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The Truth Behind Devil Fruits and SMILEs and The Reason Why Blackbeard Can Use Two Abilities.

Discussion in 'One Piece Theories' started by Yuuzume, Mar 14, 2018.

  1. Pacquiao8

    8th Commander of the Straw Hat Grand Fleet
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    Hopefully, more OP-related threads will be like this one, and with more members participating.
     
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  2. Kia

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    I believe that that’s the intent behind the debate events. Though those are short term, they are to be lively discussions of One Piece, if I understand correctly. ^_^
     
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  3. Pacquiao8

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    Yes it is, so as the Theory of the Month/Season for the OP Theories section. Problem is, we have very few active theorists around.
     
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  4. Seiryu

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    Umm...both the manga and the anime both show the ground transforming and "seeping" up into biscuits. Even if we ignore the details on the mechanics, an awakening is defined by the ability to produce "element" separate from one's body. All logia and paramecia can only "control" their element that they touch (Ace/Sabo can manipulate and become "one" with a fire if they touch it => more facade of complexity in that the categorization/details of logia vs. paramecia vs. awakening are all clearly defined if you pay attention to the oversimplified categorization. Thinking there is overlap is where overthinking/misconceptions occur). Creating and or manipulating something not in direct contact with the user's body is an awakening. Confusion stems when something like Magellan's "Venom Road" is used, but he is in constant contact with the poison being constantly extruded in front of him. We should be able to go through any and all instances (of course the immediate exception is WCI B.S. of the "sea slug" but that is a walking contradiction to the "sea", "sea's energy", and kairouseki so I shouldn't have to argue against that B.S.).
    And I will reference "mastery". Being able to sporadically and randomly use it is no where close to mastery (and by definition it is the exact opposite). Isla (or whatever her name), is a master of mantra/elite of the elite kenbunshoku from birth.
    Huh? I am saying that you are by definition, only sticking to "canon" material. The SBS, databooks, specials, etc. are not "canon" by definition. However, Oda is obviously treating it as canon material. If you want to have inaccuracies, stick to what you're doing. Time will play out soon enough (mechanics of a Yonkou level fight, Jinbei fighting seriously, etc.).
    And we've already addressed that point on that the manga scene matches what it "top tier" for that point in the manga. Compared to Luffy's Gear Fourth, Luffy should beat both of them. Neither of them achieve Soru level speeds visually (both the lack of visual and sound effects confirms this). If you want to still think both of them are truly that weak at that point, then ain't nothing I say going to ever change your bias. However, on a conscious level you realize that you are contradicting Oda himself. He didn't draw it (we all agree on that), but he is having revisionist history and TELLING us it was there despite his lack of showing it. At what other point in the series has Oda ever done this? Other than extremely irrelevant details, Oda never does this because "real" content matches up 100%. Because the puzzle is so extensive, it is impossible to not contradict previous "canon" material with B.S. changes.
    WHAT?! The most obvious discrepancy is kenbunshoku. It does not even have to be Katakuri level. Why does neither of them avoid blatant power strikes? If someone is mad at you, and you see them winding up, do you just stand there and take it? Even if we ignore the mechanics/details of the fight, this conflict of what Oda is saying is "canon"/"real" material is what I'm getting at. Your entire perspective is going to be inaccurate (slightly only and primarily towards predictive matters). Lets go through some of those New World examples. Many are already being confirmed to have haki (just same crap from Oda not drawing it because of poorly planned haki). If they are relevant fighters, they are going to have it (people like Doffy's exec's come to mind right off the bat). Minor/insignificant fighters (relative to the bosses/captains) of course are not going to have haki.
    I was speed reading and just read the vice-admirals and punching bags. Either way, context implies all admirals have Katakuri level kenbunshoku. Again, there are very few factors that contribute to "combat capabilities". Yonkou and admiral level fighters have to have almost all of them high (if we exclude advanced technology, then they probably have 90+% proficiency in all of the categories => Shanks is the exception with fruit abilities, so he HAS to have 95+% proficiency in all other areas).
    And that's a big part of Oda's struggle to keep fights interesting. The rest of the series is a bottleneck. It is only going to be the elite of the elite (for major arcs; discussing with Pac-man, we may get some "weakling" WCI II arc; Katakuri will be a "weakling" once Luffy gets his awakening).
    No. Our conversation has always been haki driven. I'd happily go onto breaking down the other parts, since that is something that has always been consistent the entire series (just like the awakening vs. logia vs. paramecia aspect; speaking of which, the general consensus was immediately awakening among the readers here so feel free to check that chapter discussion).
    Oda is saying "this should be considered canon" and you keep dancing around it. I'm out of time so I'll read the rest of the responses later.
     
  5. Yuuzume

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    Cracker wasn't introduced as an awakened devil fruit user.Both the manga and the anime show biscuits appear in the air and then changing into biscuit soldiers.And as for how they appear in the air,it is explained that it is merely Cracker manipulating the crushed biscuit dust in the area.Look at the location where Luffy and Cracker are fighting at and the ground there.Like buildings,roads,etc in the islands of Big Mom's territory,the ground is made up of sweets and that presumably includes biscuits as well.As Cracker is touching the ground,he's constantly connected to his "element". He's not like Doffy who turned the stone into strings,he's merely manipulating the already existing pieces of biscuits that exist in the proximity.That is further supported by the fact that Luffy ate those biscuits.Judging from the fact that Dressrosa wasn't left as a town with roads and houses made of strings,Doffy's strings presumably turned back into stone after he was defeated.If the ground where Luffy and Cracker fought was dirt and Cracker had turned that dirt into biscuits,that means that Luffy would have eaten massive amounts of dirt and yet no such thing was mentioned.
    004_1475645390.png
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    Aisha is a genius in the sense that she had unlocked haki when she was born,the same as Otohime.However,both were not trained in using it so they couldn't do so at will or restrain it.As for Ace,and any other character that may have merely unlocked haki,that is what I've been saying.The fact that he unlocked it doesn't mean that he had mastered it the moment he did so.Just because we know that he had unlocked it by the time of his fight with Teach doesn't mean that he could use it at will.The reason why he didn't use it could very well be because he could not do so at will.

    The fact that I don't follow those sources myself doesn't mean that I deny any information from them.I've taken Ace's case of unlocking haki into account ever since Jawa introduced it and verified that it was canon content.And even after taking it into account,we concluded that that piece of information only showed Ace unlocking busoshoku haki and it is by no means an indication of him training in using it or being able to do so.I've been asking you,and did so multiple times,for a piece of information like that,which can conclusively prove your point,and yet you haven't shown me any.If there is another piece of information from those sources relevant to this discussion other than Ace unlocking busoshoku (since we've already taken that into account),which can conclusively prove your point,then by all means,please go ahead and show it.I've asked this several times and yet you're saying that I ignore all those sources.Any relevant piece of information from those sources is welcome,but please speak about specific information and not simply mention that SBS,databooks,etc can prove your point is general.

    I see.You mean like how Law was first introduced as "Trafalgar Law" but was later revealed to be named "Trafalgar D. Water Law"? Is that what you refer to as an extremely irrelevant detail? Did you mean like how both Vivi's and Doffy's families were both introduced as normal families but were later revealed to be part of the 20 founder families of the World Government? Is that what you consider an extremely irrelevant detail? Or did you mean like how Crocus first said that the last island of the Grand Line would be Raftel but was later revealed that the last island of the Grand Line was meant to inform the people who go there of the existence of the Road Poneglyphs? I could even say that Oda originally intended to have Raftel be the last island of the Grand Line but then changed his mind.Is that what you refer to as an extremely irrelevant detail? Or did you mean like how we've seen numerous top tier devil fruits users like Whitebeard,Marco,Akainu,Aokiji,Kizaru,etc while believing that devil fruits were limited to granting certain abilities but then found out that devil fruits are actually capable of affecting the user's surroundings by awakening? Is that what you refer to an extremely irrelevant detail? Or did you mean like how we thought that Luffy and Ace were only two brothers but then found out about Sabo after Ace's death? Is that what you consider an extremely irrelevant detail?

    Did you want Oda to state every possible detail about every aspect that will ever appear in the series the moment that aspect is introduced? Devil fruits were introduced in the very first chapter/episode.Should Oda have mentioned the awakening stage from the very first chapter/episode? Should he have told us Law's full name when he first appeared at Sabaody archipelago? Should he have made the circumstances of Vivi's and Doffy's families clear from the get go? Should he have informed us about Sabo the moment Ace was introduced? Should he have mentioned the Road Poneglyphs at the Twin Cape through Crocus? Important aspects of the series are simply revealed to us layer by layer to maximize the suspense of the series and keep it fresh throughout the experience of reading through it.If every detail of an aspect was revealed the moment of its introduction,there also wouldn't be a need for flashbacks at all.Haki is simply such an aspect which hasn't been fully revealed yet.And even then,Oda has separated the mere unlocking of haki with the proper usage of it after training.He has done so through Rayleigh's original explanation and through examples like Coby and even Ace and Luffy,who first unlocked haki normally but couldn't control it without training,and Aisha and Otohime,who had unlocked it since birth but couldn't control it due to lack of training in using it.Going back in the story through


    And where exactly,even in any SBS,databook,etc,does it state that either Ace or Teach had trained in using either type of haki (especially Teach)? Through the aforementioned examples above,it has been shown that merely unlocking haki doesn't equal to being able to properly use it? So let me once again ask you to please show me the piece of information that states that either Ace or Teach had trained in using haki prior to their fight.Unless that point is proven,then I don't see how that fight can be considered as a definite mistake in the current haki content.

