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The Truth Behind Devil Fruits and SMILEs and The Reason Why Blackbeard Can Use Two Abilities.

Discussion in 'One Piece Theories' started by Yuuzume, Mar 14, 2018.

  1. Yuuzume

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    You say that Oda has made mistakes and refer to haki,the WCI and Wani arcs.We talked about haki already,a conversation in which you were included,and the result of the conversation was that there is no contradiction related to haki so far,hence no mistake.Of course,like I've said before,if you want to interpret any ambiguous parts as mistakes before they are even proven as such,that is of course a perfectly viable opinion and I respect you thinking so.However,the point of this specific part of thee conversation stemmed from you suggesting that some of the previous established content can't be trusted because of your aforementioned opinion and that is something I have to disagree with.Having an opinion about an ambiguous aspect of the series is one thing and it is perfectly reasonable and perfectly acceptable,as each person is entitled to their own opinion,but treating that opinion as a fact despite it contradicting the content put forth by the author is another.A considerable part of our conversation was spent to determine whether or not the parts about haki were indeed mistakes or not by examining the possibility of contradictions having surfaced over the course of the series,and yet we determined that a contradiction hadn't been made so far.In light of that,I don't see a reason not to trust any part of the existing content,regardless of whether it matched anyone's estimations or is to anyone's liking,including my own.

    I don't know why you're so intent on generalizing this aspect of the series,but I can't say I agree with it.Not every Japanese person necessarily believes in real life ki,people can believe in real life haki even while not being Japanese,and not every person who believes in real life ki necessary holds the same estimations for kenbunshoku as haki as you or does so to the same extend.You said that our difference in opinions stems from out different views on real life ki and attributed your belief mostly to being Japanese.And yet Kia also believes in real life ki and you attributed that difference in opinions simply to her not being Japanese.Wasn't your Japanese origin only meant to justify your belief in real life ki? In any case,as far as information on how kenbunshoku haki works at the moment,I'm only viewing kenbunshoku haki in the confines of the One Piece world and basing my opinion on the information that is made available in it.As far as any estimation of how kenbunshoku haki will be like in the future,I believe that's less up to a person's culture and more up to the person themselves,as I do not believe that every single Japanese person would hold the same perpspective and to the same extend when the future of kenbunshoku haki is concerned.

    Our view on mastery simply differs.There are things that each person values,hence there are certain situations that trigger people's instincts and emotions,which in turn can fill up a person's attention capacity and overwrite any reaction that they might have had in a different situation.

    As for haki,you seem intent on believing that my view of real life ki is responsible for my opinion and call it a bias,but of anything,I think I'm being fair in my judgement of how haki works in the One Piece world.Regardless of my belief as far as real life ki is concerned,I jusged haki based on the information given by the series.I don't believe I've let my opinion of real life ki hold me back from believing or denying anything about haki that has been presented in One Piece.On the contrary,it seems that you have let your belief of real life ki create a bias and affect your view of haki in the One Piece world.Estimations about haki in the future are one thing,but you disregard rules put forth about haki in the series due to your view of ki in the real world.You say that haki and ki are the same from a martial arts perspective but haki has been introduced an energy as tangible as stamina and one that can similarly run out,which doesn't correspond to ki in real life.

    As for the kairoseki handcuffs,I don't see how it's considered as miss-connecting previous context,it only helped make something that was already acceptable and explainable clearer.

    The word I used as alternative to nakama was to "friend" though,it was "comrade". I used the word friend precisely because it can be broad to showcase that some words hold different weigh in the eyes of different people.

    My point is that Oda isn't simply displaying the whole worth and meaning of the word,he's attaching his own worth to the word through the series.That's why people who haven't read One Piece presumably perceive the word "nakama" differently than those who have.

    Oh,that kenbunshoku haki can only perceive the auras of living begin and attacks made form them is something I quite agree with.And that particular limitation of kenbunshoku is one more reason as to why I don't think Fujitora uses kenbunshoku outside of battle or specific situations and simply relies on his cane and heightened senses.

    As for kenbunshoku begin the same as eyesight,Fujitora's example is testament as to why it's not the same thing.While the feedback one gets from sight might be able to make the picture one perceives through haki clearer,kenbunshoku has been to not be eyesight dependent through Fujitora.I assume it's your own perspective that led you to believe that the consumption of haki through kenbunshoku is the same as the consumption needed to power the eyes,but I don't see why the two would the same.If anything,the belief that kenbunshoku haki is an almighty power that never runs out,has no blind spots and comes as a package with an equally godlike dodging ability is closer to what I'd describe as "magical" than the view that haki runs out like stamina is.

    Not all aspects introduced throughout the series are carried until the end of the line,and whether or not details that are carried unti the end of the line have been connected properly is a judgement that would be best suited after a certain point,as the author may sometimes introduce points only to explain them at a later time.Though in any case,contradictions haven't been made yet.So while it's your own decision whether or to like or dislike certain parts of the series of trust Oda from here on out,disregarding established facts without them being contradictory to other parts of the content is a different matter.

    You still seem to believe that I hold some pro-Oda bias or something of the sort.I've had to mention Oda himself several times throughout this part of the conversation,but the fact is that Oda himself is a factor that I don't take into account when forming my opinions,like you probably already know.My opinions in the conversation so far don't stem from any sort of blind trust,bias or similar notion towards Oda and are instead based on the content that he has put forth,the series itself.As for any pro-Oda notion,you can't kill what doesn't exist in the first place.Of course,as far as I'm concerned,any credit that I give the series is a credit to Oda himself since he's the author,but that doesn't mean that I get ahead of the series and compliment solely Oda himself or create any sort of bias towards him,whether it's positive or negative.

    It's still too early to tell but I don't think we saw any contradiction.Even the kenbunshoku haki seems to be progressing normally and hasn't turned into a stare-down,considering that Luffy was quickly taken down by Kaido despite having kenbunshoku haki close to Katakuri's level,making the importance of skill match ups more apparent.
     
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  2. Seiryu

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    At a superficial level. Oda's mastery comes down to not having room to interpret alternative outcomes. I would never argue against how much you love the series (anyone here does), however, your comments imply you are missing how extensive the planning and execution of the first 20.5 years of the series was. The fact that we are having this back and forth is proof itself that Oda is making mistakes (much, much smaller than any other writer of any style I've ever come across). Things are all relative.

    If we are to discuss ANY aspect of the 20.5 years of content, we may have initial differences from our respective biases, but there is 0 room for a rational alternative. East Blue is the easiest because there is literally no one else even close to a douriki power rating of more than 2-5 (everyone is a normal human and the few people with a douriki rating of >1 is automatically a powerhouse. Even in the rest of the arcs, the hundreds if not thousands of hours of planning is why anyone potentially strong enough to alter the course of the climax fights is physically tied to a fight/task or morally/obligatorily/work or responsibility tied to something that prevents them from altering the "fate" Oda masterfully planned out.

    From the very beginning of each arc, there is only one path that can happen. Oda has mastered presenting a maze of potential options, but steadily revealing exciting plot points that often distract from previous key points. I'll see if it gets addressed later, but denying the truth of Oda's "facade of complexity" is only going to create room for inaccuracies in analysis. No matter how much Oda tries, discussions and forums like this are going to get more boring. Every single fan can rationalize the remaining major arcs. It is impossible to have a completely unseen twist.
    And this highlights what I think is the true literary mastery of Oda's previous work. Even with so many differing perspectives across global cultures, we all interpret even minuscule details the exact same way. Oda's mastery is why anyone that takes the time to read carefully (getting discussions like this to learn from other's is naturally a shortcut) can get full comprehension. If Oda continues to alter from his mastered trends/writing patterns, it is going to fall apart. Even with Oda trying to explain away the loopholes of B.S. overpowered fruit abilities, there are still means to utilize time travel or universal instantaneous withering.

    Just like the typing/mastery (something exceeding what you perceive and again, this is normal since we truly are dealing with potentially something once in a lifetime, hell maybe once in a human history sort of event), Oda's literary mastery is vastly greater than what your comments are implying. I'm gonna beat the dead horse, but true Oda context is 100% unquestionable. I literally have a much higher standard than any other fan because I've lived it and got spoiled with it for 12.5 years now (again, the last year is still exponentially greater than pretty much any other literary work, but is clearly at a different level from the other years). You obviously have the smarts for it, but I have a hard time thinking cultural insight does not play a part in overlooking the depth of contextual perfection (anyone can look down at the ocean on a boat, but it is physically impossible to see all the way down without a massive submarine. Culture is what makes us as an individual. We should actively do our best to inhibit the negative sides of any bias, but the perks are unique to each culture. In general, the more moral the culture, the more universal the beneficial aspects/more universal. That's just how the world/universe works. Of course you can microanalyze any part of that, but it should be an undeniable law of nature. I may not give a good enough explanation or analogy, but that's on me to keep on trying.

    Oda used to operate his "child" the same way. He correctly (for his health and his ability to be a proper father/husband) started to sacrifice his level of obsession/overworking to the point of being detrimental to his health, but it is manifesting in a lower level of literary mastery. However, any literary work is the same way. It is astronomically easier to have a good start and a good ending. Being able to tie an unquestionable plot through the middle is what Oda was initially on his way to doing.
    Technically, this is the only part of the discussion that is "still on topic". For the question on Japanese, of course not. My explanations may seemingly imply that but of course it shouldn't be such a linear correlation for such a complex situation. Of course there are going to be individual differences of opinion on something like haki, the cultural biases would make a strong bias in one direction. And I think the fighting manga industry itself is direct proof of this. Ultimately, I think the initial rant should hopefully do a better job expressing my bias on all of this.
    But there are all synonyms that still do not carry the same cultural differences. Every culture should have words, phrases, rituals, etc. that cannot be translated directly. It is possible to experience and live the "definition" (which is exactly what Oda does so masterfully). We 100% agree on the Oda aspect, but I have a hard time thinking the immediate interpretation is not different for people of different cultures. Oda's literary mastery is why it is now a universally understood concept for anyone that follows the series (assuming their translators choose to leave nakama as romaji).

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm getting the impression that you think we are having very different interpretations, when the reality is that it is very minuscule. I keep using the 99+% because the rationale Oda built this series upon is still an astronomically statistically significant majority still. This goes back to the "facade of complexity" bias. You are going to be much more accurate because that is how Oda writes. It should not really change your view of Oda because his work is a living piece of art (something that can span various cultures with the exact same level of impact puts it on such a high level to me). Going back to microanalyze through the rest of the series will confirm that.
    Exactly, same as the immediately above aspect on being able to agree on a great majority of the rationale (Oda's level of research, that his assistant have to do I would assume, is mind-boggling considering he doesn't have any legit science background as far as I know). Even for haki a great majority of the rationale is still being followed. The Luffy example and all of the residents is the "proof" of how it is something he should theoretically be able to do 24/7. It is a sixth sense that should be harnessed unconsciously (Luffy can only do it when he lowers the levels of conscious thought again all real life martial arts aspects). The energy to sense is astronomically lower because from a technical standpoint, we only primarily are depending on the energy to activate nerve endings and the transfer of that information along synapses. Any movement is astronomically to tiers and tiers of a different level because it is no longer is primarily dependent at a neural level.

    Kenbunshoku and busoushoku are worlds and worlds apart in the "haki energy" they consume. The same universal laws of nature are just being applied rationally to an unrealistic/superhuman manga situation.
    Now that we establish the agreement on the foundational rationale, now we can better understand each other's biases. To oversimplify a successful discussion, we both have to remove our personal biases and get to the essence that led to the rationale behind the differing interpretation. Again, due to cultural differences, I can 100% agree with that. Although there is a "magical" aspect to it, it is still based on human physiology. The energy to perceive senses vs. energy to move is on a completely different level by too many zeros/^nth degree.
    But Oda has already done this for 20.5 years. I've technically discussed with huge braniacs that I would 100% were much smarter than myself (strangely enough were bigger fans of Bleach and or Naruto, which was common for the time) so that's part of the reason why I'm so confident as a group effort, I've already nitpicked through most major topics for those 20.5 years of content. That level of understanding is also why I have a completely unique perspective on the series. Part of the reason why I figured out Oda's literary patterns was from those years of microanalyzing. Which is exactly why I can say 100% that you will start to see these flaws because they will stick out like the severe deviations that they are (again a relative perspective for the situation).

    I would assume most people hear at least acknowledge that I'm not spouting B.S. when I talk about Oda's patterns because it's played out along those lines over the years. If Oda wants to ruin the series (again he can choose to further deviate from his "facade of complexity" but his mastery is too extensive to give him good odds of success with something completely different), he can choose to change his writing style. I will gladly stick around and truly "rip it apart" because he is taking away something that I've grown so fond of. I think I've done a whole bunch to increase the level of appreciation for his work, but I will gladly do the exact opposite if it no longer is a living work of art (again it is still very small now, but I'm just more sensitive to any deviation from the truly 100% consistency, which is by definition humanly impossible).
    As fans, it is natural to have some level of blind faith. Being still new to the series increases the level of bias for that. Again, you are still 100% correct in your rationale, but because you don't have the experience on how the recent events are completely different from the 20.5 years of previous context is my point. Other people hear literally "feel" this B.S. instinctually. It isn't a very big deal in terms of agreeing on the rationale of 99% of stuff. It is a big deal to try to discuss future events/theories.
    I would respectfully disagree. But I think the main points I'm referring to are stuff like the kairouseki "contradictions", power level discrepancies, etc. The cumulative experience (a big part is what I've gained from others in the past) is why I can have a higher level accuracy. Both of us are batting a much higher percentage than the average fan, but it is a very small change in perspective to match Oda's rationale. In general, all of the fans here are much more "true" fans that understand all the petty details Oda spends hours and hours to try to fit together. Unfortunately, he is adding small bits of B.S. that were never there ever.
     
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  3. Yuuzume

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    Actually,the fact that we're having this discussion is proof that there are ambiguous parts in the series,either because they haven't been explained yet or because they stand alone in an ambiguous state with no relations to other parts of the series that could clear them up,and not that there are mistakes.This part is more relevant later down the line,so I'll simply mention it here and focus a little more on it when we get to the relevant part.

