better at this over the years by having to verbalize the details of every text box or show every detail, which is probably burning him out faster), cultural context does make a huge difference on the "petty details".
    Again, we 100% agree on the previously established content/context, but do you truly think no one will ever match Katakuri's kenbunshoku in the rest of the series? Do you really think every single elite of the elite fighter is only going to have only maxed out stats for defense, durability, power, etc.?

    Just based on his trends (ultimate powers, like the ultimate devil fruits in terms of destructive power, only are presented among Yonkou/admirals), Katakuri's kenbunshoku still might be a step or two lower then "mastered" or maxed out kenbunshoku.
    I'm best training with boxing and Muay Thai, so this is definitely not true. I've taken Judo for a little while, but that's the only Japanese martial art I've studied.
    And anyone can relate that enough mental fortitude or the right situation can override this. Naturally, being human means imperfections in likely everything we do. Mastery is when this can astronomically be minimized and in many cases prevented. That is universal to any skill in any culture, and in my personal bias all aspects of human life. Most people don't want to put in the work to do it.

    I'm out of time, so I'll have to get back to the rest later.
     
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  10. Yuuzume

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    #230 Yuuzume, Dec 15, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2018
    Big picture wise,I'm going to repeat the same thing I said before since it still applies in my opinion.Whatever differences result from cultural differences only have the effect of making the manga more/less familiar to the reader by respectively comprehending/not comprehending the intent behind the details that produce those differences.However,whether those details end up being puns or the understanding as to why notions such as thanking someone are given such emphasis,it doesn't make a difference as far as the information that is available so far through the series is concerned.In general,haki included (since this is the topic here),a Japanese reader may feel more familiar when reading One Piece because it entails details,like puns,the use of suffixes,etc than a non Japanese reader who is not familiar with Japanese culture,but it doesn't in any way mean that there will be pieces of vital information regarding the components of the series that will be available solely to Japanese readers.That is to say,any difference brought about by the cultural differences is not really relevant to the haki discussion at hand and would probably not bring about any changes when pieces of information about the series are concerned.

    As per the point I was making above,any information that cultural differences would provide out of certain details to people who are familiar with Japanese culture isn't plot related.Instead,it's miscellaneous information like puns,Japanese customs and traditions (use of suffixes) and possible insights on Japanese culture,not the plot of One Piece.Any piece of information related to the plot is directly conveyed to any non Japanese reader through translation.Translator's notes are needed because certain of the aforementioned parts sometimes don't make sense if directly translated,like puns.Much like it wouldn't make sense if some english idioms and saying were translated to another language,sometimes that's the case with the Japanese version.On the other hand,any piece of information related to the plot can be directly translated like any normal sentence.

    Now let me mention the small details.You say that we seem to agree on the established content,but your opinion on the big picture contradicts that suggestion.You say that you focus on the big picture and make an estimation of what will happen down the line in the series,yet that estimation contains parts that in my opinion logically contradict respective part of the already established content that you say we agree on.And yet when I point out those details,you refer to them as Oda's changes and disregard them,seemingly because they contradict the aforementioned estimations you've made on the series.You've said we agree on the established content other than those changes,but those changes are part of the established content as well,regardless of whether they match any person's estimations.Whether Oda had other original plans and changed them or not is something I don't claim to know,but any changes that he may or may not have made should be treated as established content and are,in my opinion,logically acceptable.The fact that people make theories about One Piece while relying on the small details that is the established content is a privilege that the series has definitely earned by properly connecting said small details.Until such a time that Oda disregards such a small detail himself and sacrifices it for the sake of forcefully changing the content to suit his tastes,no reader can disregard the small details that he has put forth so far,regardless of whether or not they agree with any reader's estimations.You say that he has created loopholes and contradictions,but I think he has done so so far.As I said before,any changes that he may or may not have made,are logically acceptable and don't contradict previous content.

    You say that @Kia and I are "being naive on how crappy parts >>> outnumber the good things in life". In this context,are the "crappy parts" the already established content by Oda himself,who is the author of the series and the "good things" simply the estimations you've made for what's going to take place in the series in the future? So you're calling us naive because we don't disregard the small details put forth by the author himself,who by the way has not contradicted those small details himself so far,in order to believe your estimation of the future content of the series,which is based on what you think will happen and disregards the small details that Oda has put forth so far? If that's the case,then I,personally,am going to have to disagree with that statement.The series has been going on until now with Oda taking into account all the small details he's put forth himself and he has been continuing until now without him contradicting any of them.If you want to call me giving Oda the benefit of the doubt rather than condemning him of something that he still hasn't done naive,then you're of course free to do so.However,as far as I am concerned,Oda has earned the benefit of the doubt by taking into account the small details that he has established so far and by creating big picture after big picture without contradicting any of those small details.As I've said before,I view Oda simply as an author,so whether or not he can do so in the future is not something I claim to know.Regardless,until such a thing happens,he has earned the right for me to think that it won't happen.That is to say,I'm not blindly believing in Oda,I'm simply giving the series the credit it's due to.I would rather not arbitrarily make crappy parts out of good things when it's not called for.You say that you focus on the big picture rather than the small parts,but those small parts have been established by the painter (author),so disregarding them and overwriting them to paint a picture of your own is the same as painting over parts that the painter has drawn themselves.Any small details,which don't contradict the facts established by Oda,is of course up to the person and in that case,I appreciate both the small details and the big picture.However,when the small details contradict the one established by Oda,I don't think it's proper to disregard the ones set by Oda and move on to the big picture regardless of that.As for being open minded and informed being good traits,I agree,and I would say that giving Oda the benefit of the doubt and the series the credit its due,regardless of any personal estimations,was me doing my best to be open minded on the subject.

