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The Truth Behind Devil Fruits and SMILEs and The Reason Why Blackbeard Can Use Two Abilities.

Discussion in 'One Piece Theories' started by Yuuzume, Mar 14, 2018.

  1. Yuuzume

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    You say that Oda has made mistakes and refer to haki,the WCI and Wani arcs.We talked about haki already,a conversation in which you were included,and the result of the conversation was that there is no contradiction related to haki so far,hence no mistake.Of course,like I've said before,if you want to interpret any ambiguous parts as mistakes before they are even proven as such,that is of course a perfectly viable opinion and I respect you thinking so.However,the point of this specific part of thee conversation stemmed from you suggesting that some of the previous established content can't be trusted because of your aforementioned opinion and that is something I have to disagree with.Having an opinion about an ambiguous aspect of the series is one thing and it is perfectly reasonable and perfectly acceptable,as each person is entitled to their own opinion,but treating that opinion as a fact despite it contradicting the content put forth by the author is another.A considerable part of our conversation was spent to determine whether or not the parts about haki were indeed mistakes or not by examining the possibility of contradictions having surfaced over the course of the series,and yet we determined that a contradiction hadn't been made so far.In light of that,I don't see a reason not to trust any part of the existing content,regardless of whether it matched anyone's estimations or is to anyone's liking,including my own.

    I don't know why you're so intent on generalizing this aspect of the series,but I can't say I agree with it.Not every Japanese person necessarily believes in real life ki,people can believe in real life haki even while not being Japanese,and not every person who believes in real life ki necessary holds the same estimations for kenbunshoku as haki as you or does so to the same extend.You said that our difference in opinions stems from out different views on real life ki and attributed your belief mostly to being Japanese.And yet Kia also believes in real life ki and you attributed that difference in opinions simply to her not being Japanese.Wasn't your Japanese origin only meant to justify your belief in real life ki? In any case,as far as information on how kenbunshoku haki works at the moment,I'm only viewing kenbunshoku haki in the confines of the One Piece world and basing my opinion on the information that is made available in it.As far as any estimation of how kenbunshoku haki will be like in the future,I believe that's less up to a person's culture and more up to the person themselves,as I do not believe that every single Japanese person would hold the same perpspective and to the same extend when the future of kenbunshoku haki is concerned.

    Our view on mastery simply differs.There are things that each person values,hence there are certain situations that trigger people's instincts and emotions,which in turn can fill up a person's attention capacity and overwrite any reaction that they might have had in a different situation.

    As for haki,you seem intent on believing that my view of real life ki is responsible for my opinion and call it a bias,but of anything,I think I'm being fair in my judgement of how haki works in the One Piece world.Regardless of my belief as far as real life ki is concerned,I jusged haki based on the information given by the series.I don't believe I've let my opinion of real life ki hold me back from believing or denying anything about haki that has been presented in One Piece.On the contrary,it seems that you have let your belief of real life ki create a bias and affect your view of haki in the One Piece world.Estimations about haki in the future are one thing,but you disregard rules put forth about haki in the series due to your view of ki in the real world.You say that haki and ki are the same from a martial arts perspective but haki has been introduced an energy as tangible as stamina and one that can similarly run out,which doesn't correspond to ki in real life.

    As for the kairoseki handcuffs,I don't see how it's considered as miss-connecting previous context,it only helped make something that was already acceptable and explainable clearer.

    The word I used as alternative to nakama was to "friend" though,it was "comrade". I used the word friend precisely because it can be broad to showcase that some words hold different weigh in the eyes of different people.

    My point is that Oda isn't simply displaying the whole worth and meaning of the word,he's attaching his own worth to the word through the series.That's why people who haven't read One Piece presumably perceive the word "nakama" differently than those who have.

    Oh,that kenbunshoku haki can only perceive the auras of living begin and attacks made form them is something I quite agree with.And that particular limitation of kenbunshoku is one more reason as to why I don't think Fujitora uses kenbunshoku outside of battle or specific situations and simply relies on his cane and heightened senses.

    As for kenbunshoku begin the same as eyesight,Fujitora's example is testament as to why it's not the same thing.While the feedback one gets from sight might be able to make the picture one perceives through haki clearer,kenbunshoku has been to not be eyesight dependent through Fujitora.I assume it's your own perspective that led you to believe that the consumption of haki through kenbunshoku is the same as the consumption needed to power the eyes,but I don't see why the two would the same.If anything,the belief that kenbunshoku haki is an almighty power that never runs out,has no blind spots and comes as a package with an equally godlike dodging ability is closer to what I'd describe as "magical" than the view that haki runs out like stamina is.