    As for the series being a facade of complexity,it's not something I denied.However,your words seem to underestimate this facade of complexity somewhat.Now that many aspects of the series have been revealed,it's easy to go back to them and say "This was the obvious and rational outcome",but the fact is that when those aspects were shrouded in the aforementioned illusion of complexity and people saw several outcomes as possibilities,many people had their expectations surpassed by what you refer to as a facade of complexity.Now that we have more information about many aspects of the series,it's not unusual for people to be more confident about their estimations as they have more facts to base them on.However,the series has a history of surpassing those expectations and the facade of complexity has a history of obscuring the real result until it is revealed.As confident as anyone is about their estimations,the aforementioned history of the series is a merit it has earned and the prize of that is the benefit of the doubt.People have thought that they had seen through the facade of complexity that is the series before,and it turned out they hadn't.In light of that,regardless of how confident one is about their estimations,the series has earned the right for people to think that it's possible for it to surprise them once more.

    You say that true Oda content is 100% unquestionable,but you're saying that when you look at it in the rear view mirror and with aspects already explained.Was true Oda content 100% unquestionable when you were looking at it through windshield? An example would be the time that Sentonmaru was first introduced (somewhat more official moment),or even earlier when Garp hit Luffy on the head (a little more low key than Sentonmaru). Until those moments,we knew that logia users and special paramecia users couldn't be affected by physical attacks and blunt/cutting/etc (depending on the paramecia fruit) attacks respectively.So what did people think when Sentonmaru was able to solidly hit Luffy? Now we can look back and say that the obvious reason was haki,but what about the time before haki had been officially explained? Before haki,the information that "Logia/Paramecia users couldn't be hurt by certain attacks" was questioned,until the existence of haki was later revealed and everything was tied together.Similarly,the content that you now call questionable and B.S might be similarly "obvious" in the future when many aspects and details will have possibly been explained.If we look at pieces of the series that have all their details explained already,it's easy to judge whether or not they're questionable or have mistakes.However,the process isn't as easy when the part in question is one that is in the middle of being played out.Regardless,all of that comes down to whether or not an aspect of the series is "questionable/ambiguous",not whether or not it's a mistake.That's another matter,which I'll elaborate on a little more later down the line.

    Regardless of whether that the fighting manga industry has incorporated concepts like haki/chakra/etc from a real life belief that ki exists in the real world or not,that belief goes as far as impacting how easy it is for someone to accept the existence of such energy inside of the manga and how familiar it makes a reader feel depending on whether or not they are familiar with that concept.Even if people who believe in real life haki find it easier to accept its existence inside of a manga,it doesn't mean that the people who don't believe in real life ki don't accept its existence.As for the extend to which the specific abilities that that energy grants in each manga can grow to,that depends mostly on the person's imagination and not the culture that they live around.As for the person's imagination,my opinion is as I've said before.A person who believes in haki in real life and has seen real life examples of its use should logically have less expectations of its applications.That's because one's experience of real life ki usually (not necessarily though) limits the expectations they have of it and those expectations usually correspond to their knowledge of real life ki.As for people who don't believe in real life haki and have no experience of it,it's easier for their imaginations to run wild and view it as an overpowered ability.So if anything,people who don't believe in real life ki should normally view haki as an ability as god like as you describe it,not the way around.As for those who believe in real life ki,it's one thing to draw information from that to connect it to the energy in each manga,but let's not forget that the two are not identical as the rules of each type of energy depends on the respective manga and aren't necessarily the same as others.

    I agree that a Japanese person will place more worth on the word "nakama" than a non-Japanese person would.However,and this was and is what I'm trying to say on this subject,I disagree about the reason why the case is such.Your previous words suggested that the word "nakama" is inherently more worthy of representing certain values by suggesting that there is no word that it can be completely translated to.On the other hand,I'm saying that the reason you believe this to be the case is because you have used it more often than a non-Japanese person would have.Every instance where you've used this word has respectively either increased or decreased its worth in your eyes.However,just as you've placed worth in the word "nakama" through use,non-Japanese people have similarly placed the respective worth to words like "comrade" or even "friend". In light of that,the way you interpret the word "nakama" and the worth behind it is similar to how a non-Japanese person would interpret the word "comrade",hence it's not impossible to directly translate the word "nakama".

    You're right in that the difference is not big,but my view on the situations is somewhat different to what you describe.It's not that I think that the difference in our opinions is big,it's just that I think it's very substantial and essential to the outcome of the core discussion.You say that the series has mistakes and yet your reasoning behind this suggesting is that the series "is not perfect".I simply believe that it's too soon to make such a claim without solid evidence of it.The series is simply not complete yet,so judging parts of it that include other incomplete parts,like haki,would normally lead to discussions such as ours due to some of those parts being ambiguous at the moment.However,being ambiguous merely means that it might be wrong,not that it already is wrong.This slight difference is as essential the difference that differentiates between night and day.As long as it's not wrong,the facts established by Oda can't be denied.This part of the discussion stemmed from you finding some parts about haki untrustworthy when I and @Kia used them as facts to explain our opinions on haki.However,as long as any part of the series is merely questionable and not an irrefutable mistake,then there is no more to completely disregard the fact established by Oda.You're essentially saying that someone is guilty simply because they might be guilty,without providing definite proof of it.You've said that I have blind trust in Oda but that's far from begin he case.The information that can determine whether or not some parts are mistakes or not simply hasn't been provided.And I'm only saying that because it's the result that the four people who were mainly involved in the haki discussion agreed upon,one of which was you.Of course,it's completely possible that there may be a part that we've overlooked,and should that be the case,you're of course more than welcome to present it.You call the series a facade of complexity,but that facade has pulled the wool over many people's eyes many times before,so I'm only suggesting that it's too early to judge it before the final curtains have been pulled.

    It hasn't been stated that kenbunshoku is the same as eyesight nor that the consumption of haki when kenbunshoku is used is minuscule.In fact,not much has been stated about the recovery of haki either.We only know that Luffy needed time to rest to recover some,it may be the case that one can't recover it while it's being used,in which case it would run out no matter how minuscule the rate of consumption is.But even before that,we don't even know anything about said rate of consumption,we only know that haki can run out after being consumed.Since we know that haki can run out,the only way that Fujitora,or anyone else,could constantly have kenbunshoku haki "on" is if it is stated that people can recover haki even while it is used and that one's rate of haki consumption when using kenbunshoku when using it is lower than their haki recovery rate.Unless such facts are stated by Oda,then I'm more inclined to believe that people can't have kenbushoku haki always "on" simply due to the known fact that one's haki reserves can run out.

    Like I've said above,you're saying that while looking at the previous content through the rear view mirror,after those parts have mostly been played out.It's logical to judge a play after seeing it in its entirety,but it's not as accurate if you do it before it has been played out in its entirety.

    If you can feel/see/smell/sense that Oda is changing his writing style and that the facade of complexity will be different than before,then of course you're entitled to that opinion.Oda himself is not an aspect I take into account to judge the series so if such a change is taking place,then it's not something I can feel/see/smell/sense.If you think you can allow me to look at things through your perspective by explaining it or can provide some solid evidence to support your claims,then it would be quite helpful to me or anyone else who might not see things from your perspective on this matter.Otherwise,I'm more inclined to simply wait and see how the series plays out and judge it appropriately after the relevant information has been revealed.Making guesses based on patterns and limited information is one thing,and it makes reading different theories interesting,but making a concrete judgement requires as much of the information as possible to be known.So regardless of both our current opinions,a more concrete conclusion would be be drawn after such information is made available to us.
     
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  4. Kia

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    Sorry, I honestly thought that I’d responded ages ago. But I guess I’ve only been debating with Jawa.

    I’ve already addressed this. The martial arts perspective only takes you so far when it’s only been compulsory in Japan for junior high students since 2012. Prior to that, there was no guarantee of a shared martial arts perspective and even with the compulsory nature of the program and likelihood that, due to funding issues, it’ll be judo that will be taught, there’s still the possibility of kendo or sumo. Furthermore, as previously discussed, there are the differences in ideological bases amongst the various martial arts types. Even more so, there’s the question of just how much will be retained in that short of a period of a course of study as it's unclear if the requirement is for the entirety of junior high or only a portion thereof.
    Okay every (good) mother I know would’ve reacted the same way. A child doesn’t order a mother around. It’s disrespectful. So, discipline is required if there’s even a hint of that being the case. I’m not calling Big Mom a good mother but to say that the one instance where her behavior meets normal mom standards is an example of her being a b*tch doesn’t fly with me. I respectfully disagree.

    I didn’t miss these characters, rather I recognized them and they’ve attributed to the respect and credit that the series is being given by me. Instead, it seems that there is a misunderstanding as to what I meant by a perfect character. The context of my statement was a large clue I was speaking of a perfect foil in battle. “I don’t believe that Oda will create a perfect character because there isn’t a perfect person. Haki will continue to be presented as it has been, developing in strength commiserate with the levels of the characters and complementing their skills but not to the point of excess or perfection as I stated.” This is what I said. By this I mean that having someone who has all of the Haki maxed out as well as the speed, strength, dexterity, etc to properly utilize and effectively work with those skills as well as no weaknesses would be a “perfect character” in terms of battle. Thus, it wouldn’t occcur because everyone has quirks and weaknesses. It’s how we deal with and compensate for them that make us who we are for better or worse. One Piece does an excellent job of developing and displaying that so I believe that it will continue.

    @Yuuzume @Seiryu when it comes to the nakama versus comrade/friend discussion, my input is as follows: I do believe that “comrade” is as close as the English language can get to that word in its original definition. Furthermore, for some people, on an individual level, it’s posdible to imbue the word “friend” with the level of meaning that is close to what is intended as Yuuzume is trying to convey—that’s highly individualistic and not transferable amongst individuals in a way that would make conveying that meaning possible in a very real sense, however since it is so subjective. There do exist words/concepts that cannot be easily translated from one language to another. I’ve had that problem often in ‘ōlelo Hawai’i when trying to explain it in English. It just doesn’t work and takes a sentence or so.

    As for Pandora’s box, it contained all the evil in the world, in my recollection. So the gist is the same but the links to Queen Otohime, the undersea kingdom and the aging were understandably missing. That’s like every time I read Orochi’s name I kept thinking that he was going to be a dragon so when he was revealed as such it was like yup.

    As for Kidd/Luffy being able to do all that work while I’m kairoseiki, Oda laid the groundwork for that quite well. He had Hawkins shoot Law with a nail, explain that Wano was full of kairoseiki smiths who could do amazing things. Then showed a work camp, said he planned to tame them. I don’t see the problem. As you’ve stated, we’re suposed to be reading closely. He explained it fully in the next chapter. I think that we were supposed to be a bit surprised but he also left breadcrumbs.

    @Yuuzume has done a great job of summarizing the key issues that we’ve had here in our discussion which stem from your use of your real world martial arts perspective to overshadow the information that is provided by the author and the judging of things that haven’t occurred yet based on things that are happening at the moment. If you’re completely comfortable both prejudging and letting your personal bias overrule what is written to the point that you call the Haki mistakes based not on rules stated by the author but by your own experiences/canon then there’s obviously nothing anyone can say to make you see it any other way or that perhaps a literary work should be viewed as it is, not as we want it to be. I recognize that there are cultural items that add richness and depth to the series. That doesn’t mean that having your martial arts perspective means you can supersede that which is specifically and explicitly stated to be a rule by the creator. Otherwise, you’re creating your own story and, by your own words, any wild and crazy theory is possible.
     
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  5. Seiryu

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    Again, to each their own opinion, but I will point out how the series progressed completely smoothly (and unquestionably rationally) with in-fight power-ups. This is something that definitely makes Oda unique. Other than Zoro, no one does any training for a great majority of the series. Oda's ability to do so is again why I am so confident that the "real" parts of the series do not even allow for any questions. If Oda didn't procrastinate on haki, it could have gone equally unquestionable (again, we should still agree on a great majority of the established rationale behind current haki mechanics).
    Again, I'm going to say that we 100% agree on the rationale behind everything. However, you should agree that the current 80% completion should naturally play a major factor in all of this. I think the 80% completed puzzle visual is the perfect analogy. Anyone can see with complete accuracy the big picture. The fact that everyone here is steadily getting more and more accurate with their analysis and predictions is proof of that (and I haven't even been here all that long).
    For the stuff the past 10ish years (2008-2017), I would 100% say so. The only contradictions prior to WCI B.S. were extremely petty details someone would bring up in a SBS or Oda would further clarify in a databook. Even something somewhat important contextually like the recent Shiryuu crew commander number is something Oda (and more his team of assistants/editors) would not let go unchecked.

    I've done discussions like this on a weekly basis for those 10 years. Thankfully, K-F had excessively analytical people to do such discussions, so again I'm fully confident that people smarter than me already over-analyzed the previous content to a great extent than I do. The fact that these discussions always ended pretty rapidly (by no means multiple pages of only a few people responding, it may have been multiple pages when a group discussed) is the unquestionable context I know is the "real" series I love.

    It is still a tiny seed that has not even sprouted, but Oda is making changes that many long-term fans are picking up on instinctually (most don't take the time to explain in further detail what led to their reaction/rationale, so the gut reaction of just not liking it seems most likely). We should have a much easier time discussing if we were to try break down literally any other topic (small parts of WCI, Wano Kuni, and haki). I was fully skeptical on the true complexity until the Ace/Garp explanation got revealed to me (I too was a much more universally pro-Oda in my bias).
    And this is what I've been trying to convey on the cultural influences. Again, I 100% agree with everything you write here, but it is impossible to not have cultural influences change who you are and how to interpret and react to the exact same situation/context. Over time, Oda is so consistent that it becomes universally understood by readers. Different cultural and different experience backgrounds/levels change the learning curve. Based on what I'm reading, I think we finally got to a mutual endpoint for this subtopic since we both understand each other's perspective.