    What you refer to as "little to no kenbunshoku use" is essentially on the same level that every kenbunshoku user so far,other than Katakuri (and possibly Kaido) has been shown to use,so no,I wouldn't call it trivial.Much like busoshoku haki drains the user's haki reserves faster than using one's muscles drains their stamina,in my opinion,it's quite logical to think that using kenbunshoku us similarly more taxing to one's haki reserves than using one's eyes is to one's stamina.Not to mention the mental drain that accompanies kenbunshoku haki usage,since the user presumably perceives the information acquired through kenbunshoku haki as a thought/mental image.So while it may be said that kenbunshoku is less taxing than busoshoku,it's not the same as using one's eyes and can similarly drain one of their haki reserves if used for a prolonged time.

    As for whether or not Oda can continue to properly connect the small details of the series,I am of course open to the possibility of him not being to do so.That possibility has been existent from the beginning of the series after all.However,Oda has continued to connect the small details time and time again,so he has earned the right for us to think that he is capable of continuing to do so until the end of the series unless proven otherwise.To use your example,anything that he made sound and look like a duck so far,has turned out to be a duck.

    I'm not saying that no one can ever match Katakuri in the whole series.One example I've already given is the possibility of Kaido and another one that wouldn't surprise me is Shanks.What I'm saying is that I don't believe it'll be as widespread as you describe and that it's also not as overpowering as you describe.On that note,I'd ask you if you think that every elite of the elite fighter will end up having Katakuri's level of mastery in kenbunshoku haki on top of having skills like extraordinary power/defense/speed/etc.I believe that not all will,and unless proven otherwise in the future,one existing example of it so far is big Mom.

    Perhaps it is indeed so,but I still don't think that all future characters will possess equal or higher level of mastery than Katakuri,that would probably be making light of mastered kenbunshoku haki too much.

    As much as one tried to suppress it,certain situations can bring out people's instincts regardless.
     
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  11. Kia

    Kia
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    @Seiryu my post was written/researched in bulk before you began to use Asian cultures to qualify your statements since for the preponderance of our conversations you’ve simply stated “cultural differences”, “martial arts” and “Japanese audience”. Thus, the conclusion that I drew (obviously erroneously) was that your martial arts basis was Japanese because that would be the most specifically relevant since your statements were so simultaneously strongly worded and vague. However, I’ll claim culpability for not fully awaiting verification before moving forward. My apologies for the incorrect analysis of your foundation. That being said, the fact that the martial arts basis that you have is not purely Japanese—in fact it is mostly not Japanese—serves to further highlight my point regarding the lack of ability to purely and adequately apply cultural precepts of martial arts to Japanese society. Your martial arts experience is just as relevant to the Haki discussion as my spiritual experience of chakra/Ki/ha is in this case as it doesn’t come from the host culture either.

    I’d like to thank @Yuuzume for spelling out that which I tried, albeit more subtly, to state earlier with regards to the differences in big and little picture views. I do not believe that we are in agreement about the big picture items because you keep claiming things like we all agree that there are Haki contradictions per the earlier discussion and that was not the conclusion of that discussion. Point of fact, the conclusion was that on a few points we decided that there wasn’t enough information to conclusively determine whether there was an inconsistency; that Ace’s case makes sense because he wasn’t portrayed as being proficient in Haki, merely having unlocked it. However, if data shows up that further clarifies the vague points (Akainu at Marineford, the Haki wall and similar use of Busoshoku by Rayleigh), then a decision will be made at that time. Furthermore, if information comes to light showing Ace as proficient in Haki more so than was shown in the novel, then an inconsistency exists. Otherwise, it is as stated. @Jawahib and @Yuuzume can correct me if I’m misspeaking. Especially the former as his last words that I recall on the subject were akin to that he was content so long as we were open to the possibility of inconsistencies. Moving on, we then began to address with you the question of whether Oda was being inconsistent in his darkening of Busoshoku, as you stated that he switched back to not adding the darkening, if I recall correctly as well as questions of kenbunshoku being always on.