    Not all aspects introduced throughout the series are carried until the end of the line,and whether or not details that are carried unti the end of the line have been connected properly is a judgement that would be best suited after a certain point,as the author may sometimes introduce points only to explain them at a later time.Though in any case,contradictions haven't been made yet.So while it's your own decision whether or to like or dislike certain parts of the series of trust Oda from here on out,disregarding established facts without them being contradictory to other parts of the content is a different matter.

    You still seem to believe that I hold some pro-Oda bias or something of the sort.I've had to mention Oda himself several times throughout this part of the conversation,but the fact is that Oda himself is a factor that I don't take into account when forming my opinions,like you probably already know.My opinions in the conversation so far don't stem from any sort of blind trust,bias or similar notion towards Oda and are instead based on the content that he has put forth,the series itself.As for any pro-Oda notion,you can't kill what doesn't exist in the first place.Of course,as far as I'm concerned,any credit that I give the series is a credit to Oda himself since he's the author,but that doesn't mean that I get ahead of the series and compliment solely Oda himself or create any sort of bias towards him,whether it's positive or negative.

    It's still too early to tell but I don't think we saw any contradiction.Even the kenbunshoku haki seems to be progressing normally and hasn't turned into a stare-down,considering that Luffy was quickly taken down by Kaido despite having kenbunshoku haki close to Katakuri's level,making the importance of skill match ups more apparent.
     
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  2. Seiryu

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    At a superficial level. Oda's mastery comes down to not having room to interpret alternative outcomes. I would never argue against how much you love the series (anyone here does), however, your comments imply you are missing how extensive the planning and execution of the first 20.5 years of the series was. The fact that we are having this back and forth is proof itself that Oda is making mistakes (much, much smaller than any other writer of any style I've ever come across). Things are all relative.

    If we are to discuss ANY aspect of the 20.5 years of content, we may have initial differences from our respective biases, but there is 0 room for a rational alternative. East Blue is the easiest because there is literally no one else even close to a douriki power rating of more than 2-5 (everyone is a normal human and the few people with a douriki rating of >1 is automatically a powerhouse. Even in the rest of the arcs, the hundreds if not thousands of hours of planning is why anyone potentially strong enough to alter the course of the climax fights is physically tied to a fight/task or morally/obligatorily/work or responsibility tied to something that prevents them from altering the "fate" Oda masterfully planned out.

    From the very beginning of each arc, there is only one path that can happen. Oda has mastered presenting a maze of potential options, but steadily revealing exciting plot points that often distract from previous key points. I'll see if it gets addressed later, but denying the truth of Oda's "facade of complexity" is only going to create room for inaccuracies in analysis. No matter how much Oda tries, discussions and forums like this are going to get more boring. Every single fan can rationalize the remaining major arcs. It is impossible to have a completely unseen twist.
    And this highlights what I think is the true literary mastery of Oda's previous work. Even with so many differing perspectives across global cultures, we all interpret even minuscule details the exact same way. Oda's mastery is why anyone that takes the time to read carefully (getting discussions like this to learn from other's is naturally a shortcut) can get full comprehension. If Oda continues to alter from his mastered trends/writing patterns, it is going to fall apart. Even with Oda trying to explain away the loopholes of B.S. overpowered fruit abilities, there are still means to utilize time travel or universal instantaneous withering.

    Just like the typing/mastery (something exceeding what you perceive and again, this is normal since we truly are dealing with potentially something once in a lifetime, hell maybe once in a human history sort of event), Oda's literary mastery is vastly greater than what your comments are implying. I'm gonna beat the dead horse, but true Oda context is 100% unquestionable. I literally have a much higher standard than any other fan because I've lived it and got spoiled with it for 12.5 years now (again, the last year is still exponentially greater than pretty much any other literary work, but is clearly at a different level from the other years). You obviously have the smarts for it, but I have a hard time thinking cultural insight does not play a part in overlooking the depth of contextual perfection (anyone can look down at the ocean on a boat, but it is physically impossible to see all the way down without a massive submarine. Culture is what makes us as an individual. We should actively do our best to inhibit the negative sides of any bias, but the perks are unique to each culture. In general, the more moral the culture, the more universal the beneficial aspects/more universal. That's just how the world/universe works. Of course you can microanalyze any part of that, but it should be an undeniable law of nature. I may not give a good enough explanation or analogy, but that's on me to keep on trying.