    From the current context, both are still completely 100% rational analysis but the different biases are why we come to different interpretations. I would assume the same aspect of experience learning would lead you to similar biases with enough exposure to fighting manga (a great majority of kids have 0 martial arts experience even in Japan). Same goes for the mangaka. I wouldn't be surprised if most of them don't have relevant first-hand experience, but the cultural learning is why there is consistency.
    I think we're getting close to the end here too. Over time, the meaningfulness is learned and conveyed to any reader. That is where the full comprehension of the concept can be understood through "comrade", "friend", etc. Same thing as above in that the cultural impact is impossible to avoid. We will get a definitive answer eventually with haki. However, it is by far the least planned out idea is all of One Piece, which is in itself a contradiction since Oda literally is brainwashing us to interpret petty details the way he wants us to. But that's great storytelling.
    And this is where the years of doing this on a weekly basis is my proof. We got essentially 5-6 years to kill before the series ends. We've got more than enough time to overanalyze the first 20.5 years of the series (because the context is so thorough, it should only take a few responses, if not only one, to reach the mutual agreement point). The level of perfection is mind-boggling. Even minor references for a location, or character design has hours and hours of research behind it. Oda lovingly called the series his "child" and he's such a workaholic that he's far exceeded the amount of hours any normal parent puts into raising their child.

    I truly believe the biggest reason why One Piece is so universally loved by those that get enough exposure to it is just two main factors: the character development and 100% rationality for every detail (which obviously is lacking for haki's explanation/functionality; which is not the norm since most mangaka through fight scenes/training scenes show the parameters of their version of "haki"). We love allies and hate villains because of the character development. Because everything used to fit perfectly, it literally used to be a perfect story. Oda is still doing something superhuman by leaps and bounds considering the longevity.
    No it has not been stated but this is where the "magical" bias is going to create a gap. I will immediately reference Luffy's rate of recovery (WCI B.S. makes it worse). Even with the Doffy fight, his "overconsumption" is still possible with the minutes the Coliseum/allies buy him. Based on Kaidou's minimal usage of defensive busoushoku, why wouldn't he be able to use both kenbunshoku and busoushoku for 24/7 over a week or so?

    Oda will probably never clarify the "energy consumption" of kenbunshoku vs. busoushoku (I would be willing to bet he wants to avoid the "power level reading" that is infamous with DBZ). Our biases may astronomically change the ratio, but the fact that busoushoku is exponentially greater than kenbunshoku (Luffy uses zero kenbunshoku energy against Doffy) I do not think can be questioned. The real life rational/physics/physiology should not be questioned either in my mind. Oda is too much of a detail perfectionist to truly base haki on illogical concepts. Not moving is going to take less energy than moving. The greater the exertion, the greater the energy expenditure. Don't forget that Luffy technically has to imbue EVERY muscle fiber in his ENTIRE body during Gear Fourth (at a microscopic level vs. just the surface of an individual muscle). During Gear Third, every bone (during the transitions at least) has to be imbued with busoushoku. Every artery and vein has to be imbued constantly during Gear Second. Just because it isn't shown, Oda gave us the explanation back with Rayleigh's training (we can expand on that if needed).
    Of course not obviously, but it is much more simple than you think. Previously, the perfect answer was the only answer. Because normal fans began to accurately predict what was coming up, I assume Oda's pride is why WCI B.S. and now recent Wano Kuni B.S. is coming up. This goes back to trying to overanalyze other topics. That is the reality of how the series used to be. Haki is not well planned out, and thankfully is the only major aspect of the entire series' 21.5ish years.
    No need to apologize for something that needs no apology for. If you don't find it meaningful, you shouldn't take your time. I've been pressed for time, so my Japanese bias naturally went to the seniority aspect (seniority is relevant in any culture but has a higher importance to affect myself subconsciously). This is something I've realized looking back now, so hopefully that helps explain my situation/responses.

    I think this came up with Yuuz (or I could be merging you two in my mind again), but just in case it isn't, anime/manga used to poke fun at those that over apologize. It is a great trait to have, but even a good thing can be excessive. Everyone will interpret that limit differently, but to each their own. I think we've bantered enough to not require the normal formalities. If we were talking in Japanese, I'd be dropping the honorifics of "full sentences" because I respect and see our interactions on a "friendly" basis (purposefully reference to the whole nakama sub-topic). Vs. the alternative of a lack of respect/looking down on the conversation partner.
    And I will counter with the learned cultural perspective. Currently, most kids and most mangaka don't have martial arts experience, but there is still universal similarities among all series. It is based on real life, and of course I'm not going to say you have to believe that, but I think my explanations on watching hip movement should be 100% conceptually understood by anyone (I have to do something similar for work so I know anyone from any background should be able to apply the concept). The fact that it is a universally accepted part of the culture is my point. Even if you don't believe in it, Japan does. My back and forth on the cultural influences with @Yuuzume looks like they reached an end, so I'd rather not have to go through the pages and pages trying to change your perspective if needed. Rather than hearing if from me (there will be an unconscious bias against whatever I write), getting an explanation from him would be the most efficient means.
    I disagree quite a bit because Big Mom is excessively selfish in this example. Katakuri is trying to help her out because he sees the problematic future. Her unwillingness to accept that her son can be significant help to her is a huge problem. Again, I 100% agree that a child should have filial piety, but in regards to the context, I disagree on applying parent-child respect to this extent.

    Unless we are referring to different scenes, Katakuri simply states something and Big Mom immediately misinterprets it and overreacts: "Are you trying to order me around?". I'm sure as hell my mother didn't have such a short fuse. Threatening to kill someone for trying to help you seems like a very undesirable personality to me. Maybe it's the Japanese bias (Oda creating Big Mom to be the exact opposite of what her name implies in that she is trying to create a big family that is actually based on morals [a utopia where everyone can get along]) but part of the literary mastery in my mind is this complete contradiction. It also follows the series' trend to slowly reflect real life and the tiny intricacies that make all the difference. Even though she started pure and the moral idea from Mother Caramel, she followed her "mother's" destiny and physically doing the exact opposite (of course only to a certain extent since Totland is peaceful as long as you pay with lifespan).
    Yup, 100% agree with everything you write here (we will eventually get there, hopefully...Oda deviating and compromising on the level of we should 100% agree on a great majority of the context and the rationale behind it (one of the two driving factors that makes this series great). Our personal biases just cloud and make it seem like there is a greater gap.
    Exactly, and I think I'm getting better and conveying my point that over time anyone can learn the intricacies through enough experience/exposure. The cultural difference will always exist, but the same perspective can be learned. Spark notes version: 99+% of established content (haki and minor points of WCI/Wano Kuni's plot are the deviations from Oda's high standards on rationale) should be 100% agreed by all of us. That's the literary mastery of Oda's writing style. To a certain extent, he is literally brainwashing us to interpret the series he wants us to and that's what a great storyteller does (and of course getting this effect is astronomically easier in person with the physical and vocal interactions).
    I'm not familiar with the story behind Pandora's Box, but legends have similarities since ultimately they are all trying to convey key cultural morals (that should be universal across all cultures). I can only go off of what I know, and I am not going to act like I know about other cultures (which is exactly why I avoid it if possible). Having similarities would naturally accelerate the cross-cultural learning. Ultimately, I think you provide an example of what I'm arguing. One Piece is a Japanese manga, so having parts of a Japanese bias is simply going to be more accurate. Of course it is impossible to "get into Oda's head", but he's literally the biggest stickler for EVERY detail with the series. This used to 100% for every last microscopic reference. It is still well over 99%, but Oda is letting plot altering details to be introduced (I can go back to those if needed). This has to reference that the series is built on creating only 1 rational outcome. It starts as a maze of infinite possibilities, but the level of detail and planning makes it such that there is no alternative (all of the breadcrumbs and puzzle pieces have to fit perfectly). Thus, the perfect answer used to be the only answer.
    Again, I 100% agree that the context of power levels makes it the most likely explanation. However, he had to go back and clarify that it was not normal kairouseki (all previous context of kairouseki only allows for short burst/aerobic exertion). The 100% contradiction is the hours and hours of anaerobic exertion shown. For Law, all he needs is to just get out of sight (successfully hide behind the right corner/building). Thus, aerobic exertion. He has to "run" at the correctly inhibited rate after loosing Hawkins. This is a perfect example of how Oda's attention to detail only allows 1 rational explanation if you connect all previous context. Him successfully running the entire time contradicts the duration normal kairouseki inhibits. This is how fast the original 20.5 years of context can be discussed. One if not multiple points of context will be contradicted with the alternative explanation (of course the exact details can vary the main concept cannot be questioned).
    And I'll say again that you both are still new to analyzing the series on a weekly basis. From all of this, you will start to see the "negative" sides that I'm talking about. Worst case scenario is that Oda starts to ruin the series. It is still very, very far from that but the seed has already been planted. If you want, going back and discussing how 100% rock-solid the first 20.5 years of the series is my proof. Even with haki, the basic rationale has been set. The lack of planning and explanation is why there is room for different interpretations.
     
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  6. Yuuzume

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    First of all,pardon my late reply as I was unable to reply for quite a while.I'll do so now that I have an opportunity to do so.

    You say that Oda procrastinated when haki is concerned and that there have been mistakes because of that,but I don't really see it that way.Let me remind you that the source of your bias is the belief that some characters "should" have had haki but they weren't shown using it (namely Teach and Ace). That being your opinion is of course fine,but it's not a solid reason to think that the haki content of the series has mistakes and that it wasn't properly handled.The reason why those two characters weren't shown using haki can be logically explained (which is a part of the early sections of the conversation),so I don't see anything wrong with it.We spent a good part of the conversation trying to figure out whether or not there has been a contradiction in the series' haki content and we reached the conclusion that there wasn't.So while that conclusion stands,I can't really agree to thinking that there is a mistake with the current content when I don't think there is.As for the rest of the content,while I agree that there is no mistake with that,let me ask you a question.The same way that you think that Ace and Teach should have been able to use haki early on in the series after we learned of it,shouldn't we also have said that "Whitebeard was a Yonko,so why didn't he use the awakening of his quake fruit?"? It makes a lot of sense for him to have been able to do so,and he should have done so before he died if he was able to.The same question should also stand for Marco,Crocodile,Enel,etc. Doflamingo was just a Shichibukai,so how come there were characters with similar or higher status that weren't shown to use awakening abilities? Wouldn't that mean that the awakening wasn't properly planned as well and that Oda didn't handle the subject of devil fruits properly,like you're suggesting he did with haki? Isn't it just that the awakening,just like haki,can't manifest and be trained by everyone and that strength isn't necessarily the only factor? At the very least,that's what has been stated by Rayleigh about haki.

    To sum up the rest,it comes down to "cultural differences" and "all the content of the series besides haki is unquestionable".

    As for cultural differences in general,they make a difference in the experience of each reader in the sense of getting/not getting certain jokes and being more/less familiar with the content.While that experience may be different,the information that each reader can get is the same in the end,and the conclusions they reach and guesses they make depends on them themselves.As for the cultural differences when haki is concerned,it's not really suitable to mention a cultural difference here since the concept of real life ki/chakra/etc is not exclusive to Asian countries in the first place.However,taking a step back,it would only influence the experience of a reader who was familiar with it.One doesn't need to have real life experience of it to comprehend how haki works after all,the mechanics are explained by Oda throughout the series for all to see.

    As for the content of the series being unquestionable,of course I agree,though I don't think that haki should be excluded from that content.Kenbunshoku haki isn't always obvious in its usage so it may create ambiguous scenes in the sense that they can be explained both through kenbunshoku and simple battle instincts,but those scenes can be explained in the end and there are no problems created about haki itself as a concept.Personally,I don't see any problems with haki.I don't know why you believe that Teach should have had haki when he fought Ace (and even when he fought Shanks) and be extremely proficient at it at that,but that would only contradict the already established content.And if that wasn't the case for Teach,then Ace not using haki if he was able to would surely be such a contradiction.If there was no explanation for it and it was left completely ambiguous and without explanation throughout the series,then I'd be easier to see things from your perspective.However,a proper explanation was given to us by Rayleigh when he stated that not everyone can unlock haki and then also train in using it.That explanation should be enough remove thee ambiguity from haki.If that's not enough to convince you,the only remaining way to do so would be a direct statement either in the series or in something like a SBS,vivre card,etc I guess.In any case,the fact that Oda has given an explanation as to why many people can't use haki in the series through Rayleigh's explanation is enough for me.
     
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  7. Kia

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    I thought I posted this yesterday but it showed up as unposted when I saw Yuuzume’s message. My bad.

    Details are never petty. They’re the brushstrokes that make up a painting. The sounds that form words. The trees that form forests. The words that make stories that build worlds. The chromosomes the form DNA. I just don’t understand the insistence on belittling details. Anyways, moving on, I could just be hung up on the word “petty” and all of its connotations. ^_^

    There have been training scenes with Rayleigh wherein he outlined the parameters of Haki. The anime has definitely flushed it out even more during the Katakuri fight with a plethora of flashbacks that have a lot more training scenes.

    Actually, the human brain consumes 20% more energy than any other organ even at rest. When active, this doesn’t change. When we use the brain more, it requires even more energy, not less. Given the choice, taxing both brain and body simultaneously, we’ve evolved to select our brains’ needs over those of the rest of our body’s. This means that it would stand to reason that kenbunshoku would be just as taxing, if not more so, than the other forms of Haki.

    So being forced to think a little instead of being spoon fed means that a series is now BS? The presence of red herrings or avenues not taken? I’m trying to follow you here. It’s honestly probably just that my mind isn’t firing properly. I think that’s what happens a lot when you think it’s a negative bias. It’s just my poor health and comprehension skills popping up at inopportune times. If you could be so kind as to explain, that would be wonderful. ^_^

    For me it’s more that I get forgetful and think that I’ve responded to something then realize that it never happened so I have to go back and take care of it. I’m cool with the lack of formality. After this much conversation/discourse, there’s not a need for it on my behalf. ^_^

    I read all of the posts so I’m aware of all the discussions that you’ve been having even if I’m not responding to them. Similarities between mangas do not mean that items are the same is my point. It still allows for individual mangaka to set their own rules which has been my point the entire time. I’m not claiming that martial arts rules don’t exist nor that Haki/chi/Ki doesn’t operate in the ways that you describe in real life. I’m simply stating that each individual manga is slightly different thus, there isn’t really a universality because they specifically make themselves different to distinguish their works, worlds and characters. So applying such rules to supersede the specific rules of an author’s world and call out inconsistencies based on such is less than valid in my reckoning.