    This has led us to where we are now. You claim that Fujitora’s heightened senses and ability to navigate the world are automatically and always kenbunshoku being active at all times but that would mean that every blind person whose other senses compensate for their blindness has it in the real world. I do not know that this is the case because it’s about more than just what your five (or four remaining in this case) senses can tell you. There was an excellent scene in the most recent episode where Rayleigh is training Luffy in kenbunshoku and he tells him that every attack has an intent. It’s about sensing that intent. That’s not a thing that your sense of sight, smell, taste, hearing, or touch can do. It’s about spirit/heart and this is beyond the scope of the normal five senses and requires Haki. That’s unlike navigating through the world or sensing air currents moving when fly, parasite string or errant ball is coming your way. But wait, Fujitora can hear the voices of the people, that’s clearly kenbunshoku. Yes, he “listens” in when it’s important and he wants to know what’s going on. He could’ve listened to Luffy’s true thoughts during their clash but he asked instead. Hence the shocked laughter. If it was always on, he’d have heard Luffy thinking it already. Or that’s how I see it. Obviously your interpretation has been stated to be different but I wanted to point out another view.

    This doesn’t quite work for me for a few reasons, as I believe I’ve stated previously.
    1. Oda’s definition matters 2. If instincts and Haki/Ki were the same thing in Japanese/Asian culture then other manga wouldn’t distinguish between them as well. I cited Black Clover and will now attempt to find the actual parts of the manga itself. So they show Asta’s reactions to mana/great reflexes as instincts early on then teach him to feel Ki and move on from there as a separate thing.
    E3FBE51F-5B18-4BDE-B3C9-EE7948F638FF.jpeg 6E7E85D9-10CF-4EAC-9364-9BC7E585C3A8.jpeg 5A3D75AD-3D5B-4B1E-8270-8E22836E8E86.jpeg E9ECAEA1-662F-47C0-8DDB-D37A6F1F785C.jpeg 9277EF4C-4FFF-42EE-A61A-6EF4AA77AA5B.jpeg E4B0841A-6438-47D8-85CA-CC1900F55521.jpeg 139E1795-E4D2-4AC1-A080-D95F8103085E.jpeg

    If we’re supposed to be reading closely and carefully, doesn’t that mean that the details matter? I know that I’ve been guilty of missing a few by posting in the chapter thread after only a first read in my excitement and I own that. That being said, I do reread, zoom and examine. Hitetsu’s character design for example, he’s dressed as a yamabushi with the mask/face and wings of a tengu plus he’s a sword smith. So he’s an almost perfect embodiment of old spiritual ways and thus who better to have a great grade cursed sword? Sorry, not part of the Haki discussion per se, though cultural relevance was introduced to the conversation in multiple areas. But as I was saying, the details matter which means that seeing the parts that don’t match any preconceived notions or expectations that one may have developed in reading the series is critical to establishing a proper big picture. To selectively leave out, dismiss or disregard details which were put in by the author in order to form or support a particular slant is poor logic, poor form and inappropriate. In fact, earlier, you stated (and seemed upset) that I was “specifically picking pages that don't have the key quotes.” in regards to Level 6 Impel Down inmates when in actuality I was simply in the wrong chapters because my memory and search had failed me at that time. So I could be wrong, but I believe that we should be able to agree on the general premise. The illusion of agreement is further fostered by your signature. It simply seems to be the application of it in this instance where there are issues. You go on to restate that he said to read the chapter for at least 5 minutes then go on to say that we should agree on the big picture and then this.
    I cannot tell you what you know so I won’t tell you that you’re wrong. What I will do is inform you that Korean actually has more levels of honorifics than Japanese as it applies them to both nouns and verbs at multiple levels. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_honorifics Please note that either way, the very fact that you feel the need to point out such specificity in cultural traits supports the argument that details matter. Furthermore, the list of things that are truly universal across cultures and within the human condition is so small as to be not really worth bringing into this discussion. There have been suggestions but amongst those lists, most items are contested. At this point, after colonialism, globalization, etc. it’s so hard to state what is truly part and parcel of original cultures and what was forced upon them or adapted.


    As for Katakuri being significantly weaker than a yonko and being afraid of Big Mom. My interpretation is that his fear is for his siblings and their well-being, when we see him being distressed. I believe that he serves her out of loyalty and familial affection. Perosperos and the other family members were shown to be afraid for their own lives but I think his concern was for them. He saw that he couldn’t save his brother Opera’s life nor stop her hunger pangs and that distressed him but I didn’t see him as one who was cowering or worried about more than the safety of his family as he’s deigned to be the protector. I’m not claiming that he’s omnipotent or anything but that was my take on the fear. This is developed more in the anime as the manga leaves it quite brief.
    4AC6739F-1E91-4715-B06B-280709048296.jpeg 0B4224DA-E820-4AEC-84A3-D1E009D8A267.jpeg