    Oda used to operate his "child" the same way. He correctly (for his health and his ability to be a proper father/husband) started to sacrifice his level of obsession/overworking to the point of being detrimental to his health, but it is manifesting in a lower level of literary mastery. However, any literary work is the same way. It is astronomically easier to have a good start and a good ending. Being able to tie an unquestionable plot through the middle is what Oda was initially on his way to doing.
    Technically, this is the only part of the discussion that is "still on topic". For the question on Japanese, of course not. My explanations may seemingly imply that but of course it shouldn't be such a linear correlation for such a complex situation. Of course there are going to be individual differences of opinion on something like haki, the cultural biases would make a strong bias in one direction. And I think the fighting manga industry itself is direct proof of this. Ultimately, I think the initial rant should hopefully do a better job expressing my bias on all of this.
    But there are all synonyms that still do not carry the same cultural differences. Every culture should have words, phrases, rituals, etc. that cannot be translated directly. It is possible to experience and live the "definition" (which is exactly what Oda does so masterfully). We 100% agree on the Oda aspect, but I have a hard time thinking the immediate interpretation is not different for people of different cultures. Oda's literary mastery is why it is now a universally understood concept for anyone that follows the series (assuming their translators choose to leave nakama as romaji).

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm getting the impression that you think we are having very different interpretations, when the reality is that it is very minuscule. I keep using the 99+% because the rationale Oda built this series upon is still an astronomically statistically significant majority still. This goes back to the "facade of complexity" bias. You are going to be much more accurate because that is how Oda writes. It should not really change your view of Oda because his work is a living piece of art (something that can span various cultures with the exact same level of impact puts it on such a high level to me). Going back to microanalyze through the rest of the series will confirm that.
    Exactly, same as the immediately above aspect on being able to agree on a great majority of the rationale (Oda's level of research, that his assistant have to do I would assume, is mind-boggling considering he doesn't have any legit science background as far as I know). Even for haki a great majority of the rationale is still being followed. The Luffy example and all of the residents is the "proof" of how it is something he should theoretically be able to do 24/7. It is a sixth sense that should be harnessed unconsciously (Luffy can only do it when he lowers the levels of conscious thought again all real life martial arts aspects). The energy to sense is astronomically lower because from a technical standpoint, we only primarily are depending on the energy to activate nerve endings and the transfer of that information along synapses. Any movement is astronomically to tiers and tiers of a different level because it is no longer is primarily dependent at a neural level.

    Kenbunshoku and busoushoku are worlds and worlds apart in the "haki energy" they consume. The same universal laws of nature are just being applied rationally to an unrealistic/superhuman manga situation.
    Now that we establish the agreement on the foundational rationale, now we can better understand each other's biases. To oversimplify a successful discussion, we both have to remove our personal biases and get to the essence that led to the rationale behind the differing interpretation. Again, due to cultural differences, I can 100% agree with that. Although there is a "magical" aspect to it, it is still based on human physiology. The energy to perceive senses vs. energy to move is on a completely different level by too many zeros/^nth degree.
    But Oda has already done this for 20.5 years. I've technically discussed with huge braniacs that I would 100% were much smarter than myself (strangely enough were bigger fans of Bleach and or Naruto, which was common for the time) so that's part of the reason why I'm so confident as a group effort, I've already nitpicked through most major topics for those 20.5 years of content. That level of understanding is also why I have a completely unique perspective on the series. Part of the reason why I figured out Oda's literary patterns was from those years of microanalyzing. Which is exactly why I can say 100% that you will start to see these flaws because they will stick out like the severe deviations that they are (again a relative perspective for the situation).

    I would assume most people hear at least acknowledge that I'm not spouting B.S. when I talk about Oda's patterns because it's played out along those lines over the years. If Oda wants to ruin the series (again he can choose to further deviate from his "facade of complexity" but his mastery is too extensive to give him good odds of success with something completely different), he can choose to change his writing style. I will gladly stick around and truly "rip it apart" because he is taking away something that I've grown so fond of. I think I've done a whole bunch to increase the level of appreciation for his work, but I will gladly do the exact opposite if it no longer is a living work of art (again it is still very small now, but I'm just more sensitive to any deviation from the truly 100% consistency, which is by definition humanly impossible).
    As fans, it is natural to have some level of blind faith. Being still new to the series increases the level of bias for that. Again, you are still 100% correct in your rationale, but because you don't have the experience on how the recent events are completely different from the 20.5 years of previous context is my point. Other people hear literally "feel" this B.S. instinctually. It isn't a very big deal in terms of agreeing on the rationale of 99% of stuff. It is a big deal to try to discuss future events/theories.
    I would respectfully disagree. But I think the main points I'm referring to are stuff like the kairouseki "contradictions", power level discrepancies, etc. The cumulative experience (a big part is what I've gained from others in the past) is why I can have a higher level accuracy. Both of us are batting a much higher percentage than the average fan, but it is a very small change in perspective to match Oda's rationale. In general, all of the fans here are much more "true" fans that understand all the petty details Oda spends hours and hours to try to fit together. Unfortunately, he is adding small bits of B.S. that were never there ever.
     