    That would make everyone an Admiral level powerhouse.Most fighters have been normally shown to be very proficient in one or two aspects while the rest are either merely adequate or weak.For example,Katakuri was proficient in kenbunshoku,had adequate speed to make better use of his predictions but had relatively weak defenses (mostly in contrast to his other abilities). You make every person out to be all around fighters that have mastered the majority of the aspects involved in a fight.However,I personally don't agree with that line of thinking.True all around fighters like Shanks haven't shown to be many and even they haven't necessarily mastered more than one or two aspects of fighting.That type of fighting just signifies that they are at least adequate at most of the aspects of fighting without having specific weaknesses or overly specialized types of fighting styles and have similar amounts of compatibility with all types of opponents.Simply put,they are jacks of all trades and some of them possibly master of few.Not every character is a monster like Shanks or Rayleigh.

    Similarly to what I say above,I don't think that all of the elite of the elite characters are or will be as godlike as you describe them to be.

    Our conversation has mostly been about reaching a conclusion as to whether there is an inconsistency in the haki content or not,it doesn't mean that haki is the sole deciding factor in the result of a fight.Also,you say that those aspects of fighting have been consistent but their weigh has been changing throughout the series.At first we thought that Logias could only be beaten through element compatibility or other Logia abilities.Then,haki balanced things out and devil fruits lost much influence in the results of a fight.And now,with the awakening,devil fruits got back some of that influence.

    Dancing around it? I've been treating the fact that Ace was shown to have unlocked haki in the respective light novel as canon ever since Jawa introduced it and then verified that it was indeed canon content.We had even talked about whether or not it was canon at the time and I properly recognized it as such.Rather,I'm saying that that point only proves that Ace had unlocked haki,not that he had trained in it and was capable of properly using it prior to his fight with Teach.I didn't dance around it at all.I straight up accepted it when it was properly proven as canon content and then treated it as such ever since the discussion between you,me,Jawa and Kia.And the conclusion then was that that point could not conclusively prove that there is any problem with the current haki content.Whether or not there will be one on the future are two possibilities both to which I'm open to,but Ace's fight with Teach is no inconsistency at the moment and can be considered ambiguous at best.Claiming that there is either a problem with the current haki content or that there will definitely be one in the future without basing it on a point that supports it and conclusively proves it is not enough to convince me to consider said scenario as anything more than a possibility.

    I've said this in the last couple of replies but let me say it once more so that we can stop making circles.I've asked you to either continue the conversation with you properly trying to convince me or else and it here.The fact that it's still going on should logically mean that you're willing to properly convince me of your opinion but you're still considering your opinion as absolutely correct without showing me any proof to support that absoluteness and simply expect me to blindly accept it.In a conversation where both possibilities should be equal to each other inherently and should depend on solid points to be convincing,you view yours as inherently correct without any need for proof and what should have originally been you trying to convince me has thus turned to you trying to "open my eyes to the correct opinion".

    The very reason for which I originally joined the forum was to experience opinions other than my own,so I welcome the opinions of others.But if you want to treat yours as absolutely correct and expect me to accept it as such without basing it on points which conclusively prove it or trying to convince me of it won't lead to me treating as anything other than a possibility.I don't harbor any illusions of either Oda being omnipotent or expectations of the series to be perfect.The moment that I become aware of an inconsistency/mistake is the moment when I will call it a mistake.However,I won't be quick on the trigger and shoot proper content either. This conversation of you trying to "open my eyes to the truth" has gone on for quite long and it has come full circle several times already.If you're willing to try and convince me of your opinion properly then I'm still I'm up for continuing.However,if we're going to keep going in circles with you trying to get me to accept your opinion as a certainty without convincing me of it,then let's end it here please.
     
  6. Kia

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    Yet again, this didn’t post. Here it is.

    They show dust turning into biscuits. That dust comes from him. 390F3328-68D0-4547-A5A7-EE81B5F08816.png That’s what Cracker said, after creating biscuits initially into the air, then the dust is formed and even more biscuits are formed “from the ground.” In the manga, we don’t see this scene, we only see the dust on the ground forming new biscuits instead of seeing him convert them into dust first.

    FE876B96-FA39-4C6A-ABD4-CA0ED1EA8243.jpeg This is how awakening was explained. If your definition were true, then Robin’s fruit would be awakened. The bis-bis fruit seems to be making biscuits appear out of the air the same way the Hana-Hana fruit makes body parts bloom anywhere. If she’s not awakened by definition, then neither is he. It’s simply the nature of their fruits as far as I can see.

    Okay my phone is acting up and I can’t get my quotes to behave but as far as the quote/mastery reference, excuse my French but what in the actual hell do you think I’ve/we’ve been saying for the past few months? Ever since the moment that the novel information was introduced and analyzed, we came to the conclusion that Ace unlocked Haki but didn’t have proper control, training or mastery over it to be able to utilize it during the fight with Blackbeard thus there was no inconsistency until we received conclusive evidence to the contrary. Maybe I’m just really bad at expressing myself. I realize that I do not take as much time to explicitly spell things out and articulate my arguments as @Yuuzume does. I try to give people the benefit of the doubt and hope that they can follow along without needing all of the baby steps because I do not want to sound condescending by accident. I’m trying to avoid this, however, it’s possible that my points have been missed at times or I’ve been misunderstood or misinterpreted. If that’s the case, I do regret it. Alas, nothing to be done about the past. I’ll endeavour to be more clear henceforth. ^_^
     
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  7. Seiryu

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    All of you guys are apologizing for things unnecessarily. If you had a illogical perspective, that would be one thing. I would assume it is the same for others that a different perspective is always welcome. We had a break too so that probably helps.
    I could care less (and you know that). If you connect the dots, the answer is there. Doing the same thing over and over for 14 years now is why I probably do things the way I do. It probably stems from a selfish origin => I just want people to discuss with as much accuracy as possible. Just like in the chapter discussion, the scary thing is that personal biases can completely skew thoroughly established content (Page 1's combat capabilities/rankings, Usopp's ability to work with advanced technology, etc.). The exact same thing is going on here. Would my opinion be much more receptive if I had a different writing style? Damn straight. It is nice to make friends, but that isn't my primary goal here.

    I'm super curious to read your new thread though. The puzzle pieces have always matched, and every fan here knows that either consciously or subconsciously.
    And personally, I've done this long enough that the oversimplified trend is that anyone with a negative bias will exaggerate the negativity. I am blunt, but I never directly attack. I have to assume Owl either has a neutral or positive bias towards my writing style since I wouldn't have been asked to be a mod if not. It came up, and the advice I was given was correct: people will interpret it how they want. I will do my best to learn/adapt, but I can't change my personality or my writing style enough to fit everyone's individual biases.

    The content speaks for itself though. I've been trying to microanalyze other parts of the series here, since that would be more fun. Based on what you're describing, I may be much more blunt about it, but Oda's facade of complexity is how the series works.
    Of course I won't, but @Yuuzume should do the same with my comments. Tony probably described it to me the best: I have to "rip" people's posts apart to prove my point. This is where the natural human tendency is to take it as an "attack". The discussions here literally got to the point of perspectives at the core of our personalities/unique traits that make each of us our own. It may be impossible to remove the negative bias towards me once it is created, but ultimately that's one solution. If a neutral party reads my comments, I am just going to have to debate against the opposing opinion. I will do my best to try to minimize the potential of perceiving an "attack", which why I was super curious to see why he thought I perceived an attack when I did not. It would be a great learning experience for me that I can universally apply to everything I write here.

    Because I have done nothing but literary analysis from 8th grade through grad school (only needed 1 English credit for all of my sciency degrees though...), I am naturally overanalytical. Because I have done nothing but times writings, my writing style is excessively blunt because I had to get to the point. I speak completely differently, but constant repetition is why I've "mastered" this writing style. It is physically impossible for me to do anything else. All I can do is just get feedback so that I can at least try to minimize the potential of perceiving an attack.
    Unfortunately (our conversation discussion from the Jinbei tangent is the exact same thing), the content is literally too good at this point. Because 99+% of the 22 years of content is so solid, any theory can be shot full of holes with all of the breadcrumbs as ammunition. I'll say it again, completely changing this discussion to microanalyze anything else is going to be more fun. If it doesn't come up, I'll start with the basic break down of "combat capabilities". I'll probably tag @Marco Polo too because I am completely baffled as to his bias on over-ranking Page 1.

    So there are only a few factors that contribute to "combat capabilities". The biggest one that is severely limited in the number of people that use it is advanced technology (may become more prevalent since Oda decided to make a whole group of them). This part is self-explanatory and since so few people use it, it is literally only if they posses it or not.

    The elephant in the room: haki. We're probably best completely ignoring this...

    Devil fruit abilities: another pretty black and white category where either you have it or you don't. The level of mastery is key since we have mastery of the basic fruit abilities (Luffy is the best example of exploiting the unique traits to create the various Gears; this goes back to Croc's comments on how little mastery Luffy has when they fight), as well as the super-mode of awakening. Naturally, the awakening puts someone much, much higher because of the "magical" aspects to the ability.

    So I do have to go on one previous tangent: cake does not equal biscuit. Cracker has to have an awakening because he is not on his designated island. If the fight took place on his "Biscuit Island", the above counter-arguments make 100% sense. I will be blunt, but I will always highlight the content. Oda used to plan every single detail since the fans are rabid for every single detail. I don't want you to have a negative bias, but I can't change that directly (this goes to anyone reading the comment and applies to all of my comments). Also contextually, Cracker having an awakening matches his ranking. Of course there are exceptions (to combat capabilities within a tier/classification)/grouping, but same thing with Sanji vs. Page 1. Luffy looks like absolute crap if he struggles that much with a lower ranking Cracker. The content drives/points towards one direction.