    Even in the elaboration, there isn’t much in the way of distress/fear expressed from him so to claim he fears her is a stretch to me. Furthermore, though she seems easily manipulated and quite childlike, she is still physically formidable (impenetrable skin at this point) and in possession of a powerful devil fruit. Furthermore, even when in the midst of her rampage and seeming manipulation, she had enough presence of mind to know that she had to either find the cake with the Straw Hats or kill Perosperos for lying to her.
    CE93EBA5-3A6F-4ABC-A845-EE946E8DA043.jpeg
    The Whole Cake Island Arc showed that she is a multifaceted character as opposed to merely an evil glutton as she was presented earlier. It highlighted her physical strengths, her mental thought processes to include the source of her empire building dreams, the ways in which she uses both the fathers of her offspring and the offspring themselves, (there’s more but I’ll move on). It also shows her weaknesses such as the damage she suffered as a child and what this means for her now. It shows the dangers of her appetite in terms of establishing and maintaining relationships and how that created the aforementioned weakness. If anything, showing how an abandoned child turned into a yonko who built an empire and holds onto it despite her obvious handicap of an insatiable and unpredictable appetite is commendable writing. It allows one to see that even bad things can have good. It shows that good intentions aren’t everything and can be warped. The exchange of lifespan to live in Totto Land is an example of worldly trade off that is directly associated with this yonko. Showing that a combination of weakness exploitation, kismet and collaboration can cause disastrous impacts to even the mighty—which she is shown to be, is an important outcome of the WCI arc, in my opinion. All of the yonko have quirks and weaknesses, they are none of them perfect. I don’t believe that Oda will create a perfect character because there isn’t a perfect person. Haki will continue to be presented as it has been, developing in strength commiserate with the levels of the characters and complementing their skills but not to the point of excess or perfection as I stated. Everyone has a weakness and there seems to be balance. Each character thus far has been written such that they’ve found a way to work with their own skill set, such as it is. That doesn’t mean that they’ve got max powers, Haki, etc. It simply means that whatever they have, they wield as well as they can. That’s where the creativity of the author comes into play for the variety (he’s got the minds of each character to delve into and find out how they developed themselves). We can literally have a plethora of options remaining. I look forward to it. ^_^
     
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  12. Jawahib

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    Pssh I'm always content :P

    Though yeah I'm happy with everything you've said here. If Ace is ever shown to use Haki at any level that implies he can activate it at will - even at an elemental level, then we have a huge believability issue that is pretty much the size of a full-fledged inconsistency/plot-hole, since the only way to justify him using it Marineford is to say he forgot he could use it - especially considering how useful it would have been against Akainu. I do not find it believable by any means that the Ace we saw on Marineford had the capacity to use Haki at will.

    A quick disclaimer before this next part: I have no idea what the actual larger current discussion is about because I, a huge hypocrite, don't wanna read all the text walls.
    However, I'll round off my perception of the older discussion we had about Haki's believability by saying that I personally am certain with full confidence that Haki was shoe-horned into the story of One Piece after the CP9 saga, and being able to see the author pulling the strings in a "please don't notice this" manner has quite a significant impact on my immersion into the world and thus story of One Piece.
     
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  13. Seiryu

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    This is where I disagree (since I think we both agree we mutually agree on each other's biases for a great majority of this specific aspect). If the information was not going to affect how people interpret the series, why do translators even bother providing translators notes? When certain key details come up, that intricate differences can make astronomical differences.

    I'll just point out K-F (who made the lack of translating "nakama" mainstream). There is no English equivalent for someone you 100% trust your life with. Oda takes it to a completely different "manga-level" (kids in the same club have "baseball-nakama", "art-nakama", etc.). Yes, the general, big picture concepts may not always need this to be properly conveyed, but there are obviously exceptions to that.
    I think the above aspect should answer this. I think I'll get a much clearer view on your perspective by asking a question? Do you think Luffy/Kidd moving 500+ blocks while cuffed with kairouseki contradicts ALL previous kairoseki scenes? I 100% think that Law and Kidd should be able to do that much from a physical standpoint (they are astronomically physically better than 99% of the world currently). However, it was NEVER shown previously. It is a current contradiction, but has to be either stated or shown as an established pattern.

    For discussions on petty details, we have to operate on the established "rules" Oda is putting out. If not, every crazy opinion is valid to a certain extent. And this is exactly why Oda is going to down a crap hole if he keeps making B.S. unplanned drama. He is only going to create more plot holes and inconsistencies that everyone will be able to pick apart. My interpretation is that you think Oda still has 100% of his $*** together, when he does not. It is small, but a detail like forgetting the division for Shiryuu almost never happened (I think we had one around the time he was hospitalized and a few completely insignificant details brought up in early SBS).

    So similarly as above, do you think Oda has 100% control over the plot and context right now? If so, I can completely drop this entire discussion because it will eventually only give me a headache. Plus, just reading through, we've already whittled down to the basis of our respective biases. From my perspective (excluding the lack of planning on haki that this main discussion stems from; that’s probably a great point to emphasize since it is based on nothing more than a general concept of course there is going to be various biases. How Oda controlled and prevented incorrect biases for 20.5 years is why I can be so certain with my statements. And I truly think we could try to microanalyze any other part of the 20.5 years of content and come to a mutual resolution because his godly level of planning makes it impossible), the only contextual differences are the recent WCI/Wano Kuni B.S. This is where the 99+% might not seem valid. Other than haki every major aspect of the series should be unquestionable and for the stuff that comes up, we do end up 100% agreeing with each other because of the literary mastery.

    I get the hunch you and @Kia are still in the "honeymoon" phase of liking the series so you are much less likely to have a negative view of Oda/the series.

    Running late so maybe responses and likes eventually...
     
  14. Yuuzume

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    This is a subject you introduced to suggest that there are vital pieces of information in the One Piece series that only Japanese readers can perceive,so I wouldn't say that we agree on the majority of this particular subject since my opinion on this differs,as I'll explain right now.