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  3. Yuuzume

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    Actually,the fact that we're having this discussion is proof that there are ambiguous parts in the series,either because they haven't been explained yet or because they stand alone in an ambiguous state with no relations to other parts of the series that could clear them up,and not that there are mistakes.This part is more relevant later down the line,so I'll simply mention it here and focus a little more on it when we get to the relevant part.

    As for the series being a facade of complexity,it's not something I denied.However,your words seem to underestimate this facade of complexity somewhat.Now that many aspects of the series have been revealed,it's easy to go back to them and say "This was the obvious and rational outcome",but the fact is that when those aspects were shrouded in the aforementioned illusion of complexity and people saw several outcomes as possibilities,many people had their expectations surpassed by what you refer to as a facade of complexity.Now that we have more information about many aspects of the series,it's not unusual for people to be more confident about their estimations as they have more facts to base them on.However,the series has a history of surpassing those expectations and the facade of complexity has a history of obscuring the real result until it is revealed.As confident as anyone is about their estimations,the aforementioned history of the series is a merit it has earned and the prize of that is the benefit of the doubt.People have thought that they had seen through the facade of complexity that is the series before,and it turned out they hadn't.In light of that,regardless of how confident one is about their estimations,the series has earned the right for people to think that it's possible for it to surprise them once more.

    You say that true Oda content is 100% unquestionable,but you're saying that when you look at it in the rear view mirror and with aspects already explained.Was true Oda content 100% unquestionable when you were looking at it through windshield? An example would be the time that Sentonmaru was first introduced (somewhat more official moment),or even earlier when Garp hit Luffy on the head (a little more low key than Sentonmaru). Until those moments,we knew that logia users and special paramecia users couldn't be affected by physical attacks and blunt/cutting/etc (depending on the paramecia fruit) attacks respectively.So what did people think when Sentonmaru was able to solidly hit Luffy? Now we can look back and say that the obvious reason was haki,but what about the time before haki had been officially explained? Before haki,the information that "Logia/Paramecia users couldn't be hurt by certain attacks" was questioned,until the existence of haki was later revealed and everything was tied together.Similarly,the content that you now call questionable and B.S might be similarly "obvious" in the future when many aspects and details will have possibly been explained.If we look at pieces of the series that have all their details explained already,it's easy to judge whether or not they're questionable or have mistakes.However,the process isn't as easy when the part in question is one that is in the middle of being played out.Regardless,all of that comes down to whether or not an aspect of the series is "questionable/ambiguous",not whether or not it's a mistake.That's another matter,which I'll elaborate on a little more later down the line.

    Regardless of whether that the fighting manga industry has incorporated concepts like haki/chakra/etc from a real life belief that ki exists in the real world or not,that belief goes as far as impacting how easy it is for someone to accept the existence of such energy inside of the manga and how familiar it makes a reader feel depending on whether or not they are familiar with that concept.Even if people who believe in real life haki find it easier to accept its existence inside of a manga,it doesn't mean that the people who don't believe in real life ki don't accept its existence.As for the extend to which the specific abilities that that energy grants in each manga can grow to,that depends mostly on the person's imagination and not the culture that they live around.As for the person's imagination,my opinion is as I've said before.A person who believes in haki in real life and has seen real life examples of its use should logically have less expectations of its applications.That's because one's experience of real life ki usually (not necessarily though) limits the expectations they have of it and those expectations usually correspond to their knowledge of real life ki.As for people who don't believe in real life haki and have no experience of it,it's easier for their imaginations to run wild and view it as an overpowered ability.So if anything,people who don't believe in real life ki should normally view haki as an ability as god like as you describe it,not the way around.As for those who believe in real life ki,it's one thing to draw information from that to connect it to the energy in each manga,but let's not forget that the two are not identical as the rules of each type of energy depends on the respective manga and aren't necessarily the same as others.

    I agree that a Japanese person will place more worth on the word "nakama" than a non-Japanese person would.However,and this was and is what I'm trying to say on this subject,I disagree about the reason why the case is such.Your previous words suggested that the word "nakama" is inherently more worthy of representing certain values by suggesting that there is no word that it can be completely translated to.On the other hand,I'm saying that the reason you believe this to be the case is because you have used it more often than a non-Japanese person would have.Every instance where you've used this word has respectively either increased or decreased its worth in your eyes.However,just as you've placed worth in the word "nakama" through use,non-Japanese people have similarly placed the respective worth to words like "comrade" or even "friend". In light of that,the way you interpret the word "nakama" and the worth behind it is similar to how a non-Japanese person would interpret the word "comrade",hence it's not impossible to directly translate the word "nakama".