    The last (per my bias) is physical capabilities. Ultimately, this is primarily driven by muscles. Muscles will determine every factor to movement/performance => thus all physical factors related to "combat capabilities" (power/physical strength, destructive power [sometimes different from brute strength and I can expand if necessary], endurance, speed, agility/evasiveness, etc.). From my line of work, this category is a rating of how "athletic" a person is. Elite of the elite athletes are born with the "proprioceptive" capabilities in that their body just has astronomically greater sensory input (and thus astronomically greater coordination/control). This can be trained with the right exercising, but the level of "natural talent" makes a huge difference on the starting point (Luffy/Zoro/Sanji all started with natural talent compared to the rest of the crew).

    Oda does an excellent job of making things to scale with "oversized humans". They literally have more muscle mass, and thus they literally have more "combat capabilities" than all others. Luffy literally has the same destructive power as a giant in Gear Third because his "muscle mass" is being increased to a giant level (incorrect physics of course, but that's the "manga logic").

    Of course we have technique related powers (like regional specialties: Electro, Ninjutsu, Gyojin Karate, etc.). But that all comes down to "fighting styles". That's completely unique to the person and only comes up in individual match-ups (the fighting cliche of "styles makes fights" is true since Luffy 100% is at a disadvantage against anyone with a blade).

    There may be other exceptions I'm not thinking of right now, but those are the main categories. Accuracy in the exact tier/rating for each category is possible, but naturally the physical capabilities category is so broad that misconceptions are almost expected to occur. The consistency of Oda's writing has and should negate this since we have volume/numbers to make accurate comparisons/ratings.
    I shouldn't have read this...(and if that's the worst of your French that's a great reflection of your morals/character). However, Oda is telling us Ace and Blackbeard both have proficiency to use haki at that point. They may not have "mastered" it to Katakuri levels (content of their power levels aside). That's my whole point. Oda is saying one thing, but your bias is twisting it. You are both arguing against Oda on this point. You have a negative bias towards me, but the content will speak for itself. That's why changing the topic is all for the better.
     
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  8. Pacquiao8

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    Can't blame him, he's a Sanji fan (can possibly be a fanboi).
     
  9. Kia

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    Not to put words in anyone’s mouths but the reason for the “perceived attack” or whathaveyou seems to be pretty clear. You stated one thing and he responded as such:
    68BF6787-1F1F-4505-868A-8C57975C1EDB.jpeg
    Hopefully that helps to clarify things. As you have a snapshot and can click to see the full original posts. ^_^

    Okay, I obviously wasn’t clear enough and need to figure out how to record segments of video from the internet. My apologies for presuming that I didn’t need to spell out those extra steps and also for thinking that the quotation marks were sufficient to convey my meaning in combination with the other information that I had provided. Let’s do this in steps:
    1. Cracker claps his hands & materializes biscuits into/out of thin air
    2. Cracker activates Crushed Biscuits
    3. Biscuits turn to dust
    4. Biscuit dust is everywhere including the ground
    5. Cracker claps his hands and shapes/forms more biscuits “from the ground” which is covered in biscuit dust thus it is not the ground but the dust that is being utilized.

    You cite logic and context, etc as your rationale. That’s just more of you arbitrarily deciding your head canon and imposing it on the story. Cracker is one of the Sweet Three Generals of a yonko. Luffy may be the protagonist but he’s not an overpowered, do everything yourself kind of guy. He’s supposed to struggle a bit. He’s supposed to need help. It was about the difference between the Mugiwara family and the Charlotte and Germa notions of family. The types of power and strength that truly matter come from solidarity, caring and support, not cruelty, cunning and domination. Or maybe that’s my interpretation of this arc that just came out as a side tangent while I meant to be talking about things like the fact that it’s a yonko commander, if it’s not comparable to a warlord at least, then what’s the point? But you can be comparable to a warlord in strength without having an awakened devil fruit. There’s Boa, Kuma, Jimbei, Mihawk to name examples of ones who fit the bill of those without awakened DF (latter two don’t even have devil fruit).


    If Cracker were awakened, then why was Luffy so shocked when he discovered Katakuri’s awakening? If he had just dealt with an awakened DF user while in Totto Land, then another wouldn’t have surprised him. But he was clearly surprised to know that Katakuri had awakened his DF and mentioned Doffy, not Cracker as the other person who had a similar power plus, it’s clearly stated that it’s rare. starting from 1:46 onwards you’ll see what I’m talking about. If this was completely off base from the intent of the manga, they wouldn’t have included it in the anime.


    Wait what? Blackbeard wasn’t even mentioned in the Ace novel. Where did that come from (oh how I hate ending sentences with prepositions but the proper way sounds so pretentious)? I’m so lost that this needs to be dropped. That’s been the whole point is that there’s been no definitive proof provided. I was going to clarify my statement because I saw that I had misspoken when I’d intended to state that the conclusion that there was no definitive evidence that Ace could use Haki at will, thus there was no contradiction. He was able to unlock and utilize it in a single fight but that’s all that was shown. If other evidence were to come up, then a contradiction would be present. However, none was seen to exist at the time. And yeah, it’s irrelevant because there’s apparently nothing left to discuss here. (Though thanks for the character compliment.) ^_^
     
  10. Yuuzume

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    I've asked this before too but why would you say things that indicate that I've either perceived an attack or will do so when neither are you attacking nor am I perceiving an attack? You originally said this:
    and I don't know why you would be worried about that as I've never had such an intention and I even directly stated that I don't perceive your comments as an attack to clear up any misunderstandings and yet you're still saying such things.Why do you believe that I perceive your comments as attacks? Breaking down posts into parts and referring to each one,regardless of one's writing style,only comes down to trying to prove your own point.There's nothing wrong with that and in a conversation,where conflicting points clash against each other,it's completely reasonable.Furthermore,if my opinion can be proven wrong or can be changed then it means that there is an opinion other mine that either disproves mine or makes more sense than mine in explaining the matter at hand.Such an occasion is one that I welcome with open arms as bettering my view on separate subjects can further better my view of the whole series.Two examples that pop into my head immediately are Jawa (@Jawahib ) and Booker and I'm thankful to them both for both introducing wondering opinions to me or correcting my own and for the patience and understanding they showed while doing so.So to make a long story short,I don't mind you either over analyzing my comments,ripping them apart or being blunt about it and if that could lead to convincing me of an opinion different than my own then that means that would even be beneficial for me and it's something I welcome.However,for any convincing to happen,you'd need to try and convince me of your opinion and not simply inform me of it while stating that it's the only correct one and that it's a 100% certain fact and then expect me to simply accept it.

    I agree with the breakdown of a character's fighting capabilities and I'd personally like to propose adding "experience/fighting tactics" in the mix if that's alright and makes sense.That aspect is what allows a character to essentially turn all of their "abilities" into "fighting capability". For example,Oda could give all of Shanks' or Hawkeye's abilities to Cabaji (the swordsman in Buggy's crew) but I seriously doubt that Cabaji would have the same fighting capabilities as Shanks and Hawkeye.It essentially comes down to how efficiently a character can wield all of the weapons (abilities) they have in their arsenal.

    As for Cracker,two of the pictures that I show actually showcase the ground as being biscuits so I don't see why Cracker wouldn't be able to manipulate that.Still,I won't insist on it,Kia's view on Crackers abilities seems to be more logical than mine.The example of Robin that she mentioned is a prime one on this case.Robin hasn't even been introduced as a character that knows of the existence of awakening and yet her power allows he to manifest body parts upon any solid surface.Similarly to Cracker,their abilities can be considered as that of special Paramecia.However,both have been shown to simply be able to manifest their "element" without direct contact with it but they haven't been shown as altering the structure of solid objects to turn them into their own element,like awakening allows one to do.


    As I have been asking for quite a while,could you please show me where exactly it was stated that Ace and Teach,especially Teach,are proficient in using haki.Either it's in the series or during our conversation,I don't recall any piece of information that states such a thing so if you know such information,then please share it.I've said it before but it would actually be very helpful and if you base your opinion on it,it would be equal to trying to convince me of your point through it and could very possibly manage to do so.It may seem like nitpicking,but if we don't differentiate between unlocking haki and being proficient in using it,then Coby should have been able to instantly use kenbunshoku the moment he unlocked it,Aisha and Otohime should have had complete control of their abilities and Luffy should have been able to use haki the moment he unlocked.It'd even make a joke out of the two years that Coby and Luffy spent training is using haki.So it may seem unimportant when looking at the big picture,proving that characters were proficient in using haki and hadn't just unlocked it actually makes substantial difference in the end.In any case,if you have information that prove your point,then please do share it.If not,then as I've said before,continuing this debate won't lead to any progress so I agree with you that changing the topic would be all for the better.
     
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  11. Seiryu

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    Haha...didn't know that...but then even more so, he should want Sanji to be able to 1 hit KO him. Or maybe the bias disconnected the analysis on the ramifications on how "relevant" a fighter Sanji is based on the result.
    I'm referring to my direct questioning on a more recent post. @Yuuzume said he thought I perceived an attack based on how I responded. The feedback on that is what's going to be the most beneficial feedback I can get. I think the post I just did in the chapter discussion should help change at least part of the negative bias this thread has created. I'll probably just go back and find the quote since it should be within a page of responses. @Yuuzume
    I don't really recall criticizing you of anything,but sorry if I gave you such an impression.
    This is especially just for personal inquiry: what makes you think I perceived an "attack"?
    This is reference to post #251. I will admit I probably subconsciously skimmed over parts while speed reading so this entire thing would have gone differently if I read through your direct questions as well. So I would be naive to think it I don't have a role to play in trying to find some sort of "progress"/"resolution". Probably perfect timing with the break for everyone (more on this later).
    Then this makes it an awakening. This is the exact same thing as Katakuri's donuts (he does have 1-2 other times of the Doffy example where he creates mochi from parts of Mirror World, but the most frequent "awakening" usage is the floating limbs he creates), the ability to create "element" from anything else is an awakening. I really must be missing something...Are we discussing two different things? Do you not think creating "element" from anything else does not equal an awakening? I'm getting the gist that I just have to ask the right questions to clarify things with you though (I am always trying to learn. It may not be what you want, but I am always trying).