    Any key information can be directly conveyed through simple translation,as the pieces of information that are conveyed are neutral to all cultures.Take one piece of simple information about One Piece for example: "Devil fruits bestow special abilities to the people who eat them" .Whether it is the english version or the Japanese version,both type of readers will get the same information.On the other hand,things like Japanese puns (which may depend on the characters used to form the words/sentences),jokes or notions like putting emphasis on thanking someone may seem unfamiliar to people who are not familiar with them.That is the purpose of the translators' notes,to make the components that many people may be unfamiliar with as familiar as possible.As far as pure information goes,both parties receive the same pieces of such information.

    A direct translation for the word "nakama" would the word "comrade".As for the meaning of "someone you 100% trust with your life",that's the value of the word on the context of One Piece.To explain what I mean,I'll use the word "friend" as an example.To a person,the word friend may mean "a person with the same interests","a person who one hangs out with",etc.However,to another person,the word that is "friend' may actually be on par with the context of the word "nakama" in One Piece and perhaps even more.If Oda had chosen to use the word friend in the same context that he has been using the word nakama,then that word would have the same worth as nakama right now.That is to say,in my opinion,the value of the word nakama in the One Piece word is a result of being used to describe "people that a person trusts completely and would give their lives for" and it also refers to crew mates (secondary).

    No,I don't think that scene contradicts the previous content.When kairoseki handcuffs were used in the past,the result was that the devil fruit users who were cuffed were unable to manifest their abilities.Did Luffy or Law use their devil fruit abilities while being handcuffed with kairoseki handcuffs? No,they didn't,so I don't see how that is a contradiction in any way as it had the same result as what we've seen in the past when kairoseki handcuffs were used.Ace beat up his guards while being cuffed by kairoseki handcuffs and Marco seemed perfectly normal from a physical standpoint when he was cuffed with kairoseki handcuffs as well.The only results were their devil fruit powers being suppressed,so I don't see how it's a contradiction for Luffy and Kid to have moved around the stone blocks.

    I don't claim to know,hence I don't state,if Oda has 100% control over the context of the series,if his writing style simply leaves the most important parts of the context that follow the series constantly,like haki,vague so as to render them ambiguous and not contradict anything,or if he's simply lucky enough for a contradiction to have not been made so far.For whatever reason,Oda has managed to connect the dots throughout the series properly so far.You refer to the WCI and Wano arcs as B.S but I don't see it that way.Whether or not those arcs are liked or not,or if there are simply only parts of them that people don't like,they didn't contain inconsistencies that contradict previous content.

    Oda may indeed lose track of the context and introduce such an inconsistency someday,that's something I don't claim to know.However,I don't feel like holding Oda responsible for something that hasn't happened and may not happen without a proper reason just because the amount of information to keep track of has increased.I've said it before but the benefit of the doubt is something that the series has earned.You seem to think that I'm simply viewing the series in a more positive light than it deserves,but in my opinion,I'm only giving it the credit its due.

    You've said that Oda's biting off more than he can chew and that that has led to inconsistencies being created.The existence of such inconsistencies is a matter we were discussing previously throughout our conversation and the conclusion was that the instances that you introduced as inconsistencies are,so far,either ambiguous or not inconsistencies.Also,you say that every aspect other than haki is unquestionable,so that leaves no room for there to be any inconsistencies.Whether or not it's intentional,Oda has been connecting the small details so far and not contradicted the said details that he introduced himself.So,since there are no inconsistencies so far,I don't see why I should think that there will definitely be some in the future.As I've said before,I am open to that possibility as well,but I do not want to condemn the series for something that has not happened so far.
     
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  15. Judgement

    Onii-chan of OPF
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    That moment when the walls of text are so elaborate that people refer to a freakin' plethora of sources :tearsofjoy:
     
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  16. Yuuzume

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    Hehehe,I think we're looking at that moment in the rear view mirror by now though.
     
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  17. Kia

    Kia
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    Colour me thorough lol. Thanks for reading (or skimming whichever).
     
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  18. Seiryu

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    Of course I completely agree with this, which is why we should agree on 99+% of established content (I agree with the rationale behind the B.S. since Oda is still trying to make it rational => Toki only being able to travel forward in time or the weird kunoichi being deathly afraid of blades and probably danger in general). It still doesn't eliminate the loopholes that come up when we start having these sorts of detailed discussions.

    I don't think I clarified enough that we should be establishing that we agree on the content first (which should be universal for everything except haki, which is probably still in flux on what exactly it is going to be). We naturally are going to have our individual biases, but the overall pattern is that we inefficiently work backwards (agree on the context last).

    I will completely disagree on the cultural aspect though. Although the concept should be conveyed, the emotional and even rational interpretation can be completely different due to cultural differences. @Kia can probably relate to being viewed as a "haole" (literally foreigner) from most kama'aina (literally people of the land). Despite being some of the most accepting cultures, Hawaii residents just have an irrational positive bias to other kama'aina. Every culture has it to some level, but it is a unique cultural difference that is going to elicit a different emotional response at a minimum. My rationale is going to be different for any haole vs. kama'aina. It is not a negative towards haole, but a greater positive towards kama'aina.