    I’m thinking of him helping her by trapping Luffy when he went after the photo of Mother Carmel. He explained who was the real one and to ignore the rest. She didn’t threaten to kill anyone. She just asked him what he was doing and reminded him of his place as her son. So I don’t know if we’re talking about completely different scenes or you just did one hell of an inference. Does she treat her children like shit? Absolutely. Is that in direct contrast to the loving relationships portrayed for the majority of the protagonists, yes indeed. But I still don’t see a death threat there. I see a chain of command and respect issue before she was made aware of the information that he possessed. Then she shut up and followed suit.
    upload_2019-1-21_22-15-25.jpeg upload_2019-1-21_22-16-15.jpeg
    And Katakuri’s facial expression is because he’s seeing Luffy destroy the photo.

    I never realized until you expressly stayed that you were trying to convey that people could learn the intricacies and learn the perspective because you’ve been beating the horse of differing cultures so hard. I knew that it was possible because of my anthropology background. I just didn’t realize you were accepting the premise. Thank you for the clarification. ^_^

    So if there are unexplored avenues or red herrings then a story/arc or portion thereof is BS? I’m not sure that I’m understanding you correctly here. I think this is where you say that I have a negative bias and it’s just my health issues and lack of comprehension kicking in at an inopportune time. I’d truly like to know what you mean so if you could please be so kind as to explain, I’d really appreciate it. ^_^ Hmmm, I feel like I’ve said this already.... maybe you said something earlier that prompted a similar response? To me, I see it as simply being a bit more vague so as to provide mystery while still spelling things out enough such that people can put together the right answer amongst the possible choices. Not eliminating every single possibility for the reader doesn’t mean that you’ve failed. In fact, it’s usually considered boring to be able to figure everything out.

    For Law we already discussed a possible solution to normal kairoseiki. Granted, we were talking about the other D’s at the time. He could’ve had “hysterical strength” for that short period of time to override the effects. After all, they believed their comrades were killed, Luffy was captured, the plan was ruined, he needed to escape right then in order for there to be any chance of survival.

    Even if it was 100% previously, I still wouldn’t say that allowing different interpretations now is due to lack of planning as I stated earlier. Not showing your cards doesn’t mean that you’re not holding them. We can agree to disagree if you’d like. ^_^ My goal is always simply to understand other perspectives.
     
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  8. Seiryu

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    No reason to apologize. I think I benefited from the break honestly.
    And then I will point out how the official databooks are confirming my bias.
    Yes, but our discussions also expand into the prediction/theory aspect, which is where the contradictions apply. The fighting mechanics clearly imply a contradiction in that they are not fighting to the level of action we see now (for the Ace vs. Blackbeard example, the fight should be greater than Luffy vs. Katakuri since both are proficient with all three forms of haki => I don't recall Blackbeard using haoshoku, but contextually, he is going to have it). This ultimately goes back to the same databook argument in that Oda is being forced to address the small problems before they grow into clear contradictions.

    The content is 100% appropriate because he didn't know the details of how fight mechanics would work at the highest levels (I still don't think he knows which is why he is wavering constantly on how Luffy's awakening will work against Kaidou). This directly ties into haki/haki usage/haki mastery in that it is an integral part of elite of the elite fighting. I am going to assume we don't disagree on haki being a necessary part of this level of fighting (does not apply to the rest of the Mugiwara crew).
    Of course. I 100% agree. However, context implies that he is too physically weak by the time we see him fight seriously (everyone confirming he is a minuscule fraction of his former self). Awakenings take astronomical physical energy, which matches the science of creating matter from nothing. When we learn the "requirements" of an awakening (this should be happening quite soon since it is necessary for Wano Kuni to proceed rationally), I have a hard time thinking Whitebeard doesn't exceed all of them.
    This is where all of them are clearly on a different tier. And I think the last "requirement" is a power/tier related topic (Marco is likely an exception due to the chronicity of ability duration/lifespan spent with the fruit ability). This parts are all 100% speculation and nothing from any form of databook, but the rationale of context should make everything fit. Croc and Enel (based on their most recent fights), should not have awakenings. Croc may get one since he is going to stay relevant for the rest of the series (he definitely had his ability for long enough based on context). However, even from Croc's fights that are shown, he steadily grows stronger/adapts to the power-ups/abilities revealed as the series progresses.

    Contextually, Croc's overconfidence in Pluton (which is 100% valid since it easily destroys the world), is why he stops training. His lose to a rookie, in his perfect environment (also the inability to get the ancient Pluton), forces him to start training again. Oda's already got all of this planned out (the gender change from Iva is the link to the end of the series). This directly reflects the complete lack of [relative] planning that went into haki and the B.S. changes (we have a new one with the 3-way war; I'm going to look forward to the action, but the context is going to start having loopholes/incomplete parts that have to be addressed later or left open).
    It is when we are trying to predict. Again, my bias is getting confirmation as the weeks pass with the newest databooks. Culture creates natural biases that are different from culture to culture. Of course there are overlaps. Many legends have overlap for the purpose of passing on morals (pretty sure I've said this part here).

    You are not wrong in your perspectives (and we should agree on 99-100% of established content), but it is going to have key biases that are different from Oda's. If you are going to have accurate theories, you have to match Oda's mindset. You have to be cognizant of his writing patterns and "facade of complexity". You are going to jump to overcomplicated ideas when the answer is always much more simple.

    Oda is going to ruin the series if he keeps making B.S. changes, but he is still trying to keep everything 100% rational.
    This goes back to the established content (99-100% agreement) vs. predictions/theories. Everything is still rational for haki as it is explained so far, it is clearly not when we apply to future fights/future capabilities (the reason why we are having this discussion). I'm not ignoring the rest of the post, the above aspects address them in my mind.

    Ultimately, we never get an answer until the awakening reveal. We will get a short-term resolution microanalyzing other parts of the series. The awakening part is a good start. Oda's "facade of complexity" should make all of the context explanations straight forward. There are going to be a list of limitations ("requirements" is the Japanese word used in the unofficial databooks). And that is the key as to why other powerful people do not have it (Cracker may be incorrectly perceived as a lower tier than he should be based on his physical body vs. the army he created over time).
    In a different context they 100% can be (again, I 100% agree on the art analogy since that is what separates a masterpiece from a local artist's work). Ah...Oda's writing style is the EXACT SAME THING! @Yuuzume just in case since this looks like it's gonna be long... Petty, minuscule differences (ultimately two main things: an OCD level of rationality/making every breadcrumb fit perfectly and memorable character development) make all the difference. Back on this subtopic: The "Pell" and "5 flying abilities" is a perfect example. The context AND the messenger make it completely irrelevant now. I won't say that in the thread because it is an interesting speculation discussion, but I think Oda completely forgot about it by now since he has been forced to expand past the original number of characters exponentially since then.T
    This ties into the established content (99-100% agreement) vs. predictions/theories. Everything is still rational for haki as it is explained so far, it is clearly not when we apply to future fights/future capabilities (the reason why we are having this discussion). I'm not ignoring the rest of the post, the above aspects address them in my mind. Just copy-pasted that, but the upper responses have my further expansion. We can't be discussing both at the same time. If we break it down, even on haki, we should agree on 99+% of established content. Oda is still not contradicting those parts, but he is going have to establish "requirements" of haki mastery just like the "requirements" for an awakening. This is when we get our clarification, but the change in perspective on the "facade of complexity" is by far the shortest means of mutual agreement (biases are major variables of error for future content).
    Yes, and that still is on a minuscule scale when physical exertion starts. Why does one's appetite astronomically increase with prolonged exercise? Why does Luffy eat month's worth of food after each climax fight? Busoushoku should and is going to have different "haki energy" mechanics. Real life physiology is still being applied, and the fact that Oda follows all of this is again another example of the mind-blowing levels of research that his team is forced to do. Unless he just hires assistants that have various backgrounds to feed him the fundamental science on various topics as the inquiry comes up. => contrasting the [relative] lack of planning with haki. Revisions are rare for Oda. The fact that he has to keep going back on haki is the problem for this discussion itself.
    No...most definitely not. I'm thinking the problem is that you both don't see a problem, when there is a small, but potentially lethal problem if allowed to fester. To go back to the two foundational pillars of Oda's writing, his current trend is going to break the first pillar. His work is going to fall apart if he stops following 100% rationale. Discussions just like this are going to become more and more prevalent. Again, the fact that this does not happen for any other topic (and again, that's why I'm going to do nothing but push for microanalysis of any other part of the series) is my proof. It is still <0.5% of the content, but it is B.S. because it contradicts the very foundation of his writing style. The fact that he is blatantly admitting that he doesn't like people figuring out what's coming up is support, but more so worrying because this series is going to slowly fall apart. Being able to be preventative is key in medicine, so maybe that's why I'm much more prone to make it a bigger deal or even notice it than others.
    Again context vs. predictions. The universal cultural guidelines are the building blocks for each mangaka's individual take. I don't see how either of you can think that having a different bias is not going to affect the accuracy of predictions/theories. Maybe I need to ask this directly to both of ya @Yuuzume Do you truly think that your different bias is not going to affect the ability to match the thinking of someone with a different bias?
    Oh, no no no...Katakuri immediately apologizes. Just like angry mother, Big Mom just gives him "the look" and he backs off accordingly. A mother doesn't have to say "you're going to get spanked later". Just the same way Big Mom doesn't have to say "I'm gonna take your lifespan for insubordination". The context already implies this with the "dead" son (probably brought back for WSJ censorship and or proper editorial context in that real time deaths should only be saved for damn important stuff => vs. trying to add fake drama to a B.S. extension => on purpose since WCI is still rational on the surface but isn't when you apply Oda's patterns [we should all agree that there is never a real time death until Ace. This directly ties to the previous universal law/pillar of "death of a dream >>> exceeds physical death". Naturally, exceptions are almost impossible to be avoided, but it still applies throughout the remainder of the series. To go on a side tangent, Oda has to explain how Big Mom/Kaidou do not interfere for the rest of the series and I hate the idea of needing the Marines to imprison everyone that Luffy beats from here on out. This also goes against Oda's pattern of minimizing redundancies. Of course there are going to be some, but minimization is always attempted].
    Yes, it's theoretically possible...just damn hard to do. Both of your biases are too strong for this topic, but you're going to have to change your minds if we microanalyze other topics (the kenbunshoku/busoushoku energy consumption kind of falls into this, but not as effective since the unconscious haki bias still comes into play). I will never highlight what I've done other than trying to convey a point, but I gained my respect here from the work I've done. The accuracy is undoubtedly a key part in that. It kills discussions in many aspects, but there will always be things to discuss IF Oda doesn't change his writing style. I will have lots of material to truly "rip apart" and expose the layers and layers of contradiction if he keeps adding B.S. I truly think both of you do not understand the "mastery" of Oda's writing style. He is at such a high level of mastery primarily because it is so simple. Once again, microanalyzing ANY other part of the series is going to prove this.
    Yes, this is 100% correct. However, there is a contextual contradiction. Law in the most recent chapter expands on the correct strategy of maximizing the war potential (even one scratch until the main war is not allowed). Law has enough battle experience (his Room ability exaggerates it so he has lots of experience of the cost of pushing past normal physiological restrictions) to know that he is adding astronomical physical damage if he uses "hysterical strength" to escape. The fact that he is still rationale the panels before and after (as well as him still having no signs of physical damage (yes he contradicts his own rule, but he was ambushed by a fighter on an equal tier which is also why he is probably going to hide the wound). If he had used the "hysterical strength" he would have astronomical muscle damage right now (people are always bedridden immediately afterwards since it is literally DOMS on steroids).
    And my hunch was right. You are astronomically missing the level of literary mastery. That's the original source of my signature. Essentially 100% of foreign fans (I have come across) don't see the mastery for what it is worth (just like an art/music background is necessary to have a greater appreciation for a masterpiece work of art/composition).

    I'm going to purposefully use a Japanese culture analogy: we pride ourselves on hard work. When we have a passion, we will literally have OCD levels of commitment. This is instilled from grade school where "mastery" (to a realistic expectation level for the age of course) is expected for club activities. If you don't give it your 100%, then don't do it. This is why the work ethic theme is so common in manga. Most people fail along the way, but we are all raised to at least strive for it. So again, I have a hard time thinking cultural biases do not affect accuracy to the levels you guys are implying. The cultural bias is why I am more prone to come to the same conclusion, thus the higher accuracy. I think I've already established my bias (discussing the right topic, right wording, etc. will naturally expand the comprehension). However, both the non-Japanese perspective and the insufficient appreciation for the extent of literary "mastery" is undeniably the biggest factors to how long this discussion goes on.

    Damn...that break really helped out.
     
  9. Yuuzume

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    @Seiryu Thank you for your understanding,and it's also good that it allowed for a breather.

    1) Haki: You mention future problems concerning haki that haven't happened and suggest that they are going to happen in the future but based on the current information we have about haki,I don't see why a problem would occur in the future.While we've been mentioning high levels of haki at Katakuri's level often during the conversation,let's not forget that haki of any kind that has reached Katakuri's level of mastery isn't some cabbage that every character can pick up at the local market.You talk like every character (or at least most of them) who can wield haki can reach a level of mastery at Katakuri's level,but learning how to use haki is very much like learning any other skills.Much like there people in the series skilled in swordsmanship,marksmanship,etc,there are of course people who are skilled in haki.It's not like everyone can reach Katakuri's level of mastery just because they want to get stronger,that would simply be belittling haki too much.And going one step further,the people who can actually train haki to high enough levels will train in the type of haki that they are adept to and the type that matches their fighting style and makes best use of their overall abilities.It's not like all the characters in the new world all come from the same factory and are built to be capable of training in all types of haki and reaching the same level of mastery.So no,I don't think that every single character from here on will have Katakuri's level of kenbunshoku,Kaido's level of busoshoku (since it's presumably at a high level) or Shanks' level of haoshoku.Each character has their strengths and weaknesses as far as abilities go,including haki,and each has their own way of utilizing them.If such things,like speed,endurance,utilization,enemy compatibility,etc,didn't account for much in a fight and haki turns out to be as a godlike power as you describe all by itself,then there wouldn't be a need for characters to fight,right? The fights would end being "Shanks/HL (Haki Level):1000 VS Buggy/HL:50.....Shanks Wins" situations.So no,I don't think there will be an issue when future battles are concerned or that they'll turn into "predict the counter of the counter's counter" stare-downs.