    I'll address the video here: why wouldn't his shock just be from having to deal with an even bigger problem? He already knows he's fighting an uphill battle, and Katakuri pulls out an even bigger advantage (something Katakuri was doing the entire time to try to break Luffy's will). I don't have audio now, so I can't comment on the accuracy of the translation.
    @Yuuzume Let's go into the content details on this: we only have a few examples of the "early" stages of haki (when "weaklings" have haki). Examples off the top of my head: Usopp and Coby (not going to go with the B.S. changing of his name recently). Whether you like it or not, haki is directly related to one's physical capabilities (the real world haki). Every powerhouse that has used haki (the exceptions are the "weaklings" that are still learning how to use it => this directly ties to Oda's power-ups that combat experience itself is the greatest developer, which is 100% true for any form of martial arts/combat or self-defense style/technique) is already proficient because they used it. They are able to readily able to gain proficiency (I cannot use "mastery" here, I guess I could but it is the "mastery" of the basics => being able to grip a ball correctly before being able to throw it proficiently) because it is a "tool" ingrained into their being/their body. In martial arts, and you've probably heard the concept, of training to the point where you "become one with the weapon". Just like Sabo will rapidly gain "mastery" of the basics of the Mera abilities through simply using it/practicing with it, the real life application rapidly allows for mastery of the basics. Chatting online with friends rapidly allows for mastery of typing. Exact same thing. Of course different level of skills being applied, but the concept is universally applicable to any skill.

    Damn it...I lost the right question to ask...Ah: do you think the Mugiwara crew legitimately power-up with each arc/climax fight? The combat experience is the fastest way to gain proficiency. Same thing for language: the fastest way to get better is to move to that country and be forced to learn to survive (before these recent translation devices). Blackbeard has much fewer encounters (since his plan necessitates staying low except for the Shanks opportunity), but Ace is constantly in fights (how many times does he get into trouble during his short time in Alabasta? Plus, he's got "Luffy's blood" of being natural troublemakers). It is impossible for him to be a beginner/Usopp or Coby level haki user. This is why they are proficient when Oda says "they have it".

    If we disregard this, yes, you guys are 100% that they can "have it" and not be proficient. Blackbeard is the only case where that may be possible. However, even if this is the case, that means that every other category has to be higher to make up for the lack of all haki basics (since the comments imply agreement on the foundational aspects of "combat capabilities" => this in turn has a huge ramification of making Blackbeard's current combat capabilities off the charts). Luffy's B.S. addition of foresight level kenbunshoku (contextually, it makes a lot more sense if Oda was saving this for Kaidou) is a perfect example of this. When you have talent, proficiency is natural and rapid. For those without it, it just takes astronomically more practice to get to the same level.

    I'll spread it here as well. The series is going to go to crap if Oda keeps up with the B.S. The fact that other's see it (and people you guys respect => Jawa) starting to take root is something we all should be worrying about as fans of this series. Those of us that microanalyze are going to see it before others. It is still small enough that the series will not fall apart if it is preventatively minimized quickly enough (even all of our community is too small probably). With how fast Oda snowballed the B.S. (big enough that Pac-man and Ryokugyu see it now), it is at a minimum skewing the details of how both the Big Mom and Kaidou wars get resolved rationally. Because the impact of each Yonkou has on the series, this arc alone could create huge negative ripples on the rest of the series.

    I'm going to trust my read, but I think @Jawahib is starting to worry about the series too. I'm only one person, so the amount of influence I can have is minuscule, but with the dramatic progression of B.S. it's no longer about just having higher quality discussions anymore. I can easily see this truly epic series going to crap (and the fact that other's are picking up on this is the validation). All of you probably would like if I had a different means of doing it, but I have the same underlying driving force as a fan of One Piece. I am probably better off getting something of impact on Oda trying all of this on a Japanese forum (I truly think how much Oda cares about foreign forums is probably just as much as I care about how much I'm liked online), but I gave my word to Owl to help out here, so I'll just have to stick to try to get at least to get a preventative movement going before it's too late.
    Excellent. That's exactly how I feel. I want to learn more about the series, and the more accurate everyone here is with their analysis, the more fun I get to have. It is a selfish motivation, but I wouldn't be volunteering my time here if I wasn't getting something out of it (I heard @Marco Polo gets paid...). I make more than enough with my work, so I have no need for that but I did hear a rumor and it is nothing more than to poke fun at this mass of text (the 4 months worth or however long it is).

    I do not care if I change your mind or not. If I oversimplify it (any human interaction naturally has multiple layers to it), it comes down to that if you change your perspective, I get the benefit of even greater discussions (we still had people responding "OMG the One Piece" when I first joined, and that's my biggest One Piece pet peeve because of how shallow their level of appreciation/comprehension of the literary mastery is => Of course everyone has the right to their own perspective, but damn they are missing out on the closest thing to perfection I've seen in the world [previously 100% connectivity/rationale and over 20 freakin years, 22 freakin years for 99+% since the seed is still small]). However, now that there is a legitimate risk of the series completely falling apart (still only a seed, but it's taking root and again, I will defer to the people you guys respect to verbalize/convince you that I'm not spouting 100% B.S.), this entire discussion has a much bigger importance now.

    I will readily admit I would be much more liked by people if I could magically change my writing style. However, the content speaks for itself. I have such a strong bias because of the 100% consistency for 19.5 years. I do talk about negative crap, but that's because I saw the potential for it to grow. If your significant other (of 14 years, since that's how long I've been microanalyzing) suddenly changes a core moral value (the fundamental writing style Oda uses), would your relationship still go smoothly?

    Ah, almost forgot: I got a better way of describing the facade of complexity. In order to keep track of all of these minor details, simplicity in writing is naturally the easiest means of keeping things rational and organized. The complexity comes from being able to connect all of them. We are all humans, and Oda is by far the most self-aware of that (why he despises being called God-Oda from the start).

    Should get back to the responding though since I think I've made my point on why the B.S. is so important.
    No, of course. I 100% agree (I already reference this exact point in the Blackbeard/Ace/haki aspect). My martial arts bias doesn't really make that as much of a "quantifiable" aspect (for me, just like the natural gift/natural talent, either you have it or you don't; just like the mastery, those that don't have it require exponentially greater experience to gain the same proficiency, which is exactly why "geniuses" or elite of the elite pro athletes still have to work damn hard, with their motivation driving them to put in more work than others), I do think it is absolutely is a highly impactful area (if you could magically take the experience away, they become a much lower ranked fighter). In the nitty-gritty, because it is tied to "talent", we will probably have astronomically greater differences of opinion (all other categories are very straight forward).
    Ah, I know that "biscuit ground" you guys are talking about now. Yes, that comes after he activates his awakining (the fire on his hair goes into overdrive). He "created" biscuits from dirt.

    And Robin's "element" comes with the additional limitation of she has to be able to see the object to "sprout" on it (she bypasses that with sprouting an eye on her hand but the overload of visual stimulus literally takes a physical toll on her). Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall the ground ever being called "biscuit" in any other instance that the above awakening (he does the same technique directly: sometimes it "seeps" up and sometimes it just manifests => more B.S. inconsistencies because of the poor planning). The main WCI island is a normal island, but the castle is designed like a cake. There are the various juice rivers, but that's just flowing from the castle I would assume. If they were fighting on Cracker's "Biscuit Island", that 100% fits. Now that you bring it up, it is possible that a biscuit homie is there and provides the "raw material". However, the ability to create additional/new material from that is implying awakening (the whole law of alchemy thing; I'm not familiar from the alchemy standpoint, of course very familiar from a chemistry standpoint, so I'll stay vague). However, the content shows how the homies all flee/die from the haoshoku.

    I need to expand on the "special paramecia" aspect. Oda's pattern is to sporadically have exceptions (naturally it will have high levels of impact), but explain the hell out of them to keep everything 100% rational. Even if it's subconsciously, the aspect of trying to seek out the exception is the pattern I'm seeing. Is it possible the Biscuit Biscuit ability is one of these? I would argue the content implies not.

    The simplest answer is an awakening. Of course there are times Oda has to go back and correct things (the Rayleigh training explanations, Ace/Blackbeard, etc.). Maybe he goes back like Toki and the kunoichi's B.S. abilities and adds the "clarification" later.
     
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  12. Kia

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    Transforming something else into your element equals an awakening. However generating your element separate from your body is not an awakening, it’s simply a property of some fruits. For example, Robin’s fruit grows her body parts and was explained that way. Galette is capable of generating butter outside her body (I’ve never seen her turn into butter either only manipulate it) and use it to restrain people.
    74548030-4309-4305-9B99-5E7762E0655D.jpeg
    So these are examples of element coming out of thin air for paramecia users that aren’t awakening but the very nature of the fruits themselves. A power doesn’t automatically mean that your body becomes the thing. It simply means that you’ve undergone a change related to the thing. Thus for the food related DFs, it stands to reason that they could with be the food, make the food or both (as is the case with Opera and Katakuri). Sugar turns people into toys; she isn’t one herself—her very fruit is one that transforms others. To awaken it would be to not need to touch others directly and to transmit the effects via inanimate objects or to transform her surroundings into toys to do her bidding as well. Who knows? Mont d’Or manipulates books; he is not a book.