    You're right in that the difference is not big,but my view on the situations is somewhat different to what you describe.It's not that I think that the difference in our opinions is big,it's just that I think it's very substantial and essential to the outcome of the core discussion.You say that the series has mistakes and yet your reasoning behind this suggesting is that the series "is not perfect".I simply believe that it's too soon to make such a claim without solid evidence of it.The series is simply not complete yet,so judging parts of it that include other incomplete parts,like haki,would normally lead to discussions such as ours due to some of those parts being ambiguous at the moment.However,being ambiguous merely means that it might be wrong,not that it already is wrong.This slight difference is as essential the difference that differentiates between night and day.As long as it's not wrong,the facts established by Oda can't be denied.This part of the discussion stemmed from you finding some parts about haki untrustworthy when I and @Kia used them as facts to explain our opinions on haki.However,as long as any part of the series is merely questionable and not an irrefutable mistake,then there is no more to completely disregard the fact established by Oda.You're essentially saying that someone is guilty simply because they might be guilty,without providing definite proof of it.You've said that I have blind trust in Oda but that's far from begin he case.The information that can determine whether or not some parts are mistakes or not simply hasn't been provided.And I'm only saying that because it's the result that the four people who were mainly involved in the haki discussion agreed upon,one of which was you.Of course,it's completely possible that there may be a part that we've overlooked,and should that be the case,you're of course more than welcome to present it.You call the series a facade of complexity,but that facade has pulled the wool over many people's eyes many times before,so I'm only suggesting that it's too early to judge it before the final curtains have been pulled.

    It hasn't been stated that kenbunshoku is the same as eyesight nor that the consumption of haki when kenbunshoku is used is minuscule.In fact,not much has been stated about the recovery of haki either.We only know that Luffy needed time to rest to recover some,it may be the case that one can't recover it while it's being used,in which case it would run out no matter how minuscule the rate of consumption is.But even before that,we don't even know anything about said rate of consumption,we only know that haki can run out after being consumed.Since we know that haki can run out,the only way that Fujitora,or anyone else,could constantly have kenbunshoku haki "on" is if it is stated that people can recover haki even while it is used and that one's rate of haki consumption when using kenbunshoku when using it is lower than their haki recovery rate.Unless such facts are stated by Oda,then I'm more inclined to believe that people can't have kenbushoku haki always "on" simply due to the known fact that one's haki reserves can run out.

    Like I've said above,you're saying that while looking at the previous content through the rear view mirror,after those parts have mostly been played out.It's logical to judge a play after seeing it in its entirety,but it's not as accurate if you do it before it has been played out in its entirety.

    If you can feel/see/smell/sense that Oda is changing his writing style and that the facade of complexity will be different than before,then of course you're entitled to that opinion.Oda himself is not an aspect I take into account to judge the series so if such a change is taking place,then it's not something I can feel/see/smell/sense.If you think you can allow me to look at things through your perspective by explaining it or can provide some solid evidence to support your claims,then it would be quite helpful to me or anyone else who might not see things from your perspective on this matter.Otherwise,I'm more inclined to simply wait and see how the series plays out and judge it appropriately after the relevant information has been revealed.Making guesses based on patterns and limited information is one thing,and it makes reading different theories interesting,but making a concrete judgement requires as much of the information as possible to be known.So regardless of both our current opinions,a more concrete conclusion would be be drawn after such information is made available to us.
     
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  4. Kia

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    Sorry, I honestly thought that I’d responded ages ago. But I guess I’ve only been debating with Jawa.

    I’ve already addressed this. The martial arts perspective only takes you so far when it’s only been compulsory in Japan for junior high students since 2012. Prior to that, there was no guarantee of a shared martial arts perspective and even with the compulsory nature of the program and likelihood that, due to funding issues, it’ll be judo that will be taught, there’s still the possibility of kendo or sumo. Furthermore, as previously discussed, there are the differences in ideological bases amongst the various martial arts types. Even more so, there’s the question of just how much will be retained in that short of a period of a course of study as it's unclear if the requirement is for the entirety of junior high or only a portion thereof.
    Okay every (good) mother I know would’ve reacted the same way. A child doesn’t order a mother around. It’s disrespectful. So, discipline is required if there’s even a hint of that being the case. I’m not calling Big Mom a good mother but to say that the one instance where her behavior meets normal mom standards is an example of her being a b*tch doesn’t fly with me. I respectfully disagree.

    I didn’t miss these characters, rather I recognized them and they’ve attributed to the respect and credit that the series is being given by me. Instead, it seems that there is a misunderstanding as to what I meant by a perfect character. The context of my statement was a large clue I was speaking of a perfect foil in battle. “I don’t believe that Oda will create a perfect character because there isn’t a perfect person. Haki will continue to be presented as it has been, developing in strength commiserate with the levels of the characters and complementing their skills but not to the point of excess or perfection as I stated.” This is what I said. By this I mean that having someone who has all of the Haki maxed out as well as the speed, strength, dexterity, etc to properly utilize and effectively work with those skills as well as no weaknesses would be a “perfect character” in terms of battle. Thus, it wouldn’t occcur because everyone has quirks and weaknesses. It’s how we deal with and compensate for them that make us who we are for better or worse. One Piece does an excellent job of developing and displaying that so I believe that it will continue.