    Even legends or stories will have a similar effect. Even though Pandora's Box is probably very similar to Urashima Tarou and the tamatebako (I didn't pay much attention to mythology in grade school so I don't know the details Pandora's Box), but for Urashima, the contents of the Tamatebako were all of the negative karma of the world. From his curiosity, Urashima made the world a crappier place. The instant aging and loss of a life's worth of fun (which he used up while partying under water) is no where near the balance of negative impact he had on the entire world. Although Hodi was unsuccessful in his plans to ruin Gyojin Island, he similarly is still at a karmic debt to pay off later.

    Even though anyone can comprehend the 99.9% of the context, those petty details do come into play for theories/predictions. So to bring it back to the main discussion, the differing biases is going to play into theories on haki. Again, Oda himself has said he is not going to change the series to not be targeted for a Japanese audience (if you want to look it up, it is a pretty early SBS and probably around the time the international color spread came out [the one with each Mugiwara representing a different country]). So if you want to truly believe not having a Japanese-view on things never comes into play, Oda does not agree by his own words. He is 100% trying to minimize it, which is why there are very few translator's notes recently (of course excluding the complete Japanese reference of Wano Kuni).

    Typing this out, maybe that's a conscious/unconscious reaction to my view in the sense that any non-Japanese proficient (culturally and linguistically vs. ethnically/nationally). I personally have been arguing the entire that that this is not valid in most situations (the 99+% of the time). However, the recent content (I'm including the databooks) is providing support for my view. We will definitely get some answers relatively soon since Oda will probably have to introduce other aspects of haki mastery (I'm referring to Rayleigh and removing the explosive collar). The stereotypes of Kaidou being a meathead will probably mean he too is least proficient with kenbunshoku.
    Not even close. We use the word "friend" all the time. There are different words in Japanese for levels of friend. We have "true friends", "close friends", "work friends", etc. as specific words. Nakama trumps them all in level of closeness. Again, more cultural differences that elicit both emotional and rationale differences based on differing cultural and or life experiences.
    That helps a lot. I can expand on the endurance aspect later (probably just copy-paste the stuff from the chapter thread). Going to attempt to get to the old responses before I have to go.
    But you are more than analytical enough to see the "patterns" and stylistic preferences Oda uses, especially since he uses the same tricks over and over. If you truly think nothing is changing since WCI with how Oda is writing, that is my whole point. 90+% of the long-term fans subconsciously felt the differences. Both you and @Kia had a much more subdued reaction because it is still rational.
    Oda is a old dog trying to learn a new trick on creating a surprise. Rationally, you should understand that it is almost impossible to have a complete surprise if EVERYONE knows what's coming. Again, I truly think you have excessive faith in Oda right now. Is there a chance he figures out some new masterful form to his writing style? Of course, but considering he has done nothing but refine his current methods over 20.5 years (mastery makes it harder to change an integral part of this unconscious pattern). Could a professional athlete learn to do the same thing with their non-dominant hand? Of course, but they'd probably age well past their prime.
    I'll start off by saying I 100% agree with the rationale, but all of the things you are referencing with Luffy's training is the "real life kenbunshoku". It comes up all the time how people sense an opponent's "killing intent". It is also true that losing a sense heightens the others. However, the scene of how Fujitora "sees" the world shows us that he is still vision dependent. He just uses kenbunshoku to see. It may not and should not be to the same sensitivity, but mastery should make it always "on" to a certain extent. And the greater the mastery, the greater that level becomes.
     
  19. Yuuzume

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    You say that we should agree on the established content,but you're the one disagreeing with said content by disregarding haki and the WCI/Wano arcs.You say that we should agree on all of the established content except those aspects,but those aspects are proper pieces of the established content as well.So I don't it could be said that we agree on the established content when we disagree on parts of it,especially in this discussion that is about one of those parts,namely haki.If anything,we discussed this very part extensively during the earlier parts of the conversation precisely to determine whether or not any parts about haki had created any contradictions,and the result was that there was either no contradiction made or that some parts were ambiguous enough for the outcome to be unable to be decided yet.I can see why the existence of such ambiguous parts still leads you to believe that they are contradictions,but the very same ambiguity similarly leads me to believe that those same parts are not contradictions.

    As for the cultural aspect,I still can't say I agree with your viewpoint.Whether Oda has actually said that One Piece is targeted at a Japanese audience is something that I didn't deny even when you first mentioned it,but it still doesn't mean that a Japanese reader will get more information from One Piece.Comedy is a big part of One Piece and not getting most jokes,puns and general Japanese humor would only make the experience of reading it less enjoyable.For example,a manga reader who had chosen One Piece as the first manga to read would probably not enjoy it as much as someone who had read several manga before and was more familiar with Japanese humor.For the target audience to be Japanese people,in my opinion it means that they're simply more familiar with such Japanese aspects and can properly experience the manga as Oda meant it to be experienced.As far as the information about haki that is available,I don't see how a Japanese reader would acquire more information than a non Japanese reader.