    Okay, Doflamingo is made of string and his awakening turns other things into string, same for Katakuri and his Mochi. So the thing about it is that it seems that Cracker’s ability creates biscuits, not that it turns him into biscuits and creates biscuits. I never once saw evidence that he was made of biscuits, maybe I missed something. Robin’s fruit grows her body parts on her person and in other places. That’s the nature of her fruit.
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    They’re both special as far as I can tell. But not that special, as I’ve shown above, devil fruits have quirks and are what they are. Furthermore, when looking at the moments when he’s building his soldiers, he clearly says that he uses the crumbs. Regardless of the anime elaborating on it or not. And he starts off wearing biscuits around his waist so he has material from which to work, if we want to get super technical on whether or not he can be creating the very first biscuits out of nothing (not to mention all the crumbs on the ground).

    I checked out that increased fire in his hair signaling awakening thing because it had never occurred to me (I didn’t see it before) and I really thought that you had come up with something awesome there that was going to change my mind. I searched for it but didn’t see any changes in the size of the fire from when he was first revealed from his armor and when he starts/continues making the biscuit soldiers so was there something else to which you were referring?

    As does generating more biscuits on Cracker. He has to have the stamina to keep it up.
    08637A11-8E37-4660-85A8-D3F67CE2D91D.jpeg
    Furthermore we’ve never (to my recollection) seen anyone generate element somewhere that they couldn’t see. Even Eneru’s judgments were within his “sight” due to mantra.

    Interesting perspective. I’m not saying that shock couldn’t come from there. I get the whole “I didn’t see that coming” route but it only makes sense to me if Cracker wasn’t awakened because if he was then that’s even more reason for Luffy not to be surprised since he literally just dealt with that issue and this guy should be at least as strong.

    That perspective also doesn’t address why the reference to Doflamingo as the awakened devil fruit user instead of the more recent experience. We tend to pull from what’s in the forefront of our minds and, as much as Cracker hit nerves with those cruel words, he’d have remembered to reference that fight that just occurred if he’d been awakened as well. In fact, he’d have commented on it at the time and thrown the Doffy flashback in at that moment, methinks.


    Ace has been shown to be combination of naturally talented, carefree, oddly motivated, powerful, super cocky and confused about Haki. The Whitebeard pirates aren’t shown to have any sort of training regimens per se. So while he is shown to fight a fair bit, he’s not shown using the Haki that he uncovered the one time so it begs the question of did he forget about it while he was with his former crew (just like his Haoshoku Haki) since the rest of them knew nothing of such things? Even with training, Luffy’s Busoshoku wasn’t very strong at the beginning. So being able to activate it during one fight doesn’t mean that he could do it again reliably or even knew how to try. His character went from beating things with a pipe to relying on his devil fruit. That was, in essence, who he was—a destruction fighter who depended on not getting hit/hurt up close to survive. That’s my take on him, anyways. Hmm, I just read the summary of the last part of Novel A and it says that he managed to burn Whitebeard. That makes things interesting. I mean, is it because it was a sneak attack and Whitebeard wasn’t guarding as well (no Busoshoku)? They said it’s because Ace was getting stronger. That could be interpreted in many ways either that he was getting fast and wily enough to land a solid hit or his flames/power was strong enough to actually leave a mark. We know that paramecia users can be injured by logias so it’s not out of the realm of possibilities. But what gets me is the bit about Shanks and Beckmann referring to Ace’s Haki as fiery. Like if they could sense his Haki then it would have to be his Haoshoku, right? and if his presence was so strong then why did Whitebeard ignore it? Or was moving him up through the ranks the way of acknowledging it.

    Regardless, even if we accept the premise that Ace was proficient in Busoshoku at the time of either the fight with Smoker or Blackbeard, using it wouldn’t have been beneficial to his goals because it only serves two purposes really: hardening and allowing you to grab intangible logias. It’s not as if it actually is a weakness of devil fruits in the same way that kairoseiki is. If he tried to grab Smoker, he’d risk getting himself captured. Thus a distance delay tactic using the basic devil fruit weaknesses that they have was the best strategy there. In the case of Blackbeard, I believe he planned to kill him so frying him seemed like a good plan. Once he realized he could be hit, it probably didn’t occur to him to protect himself with Busoshoku because he’d never had to use it that way before due to his preferred fighting styles. Then the fight returned to a distance battle wherein they attempted to overwhelm one another with power. Hmm I don’t know about that actually. If he was proficient, how did he use it? When? It doesn’t match any fighting style of his that we’ve been shown. I’m having more and more of a hard time accepting that novel as canonical now. No, that’s not it—it’s trying to merge the “he could totally use it well” perspective into what we’ve been shown. It’s fine if it’s a fluke but saying he’s got this now and it’s part of his bag of tricks contradicts the other evidence. Sorry, that just kind of went all over the place but trying to re-examine the Teach fight in light of the possibilities from the novel didn’t go very smoothly and I tend to type stream of consciousness. Alas, it is what it is and I can be taught. I just need to see new things. I mean if it’s supposed to be canon then I need to figure out the meaning behind the questionable areas. Also I need to read the actual books myself and stop relying on summaries. That would help immensely. For now I’m stuck with the limited information that I have. ^_^

    Oh I know another thing that I was going to address. The whole combat to get proficient in Haki thing. I’ve already mentioned Ace’s combat style and the main uses of Busoshoku Haki. Well those two don’t really go together. So how would he have actually gotten stronger in Haki via battles? Remember that he was still pretty confused about the whole thing even when he won. In theory he could’ve fought some people with Haki and/or been forced to battle some up close logias like that Vice Admiral. Anything could happen, after all. It’s just not what we’ve been led to believe. Or maybe that’s just my impression and I’m mistaken. ^_^
     
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  13. Yuuzume

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    First of all,I'm going to reply to your answer in the thread about religion and morality in One Piece here because I think it's a more fitting place for it,I hope that's alright with you.
    I do believe that there were some things that could have been said better but that doesn't mean that I either perceived anything you said as an attack or harbored any negative bias against you due to them.Mainly thanks to the interaction I've had with you during my time in the forum,I did trust and hope that the things said during this conversation weren't said with malice and also weren't meant as any sort of attack against anyone,which is something I believe you'd agree with.So no,you don't need to be concerned with your words being perceived as an attack or them being the cause of any sort of negative bias against you as far as I'm concerned.Though having said that,the way you put them certainly didn't help make your case either.While I'm thankful that you'd consider my opinion as one that's worthy of you going as far as having such a long conversation to convince me of it,I'd appreciate it if I was being convinced of it and not being informed about it and expected to simply accept it and the former would be more beneficial for both of us since it'd involve debate which would be more fruitful than following the latter way of going about it.

    As for the series itself,let me mention the source of this conversation to make my point.We started out with Teach as the main subject,then the subject changed to haki to prove that Teach should have had it since the beginning of the series (resulting in him being considered a powerhouse on par with Shanks even without devil fruit powers) and it then changed into the integrity of the facts of the series themselves,with the focus being haki,to prove that haki wasn't implemented correctly and that there was a mistake with it.Now,with this train of thought,the logical action would be to prove that there is a problem with haki,hence proving that any other established facts about it are equally untrustworthy which would result in thinking that Teach could use haki during his fight with Ace logical.That was what the conversation me,you,Jawa and Kia had at a point was about.But after that point,the process changed in trying to prove that haki is wrong because "there's definitely going to be a problem",which is the point I have trouble accepting and I'll explain why.

    Are there things that Oda could have connected and explained in a better way,making them more acceptable? That's a subjective question but as far as I am concerned,there certainly are things that I could have accepted more easily if they were portrayed in a different way.On the top of my head,Luffy's adamantite class plot armor.Take his fight with Crocodile for example.He fought him once as "water Luffy" and lost yet he won at the end of the arc by punching him with blood coated fists.Both situations made it possible for Luffy to bypass Crocodile's Logia physique and he didn't get any power ups in between fights and yet he lost in one case and won in the other.if it's feelings that decide the match,then would that mean that Luffy's feelings weren't as strong during the first of the two fights? I don't think so.Another,and more recent,example is his fight with Katakuri.He fought a person with a certain mastery of kenbunshoku and managed to reach the same level of mastery,if not a higher one,as a master like Katakuri during their fight.I get that competing against someone stronger can result in breakthroughs,but that fight was the equivalent of having a high school level basketball player face off against a professional basketball player and reaching the same level of skill during the match.The point I'm trying to make by saying all this is that what you refer to as 100% connectivity is Oda's way of connecting facts being extremely logical and thorough,making those connection highly believable,and what you refer to as mistakes is those connections being subpar to the previous ones.Could Oda have connected the facts during the WCI,Wano,Dressrosa,etc better than he did and make the connections more believable? Possibly.However,regardless of the quality of those connections or how believable they are,they are legit nonetheless.Even if it some explanations may seem a little farfetched,they're valid if they're within reason and work with the rules of the one Piece world set by Oda.And if those explanations are legit,then the respective connections become legit as well.To refer to the above examples,Luffy's mindset allows him to exert more power when the stakes are higher,which explains his burst of strength when the stakes with Crocodile were at their highest point and Luffy's training with Rayleigh created the foundation that allowed Luffy to take advantage of his high perception and talent to turn fighting experience against Katakuri into haki mastery.Even if some connections are barely believable,they're still valid if they can be logically explained.You say that the sheer amount of connections and facts that Oda has to consider is bound to result is the quality of the connections made lowering,hence lowering the quality of the series as a whole,and that it may even someday result in a mistake being made.I completely agree with that.However,I agree to the possibility of it happening,I don't treat it as a fact before it happens.Will the quality of the connections in the series lower in the future? Perhaps.Will a mistake appear due to the amount of information that Oda need to keep track of of? Maybe.However,until such a time comes,I don't think that treating the mere possibility as a fact is valid in proving your point.Until the already established facts about haki are proven untrustworthy by Oda making a mistake and contradicting them,I think it's logical to treat them as trustworthy and use them to explain situations in the series.