    On a side note,Teach being able to use haki in the future doesn't mean that he was also able to do so in the past.


    2) Cultural differences: If we were to focus on predictions and not the information that is available to each reader,then I don't get why you focus so much on the cultural differences when it's only one factor out of many.If we're talking about predictions,then personality,culture,beliefs,values,experiences and anything that has contributed to making up a person would come into play.In this case,you insisting so much on the factor that is the cultural difference is like saying that no non-Japanese person can reach the same conclusion as a Japanese one and that all people of the same culture would reach the same conclusion.Just because Oda is Japanese doesn't mean that a non Japanese person can't reach the conclusion that Oda has planned or that a Japanese person will necessarily be able to do so.Being of the same culture as Oda is merely one similarity out of many and doesn't mean that others who don't share it can't reach the intended conclusion through their own train of thought.Similarly,one could say that only mangakas would be able to reach Oda's intended conclusion because only they could share Oda's perspective,and similarly say the same thing about any of Oda's traits that make up Oda himself.If not possessing those traits meant that one can't reach the intended conclusion and those traits superimpose on one another,then the only person left who would be able to reach Oda's intended conclusion would be Oda himself.

    So,I do agree with you in that culture is on of the factors that contributes to the conclusions a person reaches,but it's not like it is the only one.When predictions are concerned,there isn't anything to say that one factor is greater than any other,so I don't really see the need to put so much emphasis on the cultural differences.A non Japanese person can very well predict Oda's intended conclusion while a Japanese person may not,it's not like culture alone puts a limit on that.


    3) Unquestionable content other than haki: While you say that the problem is that I and @Kia can't see see the tiny problem that is still tantamount to a seed,in my perspective you're seeing a problem that doesn't exist.Since you yourself say that there hasn't been a contradiction/problem so far,I don't see the reason that led you to believe that there is going to be one in the future.if what led you to believe that there is going to be a problem with the content of the series in the future is not an existing problem and that you can somehow see/sense/feel that Oda has changed his style and that that is going to be the root of the problem,then I'm sorry but I can't see/sense/feel that change myself.Maybe it is really is the case that such a change has taken a place and that I'm simply not able to perceive it.Maybe it wasn't something that was available for me to perceive in the first place since I don't take Oda himself as a factor when I'm trying to reach a conclusion about the series and that you were perceptive enough to do so,especially since you focus on Oda himself when trying to reach conclusions about the series.Based on what I've seen about haki so far,I simply don't think that there's going to be a problem with it in the future.But regardless of whether or not there has been such a change,and regardless of whether anyone can sense that change if it really is the case,the fact still remains that stating that there is going to be a problem in the series' content in the future without any concrete indication and doing so this early is equivalent to judging someone as guilty without waiting for all the evidence to come to light.Thinking that they might be guilty is one thing,but outright stating it without solid proof isn't appropriate in making an accurate judgement.

    As far as awakening goes,I agree with you that there's no problem concerning it and it wasn't my intention to suggest such a notion.The reason I mentioned it was to showcase that it's similar to your opinion of haki.If awakening was the topic of discussion,then I could very well say that there are plenty of characters that should have been shown using it but weren't.To mention several such characters,there's Akainu,Aokiji,Kizaru,Hancock,Sengoku,Kuma,Ivankov,Trebol&Pica&Diamante (they introduced devil fruits to Doffy and were presumably devil fruits users before him),etc.Crocodile should have also been able to by the time he reached the level of a Shichibukai (the same level as Doffy),regardless of whether he trained after reaching that level.Whether or not some of these characters are shown to be able to use awakening in the future,the fact is that they weren't shown to use it in the past.Not to mention the details about the awakening.Do we know if the awakening is the same for all the types of devil fruits (the user can affect the world around them) or if it's even the same among fruits of the same type on the first place? Do we know the requirement for being able to use it? And if two awakened devil fruit users fight,whose ability is prioritized? What if both users want to alter the structure of the same piece of land? Does the power of the one who affected it first work or does the power of the stronger devil fruit user work? However,despite all these questions,it's not like there has been a problem or contradiction when awakening is concerned,we simply don't know much about it yet.While haki isn't as mysterious as the awakening by this point,questioning its future parameters and all the respective details about it and stating that it is going to present a problem in the future by creating contradictions is the same as someone doing the same thing for the awakening in my perspective.
     
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  10. Seiryu

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    #250 Seiryu, Jan 24, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2019
    There is no way I can respond on my phone so I’ll come back, read, and edit this later.

    Edit:
    You're welcome. I don't think I stated it directly, but if you don't want to do the "peaceful" way of microanalyzing other topics, I will have to slowly "rip apart" (to quote Tony) your posts. I may not be able to give an explanation to the level necessary (I'm trying to change deeply ingrained biases), but the context is and will only continue to support my bias. More on this later.
    At the very end of the series, this is going to be the norm. Every fan universally has a very high opinion of all of Shanks' executives. They are much less likely than any other character to not have any fruit abilities (Oda's having a clear trend among the current Yonkou). Thus, since we know that they do not have Vegapunk level technology, they have to have elite of the elite physical and haki based skills (context implies all aspects). Why else would Kizaru have complete submission to Beckmann? Context is already clearly implying that as Blackbeard's execs continue their training, they will all too be "admiral class" by the time the war comes. Because we have 80% of the puzzle completed, it isn't that hard to figure out the majority of the rest. We had a thread on predicting the major remaining arcs, and there was >90% agreement among all casual fans. I'm not spouting complete crap here, and I'm starting to trust my hunches more and more so avoidance to microanalyze other topics essentially is proving my point.

    Again, the "facade of complexity" is the 100% truth. You can take it negatively but I can 100% guarantee you will be forced to change your perspective as the series continues. You should and probably already figured out many key points for future events. Haki is clearly an exception (I probably should ask: do you think it was explained properly from the beginning? I don't see how anyone cannot see Oda's recent haki material (the anime appears to be further expanding the B.S. => very important side tangent: it is 100% B.S. because Luffy's kenbunshoku had to have come up in earlier fights. He is primarily dependent upon staying calm. For high level fighters, he has to have an "emotional connection" to them for his style of kenbunshoku to work. However, this, like any other skill, is more universally applied for easier situations/easier opponents. Thus, every single non-climax fight since 3D2Y should have shown Luffy being able to read into the future. The poorly planned B.S. is why a great majority of people here, you two are in the minority and that is undoubtedly a big part of your individual biases for these topics, have negative view on WCI. It is clearly "different" from Oda's writing style for the other 20.5 years of manga content. I keep going back to a "pro-Oda" bias because that is what it is. You still accept his WCI work as 100% rationale, when it is clearly deviating from the established patterns. Oda's "mastery" is so extensive that casual fans are picking up on it completely unconsciously. WCI is "not what I'm used to". None of them have been able to verbalize the reason why, and I'm going to trust my gut again here in that you both are having the same conscious/subconscious reaction: I do not want to accept the fact that this masterpiece is so damn simple. You're biases on kenbunshoku will probably skew this, but again, the flow of how the fights continue to progress is going to only continue to support my bias. Even the databooks are just revisional clearing up. The context is what my bias is based on, and Oda's desire is to have as little discrepancies among fans. Because people like yourselves do not think haki has to be a trait any upper tier fighter [from a physical/martial arts perspective only since technology/fruit abilities can allow for a higher ranking without the need for haki], he has to go back and state officially that they all do have at least busoushoku or kenbunshoku. Naturally, the greater the martial arts training, i.e. physical capabilities, they possess, the higher the chances of having both. That's just the physics/nature/real life physiology of it. Again, the "phenomenon"/not real bias is naturally a huge deterrent to accuracy. The incorrect interpretation of each character's "power ranking" is the clear evidence of this.) as revisional clean up. Same thing like before, if you truly want to think haki is thoroughly planned out from the start, I'm going to stop completely because the "pro-Oda" bias is way too strong (to the point of irrationality, and again "irrational" relative to the level of analysis both of you display constantly).

    Just to clarify: we should all universally agree that haki would not be such a point of debate (again "real" One Piece material leaves no room for debate once we get the full arc/related material) if we get Rayleigh's explanations from the start. Oda obviously had a plan from the start. He just put much less effort/planning into it (relative to the hundreds if not thousands of hours he does for other arcs/major points). One Piece is so close to universally appealing because of how much "love" Oda put into "his baby". The quality of his "love" is decreasing with his damn pride or whatever eccentric trait that is the source of his B.S. (again, still a very tiny percentage that is technically not "statistically significant" relative to the percentage of manga material. However, the fact that it is at such a high level of B.S. that casual fans identify it unconsciously is why I started describing it as the first medically valid warning signs of a fatal disease. It can be fixed now, but there is a sudden cliff/point of no return. It grows exponentially/snowballs, and that is true for any progressive disease/real life problem [assuming the problem is of such magnitude to be on the same tier as a progressive disease]). This isn't my bias, this is just how nature works. You both are more than rationale enough to see this and apply it to the relevant situations or even second-hand stories. It is going to be unconscious to let your bias skew that change in perspective to not see what I'm talking about.

    So to get back to something @Kia mentioned, I can change because I at least have the desire to change. I'm still a blunt @-hole, but constantly discussing with people just gives me more and more experience to learn from. I never proofread, but my gut says the flow of the above parts should be enough to change at least part of your biases.
    How do you explain Skypeia and mantra? Isla or whatever her name was, had NO training at all (she is shown having a similar level of sensitivity from birth). Kenbunshoku of that level is going to be the norm. This is exactly why I HATE it. It is going to KILL the action. It appears to be part of Oda's plan, but his B.S. is why I doubt he is going to find a 100% rational explanation for it to be quality action.
    Just so that I don't get criticized of "ignoring something" (I'm having to change as we go along), the "anti-real life haki bias" is again why there is inaccuracy on the source of each character's "power ranking". Again, it is much more simple than your bias is exaggerating it to. Oda is not that creative. He cannot keep track of exponential variable for exponential numbers of characters. Why else is he going back and revising that people that were not shown to use haki 100% do have it? The context is fluid, and because he did not plan it out thoroughly enough, he created HUGE contextual errors (for now only haki related, the other B.S. is still minuscule). I'm rationale enough to not bash Oda unnecessarily (I am a bigger "pro-Oda arguer" than anyone except for his B.S.). However, he did his best to stay consistent an keep things 100% rational relative to the context at that moment in time (Ace/Blackbeard is clearly the best example). We all should universally agree that the fight goes differently if it is current manga material (i.e. with the changes to fighting mechanics).

    I've said it before, but you are overthinking it. The Shanks/Buggy example is 100% the truth. We all know Buggy is a gag character (he's Oda's favorite villain, which is why he is given gag/miraculous situations to keep him relevant, so technically, Buggy shouldn't even have haki based on how weak he is so the rating is 1000>>>0). Context implies it is a no contest, Shanks wins with his eyes completely closed (he can just use a haoshoku wave to KO Buggy), sort of fight. The context is and should be 100% undeniable. I may not give an adequate level of explanation (relative to how strong the bias is), but the content/context does not lie. And again, the limited perspective on how damn vast Oda's detail/connections go is a big point that is literally skewing your perspective.

    I don't think I've said it, but that is shocking to me because every other person with your guy's level of fandom/microanalysis have picked up on the depth of the "masterpiece". I'm thinking this appreciation is more directly related to years of experience rather than level of analysis then. So I'll say it again: there are only two roads the series can take. 1) Oda sticks to his mastered writing style and all planned out details fit 100% together or 2) he continues his B.S. and the series will slowly, but steadily unravel from the "facade of complexity" being exposed (more and more content will be unplanned and contradict previous content...I think I've been typing context instead of content now that I type this out...). Again, the fact that we have this extensive debate is my proof => micro-analyzing anything else is going to be quick n short.
    Then you are just contradicting what Oda has already said. He said so himself years ago about the Ace/Blackbeard fight. You are also being blinded by your bias on the recent databooks. You don't pay attention to the SBS/databooks/etc., but I have been saying it this whole time. So do whatever you want with your perspective. As it is now, it is a bias that 100% contradicts Oda.
    I've had to try to find the right analogy/content/explanation to overcome the strong bias. Just realized I'm just going to rehash above points, so if the above didn't do it already...I don't think anything I write will.
    You are underestimating on how "unconscious" biases impact everything (views, interpretation, and of course analysis/prediction). I just have to reference the inaccurate view of "mastery". There are scales/bell curves for everything in life. Most of us will never get to experience what it is like to be in the top 1% for any skill because so few people even get to that point. In general, being able to analyze from multiple perspectives (being able to remove as much bias as possible) is a universally beneficial trait. You can have the answer right in front of you (Oda already stating Ace/Blackbeard have haki when they fight), but your bias is going to skew everything related to it because it is a negative bias.
    You also underestimate how much "pride" all Asian cultures have. All cultures naturally have pride, all of the Asian cultures I have tons of exposure to, all have a detrimental level of pride. This is exactly why our culture all had a negative bias against foreigners. The times have changed for the better, so the cultural "pride" is forced to be a more appropriate level, it does not change the fact that it is a natural part of ourselves. Hopefully the above already addressed the content aspect.
    The "contradiction" is your perspective on Ace/Blackbeard and the "anti-real life haki" bias" and this whole discussion. It is clearly there. We do not have this discussion if haki is planned and put in the content properly. A big part of your bias is the lack of Oda's revisionalistic corrections. He is primarily providing the correct haki context in outside sources.
    See WCI and casual fans.
    The "pro-Oda bias" is what's coming into play here. The only thing I can think of is that the limited number of years of reading is why the patterns/writing style I constantly reference are literally not ingrained in either of you yet (which is exactly why you two react differently to WCI than most of the fans here, and from what I can tell indirectly, a great majority of One Piece fans internationally).
    Contextually: Punk Hazard is the proof of their awakening. It also shows the different "tier" they are compared to Doffy/Cracker, which again directly relates to their level of "martial arts training"/"physical capabilities". If I try to explain it, the admirals have both more stamina and greater strength, so they produce their respective elements on a completely different scale (per the 100% rationale, because Cracker<Doffy, he creates only crackers at the size of his armored dolls. Since Doffy>Cracker, he can create strings the size of large buildings. Aokiji/Akainu>>>Doffy, so they create half an island's worth). More 100% rationality behind every aspect.
    I 100% agree, and the "requirements" should reflect this. Oda's "mastery" of every single detail is why the context of Pluton is the rational explanation. He stopped training because he was more than strong enough for his area of the Grand Line. He easily defeats any opponent with the Alabasta/sand environment alone. Now that he lost his "dream" (>>>greater than physical death), he is forced to train and stay relevant for whatever role Oda has in the future. More 100% connection of every "real" breadcrumb.
    We have examples for all classes (paramecia and logia create potentially infinite amounts of their element) while zoans have an astronomical increase to their physical traits (most notably: durability). This also 100% matches the trend of physical size normally reflecting physical capabilities (obvious exceptions are present but even weak giants like Pound are drawn with physically unfit/untrained builds/lacking muscle mass).
    We'll just have to wait and see. My gut reaction is the Cracker "revision". Rather than physically "using" the land, it seeps and materializes up from the land. From this perspective, the rational explanation that jumps to mind is that Aokiji/Akainu have constant activation for such an extended period of time is what allows for the semi-permanent change to the island (it should eventually wear off and return to normal). Thus, proximity is the key. There is no elemental/fruit advantage (except if the user's physical level/training level is different). Since Aokiji/Akainu are literally 100% equal in combat capabilities (confirmed by the subjective description), there was an equal 50-50 split.