    @Yuuzume @Seiryu when it comes to the nakama versus comrade/friend discussion, my input is as follows: I do believe that “comrade” is as close as the English language can get to that word in its original definition. Furthermore, for some people, on an individual level, it’s posdible to imbue the word “friend” with the level of meaning that is close to what is intended as Yuuzume is trying to convey—that’s highly individualistic and not transferable amongst individuals in a way that would make conveying that meaning possible in a very real sense, however since it is so subjective. There do exist words/concepts that cannot be easily translated from one language to another. I’ve had that problem often in ‘ōlelo Hawai’i when trying to explain it in English. It just doesn’t work and takes a sentence or so.

    As for Pandora’s box, it contained all the evil in the world, in my recollection. So the gist is the same but the links to Queen Otohime, the undersea kingdom and the aging were understandably missing. That’s like every time I read Orochi’s name I kept thinking that he was going to be a dragon so when he was revealed as such it was like yup.

    As for Kidd/Luffy being able to do all that work while I’m kairoseiki, Oda laid the groundwork for that quite well. He had Hawkins shoot Law with a nail, explain that Wano was full of kairoseiki smiths who could do amazing things. Then showed a work camp, said he planned to tame them. I don’t see the problem. As you’ve stated, we’re suposed to be reading closely. He explained it fully in the next chapter. I think that we were supposed to be a bit surprised but he also left breadcrumbs.

    @Yuuzume has done a great job of summarizing the key issues that we’ve had here in our discussion which stem from your use of your real world martial arts perspective to overshadow the information that is provided by the author and the judging of things that haven’t occurred yet based on things that are happening at the moment. If you’re completely comfortable both prejudging and letting your personal bias overrule what is written to the point that you call the Haki mistakes based not on rules stated by the author but by your own experiences/canon then there’s obviously nothing anyone can say to make you see it any other way or that perhaps a literary work should be viewed as it is, not as we want it to be. I recognize that there are cultural items that add richness and depth to the series. That doesn’t mean that having your martial arts perspective means you can supersede that which is specifically and explicitly stated to be a rule by the creator. Otherwise, you’re creating your own story and, by your own words, any wild and crazy theory is possible.
     
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  5. Seiryu

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    Again, to each their own opinion, but I will point out how the series progressed completely smoothly (and unquestionably rationally) with in-fight power-ups. This is something that definitely makes Oda unique. Other than Zoro, no one does any training for a great majority of the series. Oda's ability to do so is again why I am so confident that the "real" parts of the series do not even allow for any questions. If Oda didn't procrastinate on haki, it could have gone equally unquestionable (again, we should still agree on a great majority of the established rationale behind current haki mechanics).
    Again, I'm going to say that we 100% agree on the rationale behind everything. However, you should agree that the current 80% completion should naturally play a major factor in all of this. I think the 80% completed puzzle visual is the perfect analogy. Anyone can see with complete accuracy the big picture. The fact that everyone here is steadily getting more and more accurate with their analysis and predictions is proof of that (and I haven't even been here all that long).
    For the stuff the past 10ish years (2008-2017), I would 100% say so. The only contradictions prior to WCI B.S. were extremely petty details someone would bring up in a SBS or Oda would further clarify in a databook. Even something somewhat important contextually like the recent Shiryuu crew commander number is something Oda (and more his team of assistants/editors) would not let go unchecked.

    I've done discussions like this on a weekly basis for those 10 years. Thankfully, K-F had excessively analytical people to do such discussions, so again I'm fully confident that people smarter than me already over-analyzed the previous content to a great extent than I do. The fact that these discussions always ended pretty rapidly (by no means multiple pages of only a few people responding, it may have been multiple pages when a group discussed) is the unquestionable context I know is the "real" series I love.

    It is still a tiny seed that has not even sprouted, but Oda is making changes that many long-term fans are picking up on instinctually (most don't take the time to explain in further detail what led to their reaction/rationale, so the gut reaction of just not liking it seems most likely). We should have a much easier time discussing if we were to try break down literally any other topic (small parts of WCI, Wano Kuni, and haki). I was fully skeptical on the true complexity until the Ace/Garp explanation got revealed to me (I too was a much more universally pro-Oda in my bias).
    And this is what I've been trying to convey on the cultural influences. Again, I 100% agree with everything you write here, but it is impossible to not have cultural influences change who you are and how to interpret and react to the exact same situation/context. Over time, Oda is so consistent that it becomes universally understood by readers. Different cultural and different experience backgrounds/levels change the learning curve. Based on what I'm reading, I think we finally got to a mutual endpoint for this subtopic since we both understand each other's perspective.