    Lastly,I'd like to refer to you saying that One Piece is a facade of complexion.You keep saying that we should be able to agree on all the major points and that any difference of opinion will only take place in the facade of complexion that is the result of over analyzing the simple parts of the series.The problem with that is that the difference of opinion seems to be in two of those simple parts,namely Rayleigh's explanation of haki and the training that Luffy underwent during the time skip.Assuming that one accepts those two facts,doesn't it make sense why Teach and Ace wouldn't be able to use haki? We haven't gotten any hints that Ace underwent any sort of haki training and it hasn't even been established that Teach even has the aptitude to unlock haki,not to mention that he hasn't been mentioned to have trained in it either.You base your opinion that Teach and Ace should have had haki on your opinion that haki wasn't properly implemented,which in turn stems from the fact that you believe that certain people should have been and should be able to use it.But in my eyes,the two aforementioned simple points cover that point and allow for a logical explanation as to why not all high level individuals are proficient haki users or even haki users in general and why big crews and Marine bases are equivalent to armies of haki users.So there are simple points that allow for a proper connection to be made and leave no holes in the haki content but you claim that there is or that there will be.Now,I don't see a problem with the current haki content and while I'm open to the possibility of one appearing through a simple point that would possibly contradict a previous one,I wouldn't go as far as to treat it as a fact before it happens,hence why I don't see any problem with thinking that neither Teach nor Ace were proficient in using haki.

    Now,to move on to Cracker.I don't think that creating one's element out of nothing is evidence of an awakened devil fruit user,according to the definition of awakening.Robin,Mr 3,Perona,Bartolomeo,Kin'emon,Kanjuro,Perospero,all of these characters are examples of characters with Paramecia abilities who can produce their element out of nothing and none of them have been hinted to be awakened devil fruit users.Awakening has been explained to be the ability to directly affect one's surroundings with their devil fruit ability.Now,as for Cracker,if he's like the aforementioned characters and can create biscuits out of nothing then that's believable.If he was like Pica and could simply manipulate his respective element in his surroundings,that would be fine too but that's unprobable as you have correctly pointed out that the location of the fight is not biscuit island and the ground is not constructed solely out of biscuit,if it is at all.But Cracker being an awakened devil fruit user,I don't see any evidence that supports that possibility.

    To make my point about haki,I'll use your analogy.Mastery of the basics of haki is not the same as knowing how to grip a ball,as a evidence by Luffy spending one and a half years to master said basics,and that's up to a point.If that were the case,that would mean that Oda had Luffy spend one and a half years to master the equivalent of knowing how to grip a ball properly,and let me remind you that Rayleigh commended on Luffy as being more talented than normal.So no,I don't think that unlocking haki is like eating a devil fruit,which involves a devil fruit user becoming aware of the powers of their fruit shortly after after eating it and being able to use them with a certain level of proficiency.Raising one's proficiency in a skill through application of said skill is like tempering,you need something to temper or you'd be striking on the air.Furthermore,application of a skill can have consequences on certain cases.For example,a person can become better at shooting a ball but the result would be that they would miss a lot of shots before they became proficient in it and that consequence inconsequential when compared to tempering fighting skills through combat.The result of failing to activate haki during a fight in One Piece would either be getting hit by an attack that could have been blocked if the defender was proficient in haki or an having an attack that could have dealt a certain level of damage be rendered ineffective.Both results would put the fighter's life on the line.You don't really need to treat it as a point since it's non canon.but we caught a glimpse of such a scenario when Luffy lost the fight against Byrnndi World in the One Piece film "3D2Y",and that was a scenario where Luffy had already received training from Rayleigh.So I don't think it was feasible for Ace to have become proficient in haki without training in the basics,because his haki level would be highly impractical in a fight and he'd have no reason to use it when he had he devil fruit abilities to get by.And it's not like his haki proficiency would magically increase by him fighting using his devil fruit abilities and not his haki.

    As for the straw hat crew,I find their power ups logical enough to accept them.Each member had their own assets and their experience from fighting allowed them to widen the scope of the uses those assets could have and increase their proficiency in using them.The ones with lower combat capacity even got occasional power ups in the forms of entirely new assets instead of an increase in the proficiency of their current ones in order for their power up to make more sense,namely Nami's clima-tact or Usopp's dials.And when the power up of the already existing assets reached a certain level,then came the two year time skip which allowed them to develop new assets (haki,new technology,mastery of devil fruits,new weapons,etc) and then keep on powering up from that point by tempering those assets through combat.
     
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  14. Marco Polo

    running with the wind
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    #274 Marco Polo, Mar 13, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2019
    I got alerted that I was tagged here but I see no tag, what’s going on

    PS @Yuuzume you’re not in trouble but PLEASE put a space after a full stop or a comma.* Your last post, whilst excellent in terms of content, was rather tricky to read
     
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  15. Jawahib

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    OMG I'VE WANTED TO SAY THIS FOR SO MANY MONTHS NOW.
    Sorry Yuuz,I'm happy to be patient as I need to be for our discussions,but as a kinda grammar nazi,this thing is really,really annoying for me to read :P
     
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  16. Kia

    Kia
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    You’re tagged in a quote in @Yuuzume ‘s post. @Seiryu tagged you in an earlier post.

    866CACE3-3A6B-4D19-9E80-0635DF4E395B.png
     
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  17. Yuuzume

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    I just saw that Kia described it already but yeah, Seiryu had quoted you in his comment previously and I quoted it as it was, leading to you being tagged here. Sorry for the confusion but nonetheless, thank you for the feedback on the comment. And thank you especially for the advice, the size of my comments calls for patience to read them by itself so if there's any way that I can lessen that, it's more than welcome. In regards to this particular piece of advice, I'll do my best to implement it in my comments and thanks again for bringing it to my attention. Though I have to say, we could have saved Jawa from a lot of emotional and physical pain if I had known about it sooner.

    Come on man, don't be reserved with me about these things. I call upon your title as professor and encourage you to be as open as you want about these things. But seriously, I should say this to you even more so than anyone else right now, thank you for your patience until now and my regards to you for it in the future. Well, said future will probably be when I finally catch up to the debate in your new thread. And don't worry, I'll include spaces.
     
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  18. Jawahib

    Both Exotic and Professor
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    You're actually a top-tier bloke, thanks for being so gracious about it. The professor thing is just a meme from... somewhere that you hopefully haven't read, so honestly don't ever think of me like that. Just some uni student who likes to talk about One Piece :P
    Really excited to see what you think about the thread!
     
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  19. Seiryu

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    Thank you for that. Thankfully both Kia and Jawa have been quite helpful so I'm very confident my investigative skills can narrow down to specific questions rather than getting lost in an endless loop. Not gonna tag them since my gut says this long discussion can probably end now if not soon (I get to test the accurate diagnosis of context discrepancies).
    This is a whole different topic/theme, but I'll run with it. In my bias, we are now talking about Luffy's extreme "willpower" (to quote Oda's wording with the Kaidou/kairouseki stuff). Based on content, it is much more than Luffy just being extremely hard-headed (although that is the majority of it and the most important factor).

    Yes, Luffy technically does not gain any physical "power-ups" between Croc II and Croc III. However, he does gain massive experience with fighting a logia. Familiarity/experience is universally beneficial. Moreover, the only thing that Luffy is a genius at is combat. We don't get to see it develop (since he is a complete dunce as a child), but this is always been the true driving factor to Luffy's success in toppling people he shouldn't be able to.

    I'll try not to get into the unnecessary details of combat match-ups, but essentially Luffy is able to recognize both his strengths/weaknesses and the opponents strengths/weaknesses and come up with strategies (on the fly) as he sees how the fight is playing out. We don't get all of Luffy's thoughts all of the time, but content implies mastery of this "skill". Most fighters do not have adaptability (they only further revert to their tendencies if an opponent it too strong or can successfully have variations to their rhythm of strikes/attacks to make it unpredictable). His fighting experience literally is constantly growing. As long as it is applied correctly, it is completely rational for Luffy to win because it is such a huge advantage (Oda has to limit how much opponents adapt to Luffy's adjustments because he would never win if they did).

    This is pretty much a constant theme, but just in case the direct question would be: do you not think experience and analysis of strengths/weaknesses is beneficial? Do you think Luffy is not at a master level of this skill?
    I'd 100% agree with the H.S. vs. pro analogy. WCI was supposed to be the "defeat" that made then entire crew not underestimate Kaidou. So I'm just going to completely skip this real B.S. because I 100% agree. Oda forced a happy ending when it was supposed to be the opposite.
    So we arrive at a very similar conclusion, and I think the above part on the Croc trilogy should make sense. But this is also directly reflecting my point in that the contextual details are all there. The pattern of "willpower" leading to overcoming someone stronger than him is constant. However, missing the one skill Luffy has at a mastered level (other than his gluttony which I wouldn't call a skill since his stomach expands greater than any other person in the world) completely changes the perspective/context of analyzing the fight.