    One Piece is much more simplistic than your perspectives are exaggerating it to. It may initially seem like it kills the fun, but it shouldn't. The world is a crappy place, and being cognizant of that is only a negative if you let it affect what you find joy in. Same thing for One Piece. Knowing how it works shouldn't change how impactful a moment/scene is. Knowing what's coming naturally does decrease it of course. However, Oda is clearly underestimating how many big twists have to come up. Continued B.S. is going to make these less impactful because it will contradict something from the B.S. changes. I will reference the B.S. fruit powers immediately creating loopholes on defeating Kaidou. He can try to write around it, but it is a loophole that has loopholes to contradict his patchwork content (the kunoichi's power can still be used as long as she touches Kaidou => bind her to Luffy's hand in his awakening/Gear Fourth form).

    Rather than a universally agreeable situation of defeat, we immediately have contradictions. This is the B.S. I am talking about. You may not interpret it as B.S., but this is solely due to the limited perspective on how perfectly "real" material fits together. And this is where the microanalysis of anything else comes in (I've been purposefully highlighting most instances of this).
    And I think my above answer should adress this. Haki has much more variables, so naturally it has more room for inaccurate interpretation.
     
  11. Yuuzume

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    Well,i thanked you for understanding my being late in replying,said it was good because you said yourself that you enjoyed the breather that resulted in and summed up the scattered relevant parts of the conversation into more compact sections,so I'm not sure how I strayed off from the "peaceful" way of micro analyzing others topics really.Because you had to reply to both me and Kia,you had to repeat the same topic every few sections,which is understandable,but if you're so intent on me replying to each part of the comment separately,I guess that works as well.Either way,you're of course free to slowly rip apart any comment you want to.

    Having haki and being able to use haki at a level similar to Katakuri is like comparing babies to fully grown adults.It's one thing for most characters to have haki of a certain level by the end of the series and another for all of them to have haki at Katakuri's level.If things go as you describe,then the marine admirals would be become mediocre characters and the rest of the marines would basically be walking punching bags for all the pirates,since you suggest that they'd have Katakuri's level of haki.

    As for avoiding to micro analyze any topic,I don't recall doing any such thing.Most of the parts your comment referred to the effects of cultural difference and all the content of the series other than haki being unquestionable,topics to which I replied and also included the answer to the awakening part.And the rest is about haki itself,which is the main topic and has ironically almost become a minor one,to which I also replied.The only part that I didn't refer to is the topic about the consumption rate of kenbunshoku and busoshoku haki respectively,to which I've clearly stated my opinion that is that characters should be able to recover haki even while using it,and for their consumption rate of haki to be lower than their recovery rate.Unless we get to know any of that,we can only speculate and not state anything concretely other than the known fact that "haki runs out". Even in your speculation that Kaido himself could use kenbunshoku haki continuously for a week,that would mean that he would be unable to use haki after that period of time and would leave himself vulnerable,and it's an action that I don't think any character would even attempt,and that's merely based on the aforementioned speculation.

    If you think that haki wasn't explained properly since the beginning,then that should mean that you've been expecting an inconsistency to appear since a time close to the marinefold war and yet,like we've already concluded,there hasn't been an inconsistency so far ever since that time.Ever since haki was introduced,Oda has only built upon it and hasn't gone back to renege on anything he has stated about it or introduced a new aspect of it that goes against a previously established aspect.If an inconsistency hasn't appeared during all the time that people,according to that you say,should have thought that an inconsistency was going to appear sooner or later,then I don't see why one would necessarily appear in the future.

    You seem to think that I'm saying that "an inconsistency will not appear in the future" but I'm not saying that.I'm merely saying that it's not certain that an inconsistency will appear,and that is based on the fact that there hasn't been one so far.I'm more than open to the possibility of an inconsistency appearing in the future,but I'm also open to the possibility of one not appearing.I don't harbor any "pro-Oda" bias,and keeping an open mind to both possibilities is actually quite rational in my opinion.On the contrary,while trusting your instincts and thoughts is fine,I don't see how you think that it's rational to state that "an inconsistency will definitely appear in the future with a 100% possibility" without any solid and irrefutable basis.


    Again,an inconsistency has not appeared regardless of how thoroughly he planned the introduction of haki.Even if you feel like it's lacking compared to the rest of the series,that doesn't mean that it's not thorough in its own right.Rayleigh's explanation and it's simple aspects that are not too numerous are quite a solid base by themselves and don't leave much room for inconsistencies and error as long as Oda is relatively careful about it.

    As for changing any biases,I still don't know why you think I harbor such a thing on this subject.From the start,I've been saying that it's simply "not 100% certain that an inconsistency will appear". I didn't claim that there would not be one in the future.As a matter of fact,when Jawa introduced Ace's story in the conversation,I admitted that it was an inconsistency before we clarified that Ace had merely "unlocked" haki and did not know how to use it,thus reaching the conclusion that it wasn't an inconsistency in the end.I certainly don't mind if one appears,but your basis for saying that it will definitely happen is that you feel that Oda's writing style has changed and that that change will lead to an inconsistency and simply state that the point that led you thinking so are the "B.S. changes" that you say are the WCI and Wano arcs.That's like someone going to another person and saying to them: "I feel like there is a problem with you leg,so it will start hurting in the future". Whether or not that turns out to be the case,how is the person to believe that it will definitely happen without any proof or explanation.Trying to prove that there is a problem with the haki content of the series was done in the conversation between you,me,Jawa and Kia previously.Specific points that were potential inconsistencies were mentioned,some of which may even turn out to be inconsistencies in the future depending on how Oda treats the aspects surrounding them.

    I've already done so previously,based on the points about haki that we can derive from Rayleigh's explanation.As I've mentioned before,Aisha,and even Otohime and Coby,merely unlocked haki and couldn't use it at will,much less master it to the point of Katakuri's level.

    I don't really recall criticizing you of anything,but sorry if I gave you such an impression.In any case,I didn't claim anything about Oda,that's something Oda himself can claim.Whether Oda plans everything about haki before writing it,just goes along with the flow and thinks it up on the spot or even if he's writing random stuff about haki,it makes no difference to me.If an inconsistency appears,I'll admit it but I won't go out of my way to say that one is definitely going to appear when I don't have a reason to think such a thing.As for past characters having haki in the past,having unlocked doesn't equal to being able to use it.Ace is the best example of that as he had unlocked it but hadn't trained in using it.

    You're the one overthinking it here,Shank and Buggy are the first two character that popped up in my mind to use as an example.The result of their fight is completely irrelevant,the point I was trying to make is that that was going to be what fights would be like if the sole deciding factor was haki and everyone had mastered it to the godlike levels you describe.

    I still don't know why you think I'm biased towards one side when my positions has been neutral from the start.I didn't say that an inconsistency would never appear,I just don't think that it definitely will.Does my not blindly agreeing to your "an inconsistency will appear with 100% certainty" opinion that is based solely on you feeling that Oda's writing style has changed make me biased? I personally don't so.As for this debate being extensive,it's not due to the topic but due to us prolonging it to this point.The logical ending point would have been the point where Jawa withdrew,which is the point when we had examined all the points that might have been inconsistencies and proved whether or not there was currently a problem with haki.


    I've periodically asked you for some proof that serves as the basis for your opinion.If there is any piece of official information that states that either Ace or Teach had unlocked haki and were also able to use it by the time of their fight,then I don't know why you haven't shown it whenever I asked but you're more than welcome to do so.Seeing solid proof which served as the basis for your opinion would certainly be extremely beneficial.As for me harboring any bias on this topic,I've said it multiple times already but I'm open to both possibilities.

    Are you saying that this pride prevents any non Asian person from reaching the same conclusions about One Piece and that it allows all people of ancient origin to somehow reach a conclusion that is exclusive to all of them and unavailable for any other person? While having extraordinary pride may be true,it's merely a single cultural difference (assuming that the other culture doesn't have a corresponding trait),I don't see how it would limit other people from reaching the same conclusions as Asian people.That makes is sound like individuality is equivalent to solely one's culture.

    My perspective of Ace's and Teach's fight is merely what all of us saw happen in the manga.During their fight neither used manga.If Oda had suggested that both of them were capable of using haki at the time by doing something like stating that "all people can unlock haki and all people can use haki upon unlocking it",then it would create a contradiction since Ace and Teach didn't use any.However,Oda stated that "not all people can unlock haki and not all can train in using it" instead,making it logically possible for Ace and Teach to not have been able to use haki at the time of their fight.

    You're quoting a message saying "I don't take Oda himself as a factor when I'm trying to reach conclusions..." and then you mention "pro-Oda bias"...how does that make sense? I've clearly been saying that it's possible for both A and B to happen,so why do you think that I'm biased towards one possibility just because I don't blindly accept either possibility as certain?

    The punk hazard is an example of awakening that I'm quite fond of actually,this is quite logical.I'll still wait for more info about the admirals and their powers,but this is an explanation that I'm in favor of strongly.And with those two out of the way,there are several more characters who should have logically been shown to have awakened,like I've mentioned previously.As for Cracker,he can simply make crackers like Magellan can make poison (since there wasn't any decrease dents made on the ground by Cracker conjuring his biscuit soldiers),it's not a sign of awakening.Doffy on the other hand didn't just create strings,he altered the stone buildings to string.

    And Doffy's plans to "wreck havoc in the world" should been fulfilled through the SMILE business,it's not like he had to train either after becoming a Shichibukai.Since he was able to do so while being a Shichibukai that rose to position through power (not like Buggy),so should Crocodile since he was able to do the same.Then there is also Moria and Hancock for the same reason,etc.

    Normal Logia users can do that already with enough stamina and time.The awakening was stated to be an ability that directly impacted the world around the user,not the user impacting the world through themselves.If Akainu making magma and scorching the floor was awakening,then Luffy stretching to smash a boulder would also be awakening.As for Zoans,there haven't been any examples that were different from the standard Zoan user.If an example existed,it could possibly be said that Chopper is an awakened zoan user who activated his awakening through external stimuli (rumble ball) and then trained in it,instead of using his own strength to awaken.


    What if users fight over control of the same piece land? What if Aokiji tried to make ice out of Akainu's magma,which he made out of solid ground by using the awakening? Would is be impossible cause Akainu altered it first,thus establishing "authority" over it,or would it be possible if Aokiji was stronger than Akainu,regardless of who altered it first? There are just aspects of awakening that we'll have to wait and see the details of.You said that agree about having to wait to see the details of awakening and don't consider it flawed content yet you don't wait to see how haki is explained and judge as flawed content before it's even revealed.Aren't the two aspects similar? So why treat one as flawed and simply wait for the other?


    The results of the fights so far involve universally agreeable situations of defeat? Luffy could use gear 4th during the fishman island,so why dind't he use that to defeat Hody? He didn't even use it to smash the Noah when the whole fishman island was in danger.Why didn't he use gear 3rd to defeat the Pacifistas at Sabaody after the time skip? Fights involve various abilities,out of which haki is merely one of them,so how can haki's possibilities be more complex then the results of a fight since those possibilities are merely one part that contributes in the result of a fight?

    The limit of One Piece's complexity or the extend of its facade of simplicity is something that depends on Oda himself.The point where an inconsistency appears will the the so called limit of its complexity.That limit depends on Oda and it's not something anyone other than him,perhaps not even him himself,can claim to know the point of with 100% certainty.

    I respect your opinion,particularly because it is viewed from a perspective different than my own,and that different viewpoint contributes in the experience of viewing it makes it enjoyable.However,you're not trying to convince me of it.You've been stating your opinion,which is based on your instinct,as a fact,assuming and claiming that it's 100% correct and expecting me to blindly believe it.That's only beneficial as far as allowing me to learn about your perspective,but it's not convincing or allows me to temper my own views on the subject through discussion and quite possible alter them if I'm convinced that they need altering.Instead,the previous discussion that you,me,Jawa and Kia had about haki,albeit we reached the conclusion that there were no inconsistencies presently,allowed to become even more aware of the major haki points that make up the ambiguous haki content and allowed me to pay more attention to them than I would have done o in the future.It also allowed me to keep my mind even more open to the possibility of future inconsistencies than before ,allowing me to view them even more neutrally.