    From the current context, both are still completely 100% rational analysis but the different biases are why we come to different interpretations. I would assume the same aspect of experience learning would lead you to similar biases with enough exposure to fighting manga (a great majority of kids have 0 martial arts experience even in Japan). Same goes for the mangaka. I wouldn't be surprised if most of them don't have relevant first-hand experience, but the cultural learning is why there is consistency.
    I think we're getting close to the end here too. Over time, the meaningfulness is learned and conveyed to any reader. That is where the full comprehension of the concept can be understood through "comrade", "friend", etc. Same thing as above in that the cultural impact is impossible to avoid. We will get a definitive answer eventually with haki. However, it is by far the least planned out idea is all of One Piece, which is in itself a contradiction since Oda literally is brainwashing us to interpret petty details the way he wants us to. But that's great storytelling.
    And this is where the years of doing this on a weekly basis is my proof. We got essentially 5-6 years to kill before the series ends. We've got more than enough time to overanalyze the first 20.5 years of the series (because the context is so thorough, it should only take a few responses, if not only one, to reach the mutual agreement point). The level of perfection is mind-boggling. Even minor references for a location, or character design has hours and hours of research behind it. Oda lovingly called the series his "child" and he's such a workaholic that he's far exceeded the amount of hours any normal parent puts into raising their child.

    I truly believe the biggest reason why One Piece is so universally loved by those that get enough exposure to it is just two main factors: the character development and 100% rationality for every detail (which obviously is lacking for haki's explanation/functionality; which is not the norm since most mangaka through fight scenes/training scenes show the parameters of their version of "haki"). We love allies and hate villains because of the character development. Because everything used to fit perfectly, it literally used to be a perfect story. Oda is still doing something superhuman by leaps and bounds considering the longevity.
    No it has not been stated but this is where the "magical" bias is going to create a gap. I will immediately reference Luffy's rate of recovery (WCI B.S. makes it worse). Even with the Doffy fight, his "overconsumption" is still possible with the minutes the Coliseum/allies buy him. Based on Kaidou's minimal usage of defensive busoushoku, why wouldn't he be able to use both kenbunshoku and busoushoku for 24/7 over a week or so?

    Oda will probably never clarify the "energy consumption" of kenbunshoku vs. busoushoku (I would be willing to bet he wants to avoid the "power level reading" that is infamous with DBZ). Our biases may astronomically change the ratio, but the fact that busoushoku is exponentially greater than kenbunshoku (Luffy uses zero kenbunshoku energy against Doffy) I do not think can be questioned. The real life rational/physics/physiology should not be questioned either in my mind. Oda is too much of a detail perfectionist to truly base haki on illogical concepts. Not moving is going to take less energy than moving. The greater the exertion, the greater the energy expenditure. Don't forget that Luffy technically has to imbue EVERY muscle fiber in his ENTIRE body during Gear Fourth (at a microscopic level vs. just the surface of an individual muscle). During Gear Third, every bone (during the transitions at least) has to be imbued with busoushoku. Every artery and vein has to be imbued constantly during Gear Second. Just because it isn't shown, Oda gave us the explanation back with Rayleigh's training (we can expand on that if needed).
    Of course not obviously, but it is much more simple than you think. Previously, the perfect answer was the only answer. Because normal fans began to accurately predict what was coming up, I assume Oda's pride is why WCI B.S. and now recent Wano Kuni B.S. is coming up. This goes back to trying to overanalyze other topics. That is the reality of how the series used to be. Haki is not well planned out, and thankfully is the only major aspect of the entire series' 21.5ish years.
    No need to apologize for something that needs no apology for. If you don't find it meaningful, you shouldn't take your time. I've been pressed for time, so my Japanese bias naturally went to the seniority aspect (seniority is relevant in any culture but has a higher importance to affect myself subconsciously). This is something I've realized looking back now, so hopefully that helps explain my situation/responses.