    I don't see how building upon the previously established content of busoshoku haki by creating a "master level" aspect of busoshoku haki,like it was done with kenbunshoku,would necessarily create a contradiction though.As long as it doesn't contradict any previously established content,any aspect of the "master level" busoshoku haki would be considered as an extension of normal busoshoku haki.

    Isn't that your own interpretation of the word "friend"? Another person may see the same word,and what it signifies,in a different light.To explain what I'm trying to say,let's take a look at the word "nakama".In my opinion,a person who has read One Piece would have a different view of the word "nakama" than a person who doesn't know anything about One Piece.That's simply because the content of One Piece has given a lot of worth to the word "nakama" and anyone who hasn't read/watched One Piece would not be familiar with that worth.So a word can have a different meaning to different people in the sense that each person may associate different meanings and most likely different levels of emotion behind words.A person whose experiences have put a lot of worth in the word "friend" would take it more seriously than a person whose experience's hasn't don so and that worth may even rival the worth that One Piece readers put behind the word "nakama".

    Like I've said before,whether Oda can manage to surprise us in the future is something I don't claim to know.As for what the majority of the readers have felt from Oda's writing,and especially what they subconsciously felt,that is also something that I certainly do not claim to know.However,the fact that he has continuously surprised us so far has earned him the benefit of the doubt despite any possible patterns that anyone may or may not have seen.Still,regardless of that,we're talking about whether or not Oda has contradicted the details he has put forth himself.Even if he doesn't manage to surprise us again,that does not in any way mean that he will present us with a contradiction.Those two aspects are separate so let's not mix them together.You say that me and @Kia have had a subdued reaction,but in my eyes that reaction seems quite normal and logical.We're talking about established content and that's something that is up to the author,so I would rather treat it as innocent until proven guilty.We talked about the haki aspects earlier in the conversation and,as I've said,the result was none of them were conclusively proven to be guilty.In light of that,I don't believe that my and Kia's reaction was illogical or that we treated the series better than it deserved.I think we treated the series fairly and merely gave the credit that should be given,not more and at the same time not less.


    Fujitora was seen using his walking stick in order to move,as I've said before,which implies that he doesn't use kenbunshoku all the time.He presumably uses kenbunshoku when he deems it necessary (fights,critical situations.etc). The fact that haki energy can run out should suffice to prove that kenbunshoku haki can't always be "on" as it requires haki energy to be used,but Fujitora's example is further proof of that.Kenbunshoku isn't the same thing as eyesight,as both perceive different types of information and both drain different types of energy.Mastery may reduce the rate of consumption,which explains why characters don't run out of haki in 2-3 minutes after the start of the fight,but it has a limit.If it was always "on",it would run out after a while and then the person's battle prowess would be reduced and perhaps leave them vulnerable to attacks.
     
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  20. Seiryu

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    Going to have to skip some stuff since I don't like feel like staying up all night when I have to work tomorrow...
    And it should be pretty obvious that haki is and was poorly planned. Everything else is polished and planned out way more extensively than even my years of over-analyzing can hope to achieve. Life if full of exceptions, and being able to determine what is an exception is necessary. The fact that Oda didn't have a major exception for 20.5 years is the biggest part of his literary mastery in my mind. Of course he has had mistakes, but they were all extremely petty details to me (the stuff we discuss is already petty details to me and this goes directly to how most fans just see our banter as completely unnecessary).
    This part is exactly why I hate WCI and some of the B.S. (to clarify: B.S. is when Oda is 100% deviating from the simplified patterns he uses over and over; it literally is his key to success because he has only fine-tuned the techniques over the 20.5 years of implementation). When Oda does his job, we should have nothing to debate about extensively. The fact that he made mistakes is why there is so much room for human biases.

    I 100% think it would be beneficial to go back to other parts of the series, excluding recent B.S. or haki B.S., because it will show how connected every minuscule breadcrumb or reference/inspirational detail is tied together perfectly. I'll be addressing some of these browsing through the responses I've missed.
    Again, you should and are having full comprehension of 99+% of the content/context. Oda is purposefully minimizing cultural references for 10ish years now. However, haki is based on accepted real life martial arts phenomenon. This is exactly why every fighting manga has some form of it. If it wasn't the cultural norm, it wouldn't be so widespread. Oda can do a masterful job of minimizing the need for cultural experience, but knowing it definitely doesn't hurt.

    The fact that you don't believe in real life haki is going to bias you when we have panels with haki. I think the mastery example is proof of this. Something you did not believe in happens every day. With today's culture, people aren't willing to put in the work and hours upon hours to truly master something meaningful. I'll reference the recent chapters with the confirmation of the kairouseki cuffs (not only is Oda getting sloppy with having to go back and clarify things, which is definitely not the norm, but also the pro-Oda bias as well as mis-connecting previous context) as well as all powerhouses having kenbunshoku and busoushoku.