    If your view is based on your instinct and you treat it as an already established fact,then it only gives me the choice of either blindly agreeing with it or disagreeing with it and doesn't give me much room to impact my own view based on it.If you want to convince me of your opinion,then I'm extremely open to you doing so and it would be both beneficial and enjoyable for me.However,if you simply want me to agree with your opinion and agree on it without being convinced of it,then as regrettable as it may be,there wouldn't be a point to continuing the debate further than we have already done so.
     
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  12. Seiryu

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    Nah...that's just me. I know myself well enough that now that I know where the discrepancy stems from, I cannot change how I am going to reply. I'll just address it now:
    It is something completely out of your control since you choose to stick to 100% definition of "canon" material. Oda wants all of this other stuff to be taken as "canon" material, so it is necessary to have the full picture. From the SBS, databooks, etc., Oda provides necessary clarifications, additional info, etc. on many topics (and especially haki since it is by far his biggest "mistake"; again he obviously has a plan, but did not plan haki out as much as everything else in the series).

    The missing haki info naturally skews the analysis of people's power levels/"combat capabilities". From this, a chain reaction of inaccuracies stemmed. Again, you are 100% correct in your perspectives. I have been trying to say this entire time is that there is additional insight being overlooked. I may not be able to explain it to overcome intrinsic biases, but I'll at least try.
    Huh? Content implies all of the admirals have Katakuri level kenbunshoku. I don't know where this idea of vice-admirals having it and admirals not having it is coming from. Because Oda uses so few variables to "power-up" people, context of fighting mechanics makes it a necessity for all Yonkou/admirals/similar leveled fighters (Blackbeard's execs when they finish training their new abilities and all of Shanks' execs currently). It is not an absolute necessity (I would bet the Mugiwaras as a whole will not get it => if anything only the main 4 fighters [Zoro, Jinbei, and Sanji will eventually get it...Jinbei may have it already based on his implied combat capabilities]. However, they will make up for this deficit with Vegapunk level technology/Vegapunk's assistance [based on my discussions with Pac-man, Vegapunk giving the ability users their awakening makes a whole lot of sense and changed my initial bias of wanting only Luffy with an awakening]).

    Correct analysis of a person's "combat capabilities" is where accuracy on the match-ups, differentiation of tiers, etc. is possible.
    Especially now that I figured out the source I will literally only refer to that. That's just how I am. If we don't change topics, I'll just stop responding because I see where the subtle misinterpretations stemmed from. This is still avoiding my main point: Oda has a much greater literary "mastery" than you think. It is 100% perfection for "real" content. Whether consciously or unconsciously, you are avoiding my direct questions and highlighting of this (it may be later, but from our previous discussions and the top of this response).100
    100% wrong. We see the admirals create an external "force field". Based on haki mechanics, this will NEVER come up again. The "general plan" of haki (my debates with Jawa) is in Oda's head. It is poorly planned and poorly established. If we nit pick at the details, there are inconsistencies. Again, "real" content does not allow for misinterpretation. This discussion itself is the proof of Oda's poor planning.
    Kia's work makes her understand how difficult it is to change an intrinsic characteristic. From a selfish standpoint, I want people to get more accurate because they can then pick up stuff I miss. However, if you don't match Oda's biases/writing styles, then this in itself creates inaccuracies. For now, focusing on any other point is only going to go in circles (I incorrectly tried to explain from a micro scale when I should have gone macro scale first).


    This is especially just for personal inquiry: what makes you think I perceived an "attack"?
    And Oda is telling us that he had trained it. He isn't a "prodigy" like Isla (or whatever her name is). Ace and Sabo had to extensively train daily just to be decent fighters. They completely lack the "natural talent". The 100% content is the evidence. Everything should fit if you piece the details together.
    I'll tag @Pacquiao8 @Admiral Ryokugyu since they keep track of these sorts of things. If you don't want to take my opinion (I should more than have proven my memory is accurate a great majority of the time with only sporadic discrepancies). They can provide the direct point of reference.
    From a theoretical perspective, yes. I'm younger than Oda, but I'm definitely more of the exception for my generation. Most of the people my age completely rebel against the Japanese culture (why people are so obsessed with foreign cultures and especially America). This is exactly why the "arts" are all dying off in Japan. There are no successors to pass on the culture onto (of course macro speaking).
    And this is the main point: Oda is telling us that the manga is incorrect relative to the true "combat capabilities". It is 100% accurate for a top tier fight at that time, but it is 100% outdated. Once you get your official reference, things can slowly fall into place. So I'll address things after that (I'll jump on the tangent now: your perspective has a natural bias against my opinion. Even if I give the right answer, your bias is going to misinterpret part of it => the whole you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink cliche). I am thankfully seeing that focusing on the micro picture was 100% wrong. Focusing on the macro picture (inaccurate haki foundation) first, is where things will get resolved. Thankfully, you have patience greater than most, so you're able to put up with my blunt writing style. I am curious to get some feedback on "criticism" aspect though.
    No...you are trying to be "neutral", but you are inaccurate based on missing information. Your bias against my bias is why you are exaggerating this. Of course Oda is a factor. However, "real" content is much more simple BUT at the same time much more expansive than you think. That is the beauty of the "facade of complexity".
    Again, 100% of real content is going to fit perfectly. Magellan is a paramecia, which is why he can create almost as much "element" as he wants (as long as it is directly attached to his body. Mr. 3 and all other "elemental" paramecia are the same way which is why we had logia misinterpretations in the early years). Cracker is 100% stated to have an awakening. Have @Kia confirm this. She is really good at knowing the exact chapters of things. Plus, she's got a similar level of memory, so I would think she remembers the confirmation off the top of her head too.
    The content to contradict this is location. The level of fighters is many MANY tiers different. Even without full accuracy on haki, you should be able to see this.
    No...they too are limited to their own "body". An awakening is when something they do not touch becomes their element. Because it is "creating" from nothing, it takes a greater amount of stamina. => any logia user is going to create their super attack/final attack from their body (like the last scene of Ace/Blackbeard). It is possible to do the same with an awakening, but the attack would be smaller. Again, Oda is going to have 100% rationale with everything. You have to change your perspective/biases to match his if you want to be more accurate.
    Proximity. That's the rational answer. Of course stamina would be the next major variable (if Aokiji had less energy, Akainu gains ground and it is not a 50-50 split). As for the other parts, I would assume once something is changed, it cannot be further used by someone else. Thus, Aokiji cannot change the magma to ice (you could completely negate an attack). Just like my anti-future kenbunshoku, this is B.S. for fight mechanics (Oda may prove me wrong, but fights are going to have loopholes because of the "random" aspect of seeing the future. He is probably just going to write it off that someone got unlucky on the timing of not having the foresight activate at the critical moment).

    As for the second half, the Ace/Blackbeard point all over again. Everything is relative to having the proper perspective. We both can agree on the rationale behind awakening fundamentals. You are inaccurate on haki. I've been trying to point out the correct perspective, but it necessitates changing intrinsic parts of you/your perspective. Ultimately, it seems like the Ace/Blackbeard confirmation will be the main trigger. We can address the cascade of previous micro-scale stuff once the macro-scale foundation is set (go through and have essentially 100% agreement). The predictive aspect is where I look forward to your perspective (I am going to miss things). We do have quite a bit to clean up/clarify first but one correct step at a time (again, not ignoring, I have to go through the right steps first).
    Easy...there was absolutely no need. KKG is so mad about Hody/Gyojin Island because the baddies do not match the New World level fighters. However, it is 100% accurate that no one else present can take Hody down. Of course the fight would be over in an instant with Gear Fourth, but that contradicts the whole point of a manga and excitement/drama. Oda's ability to create exciting fights and keep it rational for so long (antithesis of Dragon Ball) is a big part of the "mastery". And again, the mastery stems from excessive simplicity (it's impossible to keep track of otherwise).
    Noah is because he had to introduce the ancient/original Sea Kings. Based on how fast Gear Fourth is implied, he could have activated and crushed it (again the "plot armor" is the excitement of revealing it when necessary). Gear Third is WAY too slow. Pacifista are way too fast. Essentially, the best way to think about Gear Third is that he does gain massive power (manga logic is that he has the muscle mass of a giant), but his speed is his normal body (not Gear Second/Fourth). He is way too slow for legit fighters (which is why he has to activate at least Gear Second for any legitimate threat). His baseline speed has increased since previous arcs, but there are clear differences in the tiers/levels of speed for each gear (harder to tell the arc to arc progression).
    Which is exactly why I use the term "combat capabilities". You have to average all of the main factors. Haki is one of the major factors, but with the "facade of complexity" it is probably simpler than what you have in mind.
    And now my new goal is to prove to you that this bias is 100% wrong. It is as simple as I say it is. The rationale behind awakenings is the immediate reference point. This is EXACTLY why I want to discuss anything else. It is going to be a very straightforward and easy explanation. Oda's literary mastery is mastery of details/rationality. You will see 100% of real content match up. This is when you will see B.S. for B.S. It is going to destroy the series. THAT is why I "overreact" to it. Literally every other fan does not see it coming, but if you see that 100% of real content is 100% matching every breadcrumb, you will see that B.S. contradicts this mastery of rationale. I can see that I already started to change your perspective, so this should be more and more of a possibility in your mind.
    I literally do not care what people think of me. However, no one can question my fandom/knowledge of One Piece. I am blunt and I assume that is where the "cocky"/"@-hole" perspective comes from and my personality is that I do not care (why stress about something I can't control). I will make an effort to try to minimize that (I made requests to the admins back when I was still new to the forum. Similarly I want to know what wording/phrase made you think I perceived an attack, when I did not. I will retaliate when I get fed up with taking too many jabs from someone though). Ultimately, it is a selfish driven goal. The more accurate you/Kia/Jawa/any fan here, the better discussions I get for myself/the more enjoyable reads I get.

    Pac-man is probably a great example. He's got a much bigger pro-Jinbei bias, but he's able to come up with completely rational situations from what I analyze. However, one tiny bias is going to make all analysis inaccurate (this entire discussion). I don't care about being "right" or "wrong". I only care about discussing "real" content ("OMG the One Piece" is probably my biggest One Piece pet peeve, which is why I'm here vs. the bigger forums). Because the story has steadily gotten dragged out, there is a huge cap on things to discuss. However, the more accurate perspectives we get, the more discussions are possible.
     
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  13. Admiral Ryokugyu

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    Ace had unlocked haki and had been able to use it even before the fight against Blackbeard. ( source: Ace Novel, supervised by Oda )
     
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  14. Kia

    Kia
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    #254 Kia, Jan 28, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2019
    Okay I was called upon so here’s a few things:

    Cracker creates and controls infinite biscuits. upload_2019-1-28_14-44-2.jpeg He claps his hands, they appear out of thin air, then he turns them into dust to shape them, etc. He does the same thing with the broken ones to regenerate the soldiers which is why Luffy had to eat them to stop him. If he had an awakened DF, then he would’ve been turning the ground and such into biscuits. I checked the chapters and the anime. Everything showed new biscuits generated in the air, not from other objects transforming. So it seems that it’s simply the nature of the fruit as he described it. He’s not impacting anything else. Katakuri and Doffy both turned other things into their element/DF power as their awakening.

    Oda told us that he trained, yes but he didn’t say that he trained his Haki. The Haki information came from the novel and it stated (see the earlier post of mine with the summary) https://opforum.net/posts/920759/ that Ace unlocked it (Busoshoku) during a fight with a Vice Admiral and didn’t even know what it was when it happened. Other than that, we have no other information about him and Haki besides his unconscious use of Haoshoku when he was in grey terminal as a child (unless his victor cards have already come out and I missed it but even still that wouldn’t show training). That was never trained. So it stands to reason that he didn’t train either form of Haki. Though it’s not spelled out either way. So it’s open to interpretation as far as I can see.
     
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  15. Pacquiao8

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    Would like to add that there's no certainty if he can be able to use it at will. The only hint we have that he can is a hypothetical action figure (unreliable). But yes, he can use Armament and Conqueror's Haki.

    @Seiryu senpai, @Yuuzume
     
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  16. Yuuzume

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    You say that I stick to 100% canon material while ignoring the SBS,databooks,etc and yet I've been asking you if you have proof to support your claims out of those information sources,and you haven't shown me any.I don't object to using information out of those sources at all but you haven't shown me a piece of information out of those sources which conclusively proves your claim.

    And I've been asking for that info as proof of your point and yet you've been saying that Ace and Teach should have been able to use haki as an answer,without using any info to back that up.Having that particular opinion is fine of course,but it's not "info" about haki,it's an opinion for as long as it's not proven.I don't see any information that proves that either Ace or Teach could use haki during their fight,we know that they dind't use any during their fight and both those aspects fit their profile and the information we know about haki.One is proud of his devil fruit abilities and fighting skills and the other hasn't been seen training throughout the series and sought only a quick power up in the form of devil fruit abilities.Coupled with the fact that not all people can unlock and train in using haki respectively,I don't see any problem with them not using any during their fight.And as far as status and location goes,we've seen people of similar status,and who were also stationed in the new world,not use haki during their fights,which fits the bill as well and connects to Teach and Ace not being able to use any.

    I don't know why you think I said that Admirals don't have high level haki while vice admirals do,but it's not what I said.I said that if everyone has Katakuri level haki,like you suggest,then the Admirals having it will not amount to any special accomplishments at all.To quote Jawa's words from the debate thread "If everyone's super,no one is",hence is everyone has Katakuri level haki then that would make it lose its worth.So like I've said before,I don't think that Katakuri level haki will be something as commonplace as you suggest it will be.That also matches that level of haki being introduced at a time that we have already seen absolute top level powerhouses in the form of even the Yonko,and not even showing those kind of characters using it,hence being logical if haki of that level is scarce even among the top level characters.