    I probably should drop it, but these comments imply the acknowledgement of the "real B.S." I've been harping on. I'm willing to bet that excluding the relatively few panels of "real B.S." (relative to 99.99% of all panels and thus the rounding up to 100% connectivity), all of Dressrosa and even a majority of Wano Kuni and WCI (much smaller for WCI because of the level of changes => Oda has admitted himself he's made changes since ya don't follow the additional stuff) still match up given the right perspective/context/additional info. So I'm gonna pose the same question that I did to the others: if you imagine the worst case scenario of Big Mom's amnesia (and it happens in the manga), do you think a significant portion of the series goes to crap? Two years ago, I would have bet my entire life savings that this was physically impossible for Oda to deviate from his writing style to the point of irrationality spreading into the main plot. It started minuscule (Frog-Carrot B.S.), but it definitely snowballed and freakin' avalanched.
    Gonna have to focus on these parts a bit. Other than "real B.S." (and I'm sure you know exactly what parts I'm referring too, you just have a different term for it), what are some other parts of content being "barely believable"? I'm gonna reference the Jawa discussion in that something with "low believability" is literally just a "minuscule" detail (having Oda draw a physical band-aid on Luffy after activating any of his Gears). I'd be willing to bet that given the right context, the "barely believable" points are the same way. If the above part on Croc doesn't do it, we can start there.

    Second major part: that is not what I'm saying. The quality is not correlated to volume. The simplicity is. I'm saying that if you want to attempt to avoid the facade of complexity, it is physically impossible for one human mind to keep track of so many intertwined details. The believability will drop without maximized connectivity (I'm going to round it up because it is statistically insignificant and it exceeds this by a lot anyway).

    Oda literally hospitalized himself with a life-threatening condition (it was not to the severity of being a significant threat to his life based on the comments we got at and after the hospitalization) trying to do all of the work himself. A major part of this "work" is keeping track all of the details and "connectivity" of every arc as well as the connections between arcs. Based on additional info, we know Oda used to keep the details of the last parts of the series a secret from all editors/WSJ execs/everyone.

    Even if we give Oda manga-levels of health from the various life-style changes made, do you think it's humanly possible for one person to keep track of 22 years of abstract/crazy ideas (and somehow still miraculously keeping it believable/connected) alone? My point on the facade of complexity is that it is humanly impossible to keep track of all of the critical details (the original 5 year plan) if they are not simplified/straightforward. It truly is as simple as decreased believability if irrationality is introduced (the real B.S.). The simple solution is always the most likely (at the lowest level of accuracy it is going to be on the right track). Even if you want to ignore all of this, it will continue to play out this way (or believability drops and the series goes to crap). Thankfully either Oda or someone advising Oda finally seems to have reached him on the loss of believability with B.S. There is going to be some residual B.S. as a result of the already introduced B.S., but we'll just have to see how good of a cover-up Oda does.
    Stopped reading too early. Can skip the above. I'd be willing to bet my writing style is a big part of this "fact" assumption. I'm 100% open to alternative opinions. However, most people will miss one if not multiple breadcrumbs. If there is not a conscious attempt to connect every dot, key details will be missed. I am going to miss things too, and that's the primary factor for me still being here. I'm willing to bet that the combination of my experience and increasing level of analysis (I only figured out the true essence of Oda's writing style as a result of these long discussions recently) will result in a very low percentage of missing things. It is a "prove me wrong" mindset. However, the content is truly that simple which is why I am blatant that "time will play itself out" and reflect what I'm saying (I've already seen it for 14ish years now although the level of microanalysis jumped around 9ish years ago).

    Whether we like it or not, Oda has very few rational options for the remainder of the series. We no longer have completely open-ended scenarios. Forums are going to die off unless the fans can appreciate the chapter to chapter development: the small plot progressions/building and the character development for new people would be the main parts to me.
    I would completely disagree on the "two parts". It is the entire series itself (the 99.99% of panels that were thoroughly planned out before publishing). Rayleigh's training is the "cover-up" for the B.S. of previous haki introduction (primarily the Summit War), but I'll go along since even the rationale behind the cover-up is still highly connected (statistically insignificant B.S. in the cover-up and thus the rational and "true" introduction for haki that the rest of the series will follow).
    So we're back at the Ace/Blackbeard. I think I'm better at handling this after discussions with Jawa. Just because we don't see it or have direct implications to it occurring, why does that matter? Oda says they have it, so they have it. Contextually, both of them are among dozens if not hundreds of people that can use it. To maintain their role as the most powerful crew (in order to keep peace in their massive territory), haki training has to be a part of the crew. My bias is that Blackbeard probably had it from a much younger age, but contextually, even if I change my bias, he has many chances to see/overhear the training to learn it on his own. The breadcrumbs are all there. Oda tells fans (in his usual indirect and politically correct manner) to "figure it out yourself(ves)" because it is all there. Microanalyzers like us will need additional info to have a satisfactory level of beliveability, but because the rationale and effort to have 100% connectivity is there, the answer is truly there already. Even if Oda didn't plan out the doctor-level of physiology for Gears, because he/his team did enough research to have a graduate level comprehension, the truly insignificant levels of details still match up naturally.

    Even the minor references/researched points appear to fit perfectly: whatever dessert Linlin likes in her flashback comes to mind. Everything about it seemed completely accurate per the 2 people of that culture that responded to the chapter discussion. Thorough research and being driven by believability is why things still fit even without a direct reference. Because the picture is so complete, other parts fill in the gaps even if Oda doesn't show Ace/Blackbeard getting haki training. Per the "combat capabilities" breakdown, we agree that haki is the primary X-factor, thus all content implies it is essential for all relevant powerhouses. I'm not really paying attention, but the databooks are backing this up (the exception is that Dorry/Broggy don't have any haki, so now we have potential disconnect on why the world fears giants since even "weaklings" from the early parts of the Grand Line have the combat capabilities to take down a giant => thus Pac-man and I believe that the "new age" of giants have to have either haki or the speed necessary to keep up).

    Reading through the rest of it...it's what Oda says is reality. Yes, Oda is unique that we have a variety of things that he wants us to consider "true canon" (SBS, databooks, specials, movie characters, etc.). So the appropriate question is: if we settle the context of haki training being a necessity to survive in the New World, does the disconnect on the Ace/Blackbeard usage of haki go away?
    Robin is definitely unique (which is why she is limited by sight => even when she does the sprouting of eyes in Skypeia, even the brainiac Robin cannot handle the visual stimuli overload). First part of this is we need limitations for believability. Second part is that everyone else is limited by direct contact with their body. I'm not sure what you think the limiting factor is to element creation (stamina/energy per my bias and this almost has to come up so let me know if you think there is no limit or it's something else), but content shows that paramecia stop once it is disconnected from their body.

    Woah, Perona isn't an "elemental" fruit. So now it's going strait to the limiting factor for her. In theory, yes she could create infinite/1 galaxy-sized, massive ghost. But that's just too over-powering. Rationally, she and all other fruit users are limited by stamina. Same goes for Bart. He's another abstract fruit ability. For the potentially over-powered abilities, Oda adds additional limitations. For Bart, he has a surface area limit. If he doesn't have a stamina limitation (shown as he continues to use his ability once the main fighting starts), it would be too OP for him to just constantly use a max sized wall to crush people (part of the reasoning to limit him to only 1 barrier since 2 immediately makes him too OP). This applies to Kanurou too.

    Kinemon is a useless power for battle, but what the hell. The rational "limiting factor" is the immediate disconnect to the devil once the clothing is removed. Kinemon should have a limit to how many clothing he can create, but it might be enough for the entire world since it isn't combat related.

    Perospero is pure B.S. for some parts. I was going to completely ignore the B.S. seaslug (contradicting both the ability to grant "life" without Vegapunk level science as well as the lack of negation once it is submerged, with visuals implying >50%, in the ocean). If we ignore the absolute, multi-levels of B.S., his other usages are normal where non-awakening candy is created by contact with his body. The staircase comes to mind, and him being a major fighter supports the presence of an awakening (context also implies him wanting to show off to the VIP that he can create art and details even without his direct element creation => greater skill because higher levels of concentration are required to tie in the recent kairouseki discussion).
    So I'm not even going to reference any of this before we establish this: do you have a subclassification within the paramecia group? Paramecia are literally "everything else" that doesn't fit in zoan/logia. If we don't establish that there are "elemental" paramecia that operate extremely similarly to logia and then everything else that is abstract/crazy/creative/unique ideas, then it's 100% gonna go in circles and at least I'm getting better at recognizing that before going down that road.
    No no no...I'm talking about that both require training for proficiency. Even Sabo has moments of his fire going berserk/uncontrolled. It is much easier to train a fruit ability because the devil provides the "magic" (vs. the magic having to be created by "weaving haki energy" first before attempting the skill). Yes, we both agree they are on different levels. I made the mistake of going off on a tangent rather than correctly investigating the perspective/context difference. My gut says this all ties to the Ace/Blackbeard related biases, so it's pointless to go in circles unless I read something that hints at the different context source).
    The ball/shot analogy is exactly what I'm thinking, and I'm glad I just trusted my gut since this does directly go back to Ace/Blackbeard.
    Perfect. With the right context, we should be agreeing on a massive percentage of content. No it is not truly 100%, but it's more than close enough that I'm going to just round it up (as a scientist, statistically significant difference is the guideline).
     
  20. Yuuzume

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    Thank you very much for the compliment man, and you're quite welcome of course. If anything, I'm a fan of and appreciate both honesty and straightforwardness so I'm more than glad to see those qualities combined with helpful advice. I can't say that I've read whatever piece of text that meme was inspired from, though it'd probably make for an interesting read. Don't worry about the title, I just said it a tad jokingly, I don't view you as formally as that. However, you still have my respect man. Your knowledge, persuasiveness and wit are one thing but the flow of the logic in your comments makes them structured in a way that's quite enjoyable to read. I plan on catching up to the conversation in your thread quite soon but I'll have to multi task as I'm interested in Maruko's new debate thread as well. Suggesting a topic like that in here is like throwing chum in a shark tank, we can't not bite. On a side note, I'd like an opinion on a specific topic in this conversation as it's similar and relevant to your thread and it can possibly and hopefully help with putting this conversation to bed soon. General feedback is more than welcome too but I'll tag you in the relevant place for convenience's sake. Maruko ( @Marco Polo ) and Kia ( @Kia ) too if it's alright with them.