    I got a chance to watch parts of a recent anime episode, and even with Oda having weekly feedback to the animation teams, even they aren't consistently showing the blackening of haki. I'll go back to my references on similar discussions with Jawa in that of course we are going to butt heads on something that is poorly planned (on top of being poorly executed). We still don't have a solid explanation on what line separates normal experience based vision/observations from kenbunshoku. I am not ignoring @Kia's examples from other series, I completely agree with the rationale 100%, but the fact that they are all the exact same thing from a martial arts standpoint completely changes the interpretation/view.
    ...? I was just saying it is going to have to come up during the main/final fight with Kaidou. Kaidou almost has to have "mastered haki" to be the strongest being. It is possible that his other stats are enough to do this, but that would mean he is just exponentially greater a physical freak than even prime-Whitebeard or Roger. A good analogy is the pentagon rating system Japan loves to use to compare characters (usually each is a 0-5 scale with 5 points of reference). So we could use stuff like haki, strength, speed, durability, and tactics/brains. Kaidou should be able to max out all of these at 5/5. If we further expand into sub-categories (it isn't a nice visual this way), but chances are Kaidou maxes out busoushoku, but may only be a 3ish at kenbunshoku. Mental fortitude is something Kaidou cannot max out because he has already been shown to let alcohol and or his emotions get the better of him (but true mastery of self-awareness can minimize freaking out even in life-threatening situations, which is exactly why some normal people can be completely calm and rational in situations where most people lose their mind).
    And isn't that how it is most commonly used in the English language? Friend is obviously much more broad. Nakama is not and that is exactly what I'm talking about with the 0.1% impact of culture.
    This is 100% true, but speaking Japanese is why we all have a different starting bias on the word. Oda doing such a masterful job of showing unity among the crew conveys the meaning of the word so that anyone can understand the essence of the word. Any Japanese reader already starts with that. There's a reason why we don't see other people using the word "nakama" for years in the series.
    This is also completely avoiding the Japanese aspect of literally different words to clarify the level of friend (note to self to clarify the honorifics since Korean is not even close to Japanese, and that's from Korean fluent friends). The fact that we broadly use the word "friend" is my whole point. Because Oda is going straight to the highest/closest Japanese word for "friend" is why Japanese readers have a different bias from the very start. I will note that there are some technicalities that will contradict the direct "friend" translation for nakama, but that's a whole separate conversation (same concept above of having to pick and choose the exceptions that happen in life).
    Then you missed the details that his kenbunshoku only allows him to see the aura of people. He does not see the environment. Same goes for Usopp when we see his first use of kenbunshoku. Fujitora has to use a walking stick just like any other blind person (exception being people that use echolocation). Again, using the eye muscles don't take much ATP to operate. Literally one sprint-based quadriceps contraction could power my eyes all day...The answer is based on real life rationale. It isn't some "magic power" Oda is creating. It is taken to manga levels, but the rationale is still the same.
    This only confirms what my Korean friends have told me. Both Japanese and Korean have the exact same noun and verb honorifics, however Japanese has multiple levels of honorifics for ALL of those. Both of my friends gave up trying to continue Japanese studies in high school because they said so themselves that it started to get too different from Korean. They were able to learn up to a certain point because we have many similarities (since we both are a subdivision from Chinese culturally). Korean is more extensive in their ceremonial honorifics though.

    Maybe my friends have lied to me? As far as I know Japanese literary honorifics are more complex than Korean. I only know how to swear in Korean, but I'd trust someone's opinion if they were fluent in the language.
    I just need to point out the one scene where Big Mom asks Katakuri if he ordering her. She has the freedom to be a B**** to him because she knows she can just take his lifespan if he disobeys here. Yes, it is true that we do get great character development during the arc, but the inability to connect every detail is why I call it B.S. It is still very petty now, but it exactly why most people negatively view the arc. It has too many plot holes, which Oda literally keeps at nothing normally.

    I do want to go to the "perfect character" aspect though. In terms of morals, Oda was overly black and white with this. Even when a villain had a good trait (Senior Pink and his loyalty to his girlfriend). Despite this very admiral trait, he's probably a walking contradiction. Unless all the women around him are petty to be bought by money/status, that level of adoring normally stems from sexual satisfaction. He may only see his girlfriend as the only one for him, but he's still a rotten apple that got his negative karma (he's killed and plundered from a kid even if he isn't being ecchi with any of the girls, but highly unlikely if he's going to strip them to wipe his mouth).

    You and @Yuuzume missed a majority of the characters Oda literally wasted his life away planning. There's collections of who One Piece characters are based on, but Oda's support staff worked just as much as him in order to give Oda ALL of the details they could find on a person/location/cultural reference. There is a reason why people of different cultures say that Oda's references fit what they lived with for their entire lives. I would argue that Oda's work ethic and passion earlier in the series created multitudes of "perfect characters". I truly think we can attempt to nitpick apart previous arcs, but the content is so well planned, it literally is impenetrable. The fact that the context loss this is why I call it B.S. I truly think you both think I'm lying when I say Oda's writing style is nothing more than a "facade of complexity". It may kill the level of pro-Oda bias to a certain extent (it doesn't for me, my strong bias is how he is not creating perfect content anymore and technically my discussions with you two have made me even better at micro-analyzing), but it will make you more accurate on what you analyze.

    I of course am doing a terrible job explaining, but the recent manga content on the fighting in Wano Kuni should be supporting my bias with all of these haki discussions (I think even the power level related discussions).
     
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