    And yet you've been focusing on haki to a great extent,so much so that all other abilities seem to not play any significant role,when that is not the case.A character's combat capabilities stem from each one of their abilities and their capability to combine them smoothly during battle.It doesn't only come down to whose haki is stronger.

    Avoiding your main point? This whole conversation is about that point,which is to decide if haki can be considered as part of that "100% perfect" content or not.You've been saying that haki should not be included in that content but you don't mention a reason as to why.You're suggesting that haki diverts from the rest of Oda's content but you're presenting that opinion as a fact without basing it on any proof and simply expect me to accept it without even being convinced if it.Trying to conclude whether that opinion is 100% correct or not is what you,me,Jawa and Kia did previously when we tried to determine whether or not there were any conclusive problems with the haki content.At that time,we reached the conclusion that parts of the haki content were ambiguous at best,not contradictory to the rest of the haki content.That doesn't mean that there will won't necessarily be a problem in the future,but it also means that there is not problem right now.So saying that the haki content diverts from the rest of Oda's content with 100% certainty without proving that it is isn't really convincing to me.

    We've already covered that particular point of the haki content so I don't know why you're bringing it up again,but it's currently not an inconsistency.Whether or not it comes up again depends on how busoshoku haki will progress in the future.However,regardless of whether or not it ever comes up again,it won't be a contradiction if it doesn't go against any of the established haki aspects.If it doesn't come up again and also doesn't become a contradiction,then it will remain a stand alone aspect of haki that is just a part of at least the Admirals' abilities,much like we haven't seen Usopp use dials for a quite a while.

    You've been saying that haki doesn't match the rest of Oda's content,but you haven't been trying to convince of it by showing me parts of the haki content that suggests that there are problems with it and have only been stating it as a fact for me to accept.If the reason you think that haki isn't like the rest of the content is its ambiguity,then not only is that only a reason to believe that there might be future problem an not that there will definitely be,but that ambiguity is also not exclusive to haki content.I'll get to that later on.


    I actually don't think that you did,hence why I was confused when you wrote: "Just so that I don't get criticized of "ignoring something" ".I don't think that I either did so or gave the impression that I would so,so I don't know why you'd write that in your reply to me.I apologized just in case that I somehow gave that impression to you,since my intention certainly wasn't such.In any case,apologies if I misunderstood your words but I found that particular choice of words somewhat peculiar when you mentioned begin criticized considering that I didn't have any such intention.


    If you're referring to either Ace unlocking haki during his fight with a vice admiral or general training,that doesn't imply that he trained in using haki.Aisha and Otohime are geniuses in the sense that they have unlocked kenbunshoku since birth,but they still can't control it at will because they haven't trained in using it.But to reference an example more similar to Ace,Coby also unlocked haki relatively normally and couldn't control it at will before training in it.Similarly,even though it's from a movie,Luffy also couldn't properly use busoshoku for quite a while after unlocking it during the 2Y3D movie,and that's for Luffy who Rayleigh said can train in using haki quite fast.Coby also used kenbunshoku haki after unlocking it to hear the thoughts of the people at marinefold,but he still needed training to properly use it in battle after that.So if you can prove that Ace had trained in using haki before fighting Teach,then you're of course more than welcome to do so,it's what I asked myself when Jawa first introduced the point which is the light novel.If not,then we've already discussed this point previously.

    If,by point of reference,you meant the light novel,then that has already been introduced by Jawa during the relatively early stages of the conversation.That only proves that Ace had unlocked haki,not that he had become proficient in using it by the time of his fight with Teach.

    Thanks to @Pacquiao8 and @Kia for the further clarification on Ace's haki training and haki capabilities and to @Admiral Ryokugyu for the further clarification on Ace's haki capabilities and specific referencing of the source.

    I agree that culture contributes in the shaping of a person,but it's not as limiting as not allowing any non-Japanese person to reach the same conclusions as a Japanese person.People can share other traits,have a similar thinking process and reach similar conclusions regardless of culture.

    Personally,I think that the combat level of the fights has been progressing smoothly.The two characters who you believe should have had haki were two Logia users confident in their devil fruit abilities.Coupled with the fact that haki is not available for everyone,and especially in a short time,I find it believable for both Ace and Teach to have been unable to use haki at the time.As for me harboring any sort of bias,I'll have to disagree once more.If you had shown me some definitive proof that conclusively proved the point you're trying to make and I was unable to accept it,then I would have understood why you would considered me as being biased.However,you haven't shown any such proof and have only been stating your opinion as a fact and expecting me to accept it without being convinced of it.Is me requesting some proof that backs up your claims so irrational? Does me not blindly accepting your opinion without first being convinced of it make me biased?

    It's true that I don't follow the SBS,databooks,etc,hence why I have periodically asked you for such a piece of information from those sources that conclusively proves your claims but you haven't sown me any.The points that could prove your claims were mentioned during the conversation between you,me,Jawa and Kia,which were proven ambiguous at best.I don't have any bias towards your perspective,and I even consider as a possibility that might come true depending on the future content,but it's convincing if you base your perspective solely on your opinion and then state it as a fact.


    I don't recall any statement in the series about Cracker being an awakened devil fruit user.Much like Magellan and Katakuri,he was introduced as a special paramecia user.According to what Kia says as well,it doesn't seem like it was stated that Cracker is an awakened devil fruit user.

    Thanks to @Kia for the further clarification.


    Then why have Law and Jack not been shown to use an awakening ability despite being a Shichibukai and a Yonko commander respectively coupled with the fact that they're both positioned in the new world? If a new world character showing an ability means that everyone should have it,then every devil fruit user in the new world should be an awakened devil fruit user.Why does your reasoning apply only to haki and not the awakening as well? Personally,I find it logical that not all characters,even new world ones,can use haki,awakening,etc.Each person has their strengths and weaknesses and not all people can master an ability at the same level.Much like one having an awakened devil fruit depends on one's circumstances,I don't see why it would be weird for the same to apply to haki,especially since Rayleigh's comment about it has made those circumstances even clearer.

    Yeah,I did say "with enough stamina and time". In the end,you're suggesting that awakened Logia users will have the characteristic of being able to directly influence their surroundings,like it was stated in the series by Doffy (at least for Paramecia types like him),which makes sense.I can also say that the awakenign of Logia users is different than that of Paramecias' because the ice and magma from Aokiji's and Akainu's fight remained and affected Punk Hazard while the strings that Doffy created turned back to stone after he lost.In the end,like I've said,the point is that we still don't know several points concerning awakening. I'm only mentioning haki to showcase that one could question it the way you are doing for haki,there's no need to convince me about anything concerning awakening as I don't see any problems with it so far.I agree that Oda has properly explained awakening so far,as I believe that he has also properly explained haki,for which I'll make a summary of in the end of the comment.

    I can say that the deciding factor is the stamina and not the proximity.Assuming that awakened devil fruit users alter the surrounding environment by interacting with it in some way,whether that way is will,energy,or anything else,I could say that the deciding factor is whose is stronger.While being in close proximity could help with exacting the type of energy required onto the piece of land in question,it wouldn't help if the other party was considerably stronger.I could also say that someone can alter an already altered piece of land if they are stronger than the user who originally altered it. Like I say above,we don't know the specifics about awakening so several options can be speculated.

    Like I've been saying,simply telling that your perspective is the correct one without any proof to back up that statement and expecting me to accept it as definite outcome,then I'm sorry to say that it's not enough to convince me.If you want to convince me of your perspective,then please justify why your perspective is the correct one and not just assume that I should blindly accept it as such.While it's certainly possible that a mistake will appear in the future,it's still only a possibility and it's not a certainty.Stating that it's an 100% certainty without supporting that claim isn't convincing for me.Proving your opinion about Ace and Teach would certainly support your perspective,and the process of whether or not that point is an inconsistency was the conversation between you,me,Jawa and Kia.During that conversation we concluded that the points in question were ambiguous at best.If you've found some new information regarding that point which can conclusively prove that your perspective is correct,then you're of course more than welcome to show it.

    There was no need even though Luffy was on the brink of death and needed a blood transfusion to survive due to blood loss? One step further was brain damage and one step further than that was death.At which point of the two would there be a need to use gear 4th? I don't see a problem with how the story progressed so there's no need to convince me of anything,but I'll get to that in the conclusion of my reply.

    You suggest that Oda "had" to develop the fishman island arc in a way that he didn't reveal Luffy's gear 4th.Then couldn't you also use Oda as a reason for the story's progression of haki,or any other point for that matter? Using Oda as a reason is the opposite of proving that there is something wrong with a part of the content.If you say that Oda had to develop things in a certain way,then everything could be explained and there wouldn't even be a need for a logical connection between points.In any case,I don't have a problem with any part of the story,so there's no need to convince me of these points.The reason I mentioned them was to showcase that the story could have gone different way in many aspects besides haki,logically speaking but I'll get to that in the end.

    The fact that I'm factoring in the several aspects of combat is precisely why I don't think that Katakuri's level of haki is something as god like as you describe it to be.

    You say that haki is the only part of the content that is flawed and that there would be no problem with any other part if we micro analyzed it.However,whether it is the awakening,the process and results of the fights that have taken place throughout the series,the contents of the void century,the identity of One Piece,the details about the will of D,etc,we can conjure hypothetical scenarios in our minds that are not necessarily similar to the scenarios that Oda has introduced.One could say that Luffy's gear 4th should look like a haki coated version of himself and with smoke coming out of his body without him becoming a bouncing ball.One could say that Katakuri shouldn't have lost to Luffy.One could say that several people should have been shown as having awakened devil fruits.One could say several things but in the end,there is no need.The reason why the content of One Piece is regarded as facts is because Oda is the one who decides which possibilities come true and the reason why that content is accepted as having no mistakes is not because there are no alternatives to it,it's because the points of the content are properly connected,the outcomes and points can be logically explained and there has yet to be a contradiction inside of that content.

    I've mentioned several parts which one can question the same way you're questioning haki.And yet you accept those parts as properly established when I introduced several other logical possibilities to you but regard haki as flawed while there hasn't been a contradiction regarding it either and its aspects can be logically explained so far.While there can certainly be a contradiction in the future,I don't see why you go out of your way to treat haki as flawed content even though there hasn't been one yet and treat other parts,which are similar to haki,as properly established.

    I recognize your knowledge of One Piece and it's also one of the reasons why I respect your opinion.But that doesn't mean that I'll blindly accept your opinion as a 100% certain fact when you don't even try to convince me of it.Regarding your opinion as an absolute fact is fine but expecting me to simply accept it as such without any evidence to conclusively back up that claim isn't going to change my opinion and it becomes a matter of simply whether I agree with it or not.As far as that goes,then I've made my position clear in that I regard it as a possibility and not as absolute certainty.I've seen your perspective throughout the conversation and I'm thankful that I got to experience a perspective different than my own but if you're not going to try to convince me of it and simply expect me to accept it as an absolute certainty then I'm sorry to say that there's probably not really much of a point to continuing this debate,regretfully so.You also regard my opinion as false and there's not much room for me to convince you of it when you regard yours as absolutely correct.So if we continue like this at this point,we'll simply be debating for the sake of debating without making any real progress.If you're willing to properly try to convince me of your perspective or at least treat my perspective as a possibility,then I'd gladly welcome the notion as there would e at least some meaning in continuing the debate.But if you still expect me to accept your perspective without begin convinced of it,then let's stop the debate at this point.As enjoyable as it has been thus far,I can't say how much that would be the case in a situation where we're both aware of the other's opinion and keep going in circles while making no progress.
     
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  17. Yuuzume

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    Thank you very much for the clarification,it was very helpful and it is appreciated.
     
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  18. Jawahib

    Both Exotic and Professor
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    I can't really explain how y'all have kept this alive for what is bordering on 4 months now, but I wanna quickly dip my toe into the water if you'll allow me to be so rude.

    Dammit Seiryu the way to win ppl over in an argument is to pretend like you aren't so confident in your conclusion to create the illusion that you've arrived at your "correct" opinion together by walking through your logic :P
    The only reason I'm feigning irritation here is because I actually agree with like all of your conclusions, but don't go so far as to treat them like they're objective facts. I think it's silly that the circumstance caused when two Awakened DF users attempt to transform the same thing has not been addressed by Oda. I think the dilemma caused by Oda fully committing to the future-sight aspect of O-Haki is silly. I (obviously) think the implementation of Haki has been silly. But I wouldn't dismiss contrary conclusions; I still find them interesting to hear and think about. When you say stuff like "it necessitates changing intrinsic parts of you/your perspective" you're directly insinuating there's something wrong with him that needs to be fixed somehow to become capable of understanding your superior, more enlightened opinion; whether you meant it that way or not, and then your arguments become flavoured with an argument from authority taste which isn't really nice.

    Please don't take this as a personal attack or anything, but I can tell from reading the last couple of posts that this particular point is starting to really frustrate Yuuzume, and I want this discussion to continue for at least another 12 years :P

    Actually reading through this discussion has me want to make my own thread about something I think both of you will be interested in, so hopefully I can get that done before the end of the year...

    Ily guys and I'm only a tag away if you want a desert-merchant's opinion or references for something :D
     
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  19. Yuuzume

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    I really like you as well man,the forum really wouldn't be the same without you,seriously.Though I'll have to disappoint you a little in the sense that I wouldn't say I'm frustrated at this point.The request to end the conversation,if there's not going to be any progress,is to prevent either party from getting frustrated further down the conversation.

    To be fair,just the name of the one who post it would have been enough to pique my interest,but since you introduced it like this,I'll look forward to the content quite a bit as well.

    Well,at this point there's really not really much of a reason to keep the conversation going if there won't be any progress being made,but you're still welcome to tag along until then end.Other than that,as far as I'm concerned,you're more than welcome to tag along in any other conversation and you're of course welcome to tag me during any conversation anytime in case you want an extra opinion.The conversation we had about devil fruits in your thread is still one of the best I've had in the forum.
     
  20. Kia

    Kia
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    We’ve managed to beat this poor dead horse so badly that we’ve made a fine glue from its bones, hooves and connective tissues. ^_^
     
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