    ---

    I'd like to say something first before I start replying to your answer. This is a very late point in the conversation to be mentioning this but I get the impression that we're not on the same page as far as "connectivity" goes. It seems to me like the difference between "connectivity" and "believability" has been causing some confusion from the start. This is more relevant to Jawa's thread, to which I plan on catching up on soon, but since "connectivity" is relevant here too, I'll go in a little more detail in the relevant point.

    Well, the point of me introducing this point was merely to showcase that there are several points throughout the series that may qualify as "barely believable" to some. The reason why it's still believable is precisely due to the experience that Luffy gains through his fights, like you say yourself. I do agree with that point and I've mentioned the importance of a fighter's experience and their ability to effectively use their abilities during this conversation myself. However, even if the result of that fight is technically acceptable for that reason, the difference in power between the two still makes it questionable up to a point. Considering Luffy's abilities at the time, I wouldn't call the power up that Luffy got between the Croco fights enough of a boost to bridge the gap between the two fighters. But if Crocodile's fight isn't enough of an example, let me refer to Luffy's fight with Enel. Even of his speed was reduced and was not comparable to what a user of the "lightning" fruit should have been capable of, we still see him moving at an incredible speed that could have later easily rivaled soru. Putting that speed together with his mantra and heated up trident makes the result of his fight with Luffy even more questionable than Crocodile's one. Still, that fight along with other similar ones and other points can still be explained regardless of questionable it may be, hence why it doesn't damage the connectivity of the series. Katakuri's fight and other such points of Dressrosa, WCI or Wano are similar. They may be questionable but they're not without a logical explanation, hence why they don't damage the connectivity of the series either. Now, whether or not the events of Dressrosa, WCI and Wano are simply more questionable than previous ones were, that is a possibility. However, regardless of that, they can still be explained and thus don't damage the connectivity of the series either.

    It's not that I wasn't taking Luffy's adaptability and sponge like learning prowess into account but that there should be a limit to it if it's going to be within the limits of reason, even inside of the One Piece world. Cases like Crocodile seem to pressing against that limit pretty strongly and cases like Enel may even possibly be considered as going beyond it.

    @Jawahib @Marco Polo @Kia I'll answer your question about Big Mom at the second half of this part, after I talk about the connectivity, if that's alright with you. This is the point where I think there's been some confusion since the start. Personally, I consider connectivity to be the factual connection between points in a logical manner. However, there can be points that can be considered connected to the rest but be questionable and barely believable. It's when the believability falls under a certain point and any logical explanation is lost that the connectivity starts to suffer. The difference between the two is the difference between saying "this fact was not connected to the rest of the series properly and it could have been done better" and "this fact is not connected to the rest so there's no need to trust it or take it into account". It's the difference between feeling a little disappointed and the series beginning to crack. And now let's get to the subject at hand. You've been suggesting that the percentage of the series' connectivity is one hundred per cent ( minus haki, Dressrosa, WCI, Wano ). Now, to show you that haki and the events of Dressrosa, WCI and Wano are part of that connectivity percentage, I've been giving one example after another ( powerful non-haki users, fight results, the awakening,etc ) and your answers to them have been explanations like the one about Crocodile. Those explanations, though they can be logically acceptable, are still questionable. In other words, you've been focusing on the "connectivity" of the series when you gave explanations about any event prior to Dressrosa. And yet when we talk about any event past the Dressrosa arc, you seem to be switching "connectivity" fro "believability" and focusing on that. I've given you logical, but not easily believable, explanations exactly like you did for Crocodile, for the awakening and any other questionable point that I've mentioned so far. And despite the situations being the same, you consider all facts prior to Dressrosa perfectly connected and any facts after Dressrosa completely irrational. When we're talking about connectivity, we can't judge based on connectivity up until Dressrosa and then change standards and switch connectivity for believability for any fact after Dressrosa. It's only fair that we judge all facts based on the same standards. Now, if we were talking about how believable the facts after Dressrosa are, or any fact in the series really, there would be several that I could mention, as I have done so already. However, the more fitting place for that is Jawa's thread and right now we're talking about "connectivity", so let's judge based on connectivity. Therefore, if you want to convince me that the facts after Dressrosa are not credible, then please prove that they're not connected and not that they're questionable. As for your question about Big Mom, there are indeed scenarios that would make the believability fall so much that the logical connection of events would be compromised and that would indeed damage the connectivity and the series would start to crack. However, is there a point in talking about possible scenarios of what will happen with Big Mom in particular? There are so many points in the series that a crack could appear anywhere if Oda is not careful. Haki, devil fruits, fight results, characters acting opposite to what their personality suggests,etc. Let's even go close to the end and assume that Oda manages to keep the series together until the endpoint. At that point, depending on what the One Piece turns out to be, it would have a huge impact on the series and the nature of that impact is still unknown. The possibility of a crack has existed since the beginning and it's present around many points, I don't see why the Big Mom one would be an exception.

    You do realize that these "minuscule details" are what you've been using yourself to explain all the questionable points I've mentioned throughout the conversation and turn them into "barely acceptable", right? You can't eat a piece of the pie and also keep the whole man. Now, as far as I'm concerned, those details are there regardless of how we treat them and whether or not they make or break the believability and connectivity of the series but if you want to disregard the effect they have on the facts of the series, then you can't also acknowledge them occasionally only to make your point. To answer your question, one such point is Luffy's fight with Enel, which I've already mentioned.

    If anything, the connectivity would drop if the believability dropped below a certain level. Since the two concepts are connected, it's proper to say both that the facts of the series are connected because they're believable and that they're believable because they're connected. But it's the believability that comes first as a fact can only be considered connected to the rest if the way it's introduced is logical and thus believable enough. Though, regardless of which comes first, believability does affect the connectivity if it drops too much. Therefore, since more quantity means more details and details affect believability, quantity can also affect the connectivity and thus the quality. However, that is if it drops below a certain level and I wouldn't say that that has happened with haki, Dressrosa, WCI and Wano.

    The confusion between believability and connectivity may be partly to blame for this as well. If we talking about believability, then I'd agree that there are parts after Dressrosa, like Luffy's fight with Katakuri, that are of low believability. But we're talking about connectivity and the facts you've been mentioning after the Dressrosa arc point at low believability at best, not absence of connectivity. There have been points of low believability even before Dressrosa but absence of connectivity is different.

    Rayleigh's introduction of haki explains why most people that "should" have haki, don't. And most of those people were introduced after the time skip, so it looks more like a proper explanation to set a base than a cover up to me. But in any case, the fact that there are certain people that should have had haki is only a point of low believability and Rayleigh's explanation still connects the facts.

    Coby had kenbunshoku haki as well when he unlocked it as well but could he control it at will before training in using it? Luffy had haoshoku haki when he unlocked it in his "fight" against Motobaro ( Duval's...bull? ) but could he control it at will before training in using it? Oda tells us that Ace "had" haki, not that he could use it at will. As for Teach, Oda didn't even tell us that he had it at the time of his fight with Ace. So, since we have no indication that they could use it at will, I don't see anything wrong with them not been shown using it. As for whether or not Teach is a haki user after the time skip, it doesn't really matter. If a blond person dyes their hair black, it doesn't mean that their hair was black ever since they were born. So even if Teach is shown to be a haki user now, that's not reason to think that he was one during his fight with Ace. The facts of the series are being explained and connected to the rest in the process of proving their connectivity, not their believability. Some explanation can be slightly questionable but still offer said connectivity. And that connectivity is why it can be inferred that haki training is not a necessity of surviving in the New World. If that had been the case, wouldn't Rayleigh have said that every person in the New World is a haki user? Wouldn't every person we've seen in the New World have been a haki user? For whatever reason, Oda put a limitation on haki and it's break the connectivity if we disregard that for no reason.

    Firstly, as far as Perospero is concerned, I assume that the sea slug is similar to Magellan's hydras and is merely him manipulating the candy and simply imitating the form of a living organism. As for not being negated underwater, the case was the same for Aokiji's ice, Kizaru's light attack and Luffy was also able to stretch underwater and stay stretched, and that happened as early as the East Blue arc. As for putting a limitation, I don't object but is it even necessary? I only mentioned them to point out that they can do the same thing as Cracker and it hasn't been suggested that they're awakened devil fruit users, hence why I don't see a reason to think that Cracker is one. In any case, yeah, there have been shown to be limitations for the use of a Paramecia user's abilities. I suppose that there are some special cases like Bartolomeo who have special limitations based on their fruit but if we associate those limitations with the user's stamina and assume that the user's capacity for using their ability increases along with their stamina, then we can put them all in the same category and say that the common limiting factor is the user's stamina. But as I said, I only mentioned these characters to prove my point about Cracker.

    There's not really a need to do so as there's not really a need to consider the whole group of character to make a point. I mentioned them cause they were similar, but Robin and Bartolomeo are enough to compare to Cracker and I'd say that they're under the same category as him. Both of their powers, especially Bartolomeo's I'd say, are similar to Crackers and neither Robin or Bartolomeo have been suggested to be awakened users. Therefore, like I've been saying, I don't see why Cracker's ability to make biscuit soldiers makes him an awakened user.

    If you agree with these, then why is Ace and Teach not being able to use haki during their fight not an acceptable explanation? Take Coby as an example. Imagine him training his kenbunshoku in life or death fights without proper training first. He'd be like how he was at marinefold when he first heard all those voices in his head, not knowing left from right, and it wouldn't take long before he was cut down.
     
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