    I think this came up with Yuuz (or I could be merging you two in my mind again), but just in case it isn't, anime/manga used to poke fun at those that over apologize. It is a great trait to have, but even a good thing can be excessive. Everyone will interpret that limit differently, but to each their own. I think we've bantered enough to not require the normal formalities. If we were talking in Japanese, I'd be dropping the honorifics of "full sentences" because I respect and see our interactions on a "friendly" basis (purposefully reference to the whole nakama sub-topic). Vs. the alternative of a lack of respect/looking down on the conversation partner.
    And I will counter with the learned cultural perspective. Currently, most kids and most mangaka don't have martial arts experience, but there is still universal similarities among all series. It is based on real life, and of course I'm not going to say you have to believe that, but I think my explanations on watching hip movement should be 100% conceptually understood by anyone (I have to do something similar for work so I know anyone from any background should be able to apply the concept). The fact that it is a universally accepted part of the culture is my point. Even if you don't believe in it, Japan does. My back and forth on the cultural influences with @Yuuzume looks like they reached an end, so I'd rather not have to go through the pages and pages trying to change your perspective if needed. Rather than hearing if from me (there will be an unconscious bias against whatever I write), getting an explanation from him would be the most efficient means.
    I disagree quite a bit because Big Mom is excessively selfish in this example. Katakuri is trying to help her out because he sees the problematic future. Her unwillingness to accept that her son can be significant help to her is a huge problem. Again, I 100% agree that a child should have filial piety, but in regards to the context, I disagree on applying parent-child respect to this extent.

    Unless we are referring to different scenes, Katakuri simply states something and Big Mom immediately misinterprets it and overreacts: "Are you trying to order me around?". I'm sure as hell my mother didn't have such a short fuse. Threatening to kill someone for trying to help you seems like a very undesirable personality to me. Maybe it's the Japanese bias (Oda creating Big Mom to be the exact opposite of what her name implies in that she is trying to create a big family that is actually based on morals [a utopia where everyone can get along]) but part of the literary mastery in my mind is this complete contradiction. It also follows the series' trend to slowly reflect real life and the tiny intricacies that make all the difference. Even though she started pure and the moral idea from Mother Caramel, she followed her "mother's" destiny and physically doing the exact opposite (of course only to a certain extent since Totland is peaceful as long as you pay with lifespan).
    Yup, 100% agree with everything you write here (we will eventually get there, hopefully...Oda deviating and compromising on the level of we should 100% agree on a great majority of the context and the rationale behind it (one of the two driving factors that makes this series great). Our personal biases just cloud and make it seem like there is a greater gap.
    Exactly, and I think I'm getting better and conveying my point that over time anyone can learn the intricacies through enough experience/exposure. The cultural difference will always exist, but the same perspective can be learned. Spark notes version: 99+% of established content (haki and minor points of WCI/Wano Kuni's plot are the deviations from Oda's high standards on rationale) should be 100% agreed by all of us. That's the literary mastery of Oda's writing style. To a certain extent, he is literally brainwashing us to interpret the series he wants us to and that's what a great storyteller does (and of course getting this effect is astronomically easier in person with the physical and vocal interactions).
    I'm not familiar with the story behind Pandora's Box, but legends have similarities since ultimately they are all trying to convey key cultural morals (that should be universal across all cultures). I can only go off of what I know, and I am not going to act like I know about other cultures (which is exactly why I avoid it if possible). Having similarities would naturally accelerate the cross-cultural learning. Ultimately, I think you provide an example of what I'm arguing. One Piece is a Japanese manga, so having parts of a Japanese bias is simply going to be more accurate. Of course it is impossible to "get into Oda's head", but he's literally the biggest stickler for EVERY detail with the series. This used to 100% for every last microscopic reference. It is still well over 99%, but Oda is letting plot altering details to be introduced (I can go back to those if needed). This has to reference that the series is built on creating only 1 rational outcome. It starts as a maze of infinite possibilities, but the level of detail and planning makes it such that there is no alternative (all of the breadcrumbs and puzzle pieces have to fit perfectly). Thus, the perfect answer used to be the only answer.
    Again, I 100% agree that the context of power levels makes it the most likely explanation. However, he had to go back and clarify that it was not normal kairouseki (all previous context of kairouseki only allows for short burst/aerobic exertion). The 100% contradiction is the hours and hours of anaerobic exertion shown. For Law, all he needs is to just get out of sight (successfully hide behind the right corner/building). Thus, aerobic exertion. He has to "run" at the correctly inhibited rate after loosing Hawkins. This is a perfect example of how Oda's attention to detail only allows 1 rational explanation if you connect all previous context. Him successfully running the entire time contradicts the duration normal kairouseki inhibits. This is how fast the original 20.5 years of context can be discussed. One if not multiple points of context will be contradicted with the alternative explanation (of course the exact details can vary the main concept cannot be questioned).
    And I'll say again that you both are still new to analyzing the series on a weekly basis. From all of this, you will start to see the "negative" sides that I'm talking about. Worst case scenario is that Oda starts to ruin the series. It is still very, very far from that but the seed has already been planted. If you want, going back and discussing how 100% rock-solid the first 20.5 years of the series is my proof. Even with haki, the basic rationale has been set. The lack of planning and explanation is why there is room for different interpretations.
     

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