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The Truth Behind Devil Fruits and SMILEs and The Reason Why Blackbeard Can Use Two Abilities.

Discussion in 'One Piece Theories' started by Yuuzume, Mar 14, 2018.

  1. Yuuzume

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    The reason I'm having trouble believing it is cause said implication seems like a different person from the one I've seen so far.The only trait that may be worth mentioning is Teach's strength which he showcased against Ace and WB.But we can safely attribute the fact that he even landed them on the darkness fruit's gravitational pull abilities.So it's hard to think that Teach could even land a hit on Shanks while being ability-less,much less wound him.

    His cunningness and strategic ingenuity are certainly the qualities that should be mentioned when talking about Teach.The problem with him is that he's a coward who tried to look like a strong person by getting raw power.That skin would probably tear off really quickly under pressure.

    Thanks for taking the time to read this and give your opinion on it man,I appreciate it.
     
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  2. Seiryu

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    I take the Ace vs. Blackbeard fight with a grain of salt. It should be at a much higher level for sure. They both have haki (and probably both kenbunshoku/haoshoku), but the anime does nothing to reflect this. Just like any shounen manga fight, Blackbeard is probably fighting down to the level of his opponent. They are shown to be fighting at the level of top people at the time, but they are both at a completely different level (Blackbeard was already in a different tier).

    I definitely agree on the "weakness" of Blackbeard in the second part, but my interpretation is that he is just lazy and wants to avoid potential obstacles to his plan (vs. Luffy always taking any obstacle head on). It is probably safe to assume Blackbeard only makes his move once the ability hunt and execution of the plan is complete, so this weakness does not come into play.
     
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  3. Kia

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    So I’m confused on two points please.

    1.Where/how does it ever show BB having Haki?

    In your earlier post you said Shanks was being carefree and Blackbeard landed a Haki attack on him because he was strong enough to do so and Shanks wasn’t expecting a serious fight.
    upload_2018-9-13_20-33-18.jpeg
    But here he says he wasn’t being careless which is a synonym (the top one https://www.powerthesaurus.org/carefree) for carefree. I’m sure you read the original and know what it really said.

    2. Are you suggesting that the hiding in the shadow of Whitebeard means hiding his true power/strength? That he basically did like women have had to do for years to stroke men’s egos? Played down their abilities in order to make themselves seem less than what they are. Because, as I’ve stated previously, I always took him literally speaking of a past sneak attack to figuratively warn of future plans to try and make a power play.
     
  4. Seiryu

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    Context 100% implies it, even at the time of the fight with Ace. To would Shanks, Blackbeard HAS to have very strong offensive busoushoku. Shanks' defensive busoushoku should be more than enough to ward off blades from most people in the world.

    Shanks' character as a whole is completely carefree (which rubbed off on Luffy/why they liked each other). By definition, he could not have been 100% on guard because he did not expect Blackbeard to be on his level. The only case of not having this aspect of human nature is Miyamoto Musashi and him never taking a bath later in life. Just like pretty much all manga fights, Shanks is fighting down to Blackbeard's level, but when Blackbeard starts fighting at a Yonkou level, he is able to land the wound.

    As for the last part, no. His true strength is his final form in 4-5 years. I would say that his planning is his most underrated character strength. The biggest thing is that Blackbeard has steadily built up as the ultimate baddie. Oda is going to have him be the ultimate nemesis/anti-Luffy, so he's naturally got lots of strengths (the above parts on being physically at a Yonkou level even without the Yami abilities). We have a very extensive outline for how little airtime he has gotten, but the key details are completely wide open with Oda purposefully leaving two main options open (keeping the abilities for himself, or being able to transfer them to others).
     
  5. Kia

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    Hence the contention that he was otherwise engaged in fighting Whitebeard and didn’t notice him. If he didn’t notice him, he couldn’t/wouldn’t have guarded against the wound.
    No defensive Haki means no offensive needed. Only Vergo haki’s His whole body when fighting.

    I meant true strength at that time not pentultimate of the series. As in he wasn’t showing all his cards. Which you’ve basically affirmed in your answer to the previous, if I understand correctly by saying he wasn’t expected to be on the same level as Shanks in the scenario you painted.

    Oh he’s a cunning bastard, no doubt, almost Machiavellian. I’m simply trying to ascertain the basis for the other parts to clarify my understanding as my interpretation is different.
     
  6. Yuuzume

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    There are three types of abilities in the One Piece world when one considers the fighting prowess of a character: Haki,Devil fruit abilities and skills (Either tribal skills lke the minks or simple fighting skills like swordsmanship).Right now we're talking about the scenario of a fruitless Teach,so let's take out the raw power of his devil fruits out of the equation.Let's consider any skills that he has shown to have...just punches after he pulled his opponent in using the power of his devil fruit.He was shown to have used a weapon similar to Wolverine's claws but there hasn't been an indication that he can use it efficiently.One might say that him wounding Shanks with it is an indication that he can use it properly,but we still don't know the circumstances of how Shank's received his wound.Even if I was overly generous of my evauation of Teach's skill in using that weapon,I would say he was barely decent at it,justified that he was one of WB's crew and a new world pirate with certain years of experience under his belt.As far as skill goes,Shanks is a powerhouse that used to duel with Hawkeye as casually as normal people in the One Piece world go to have lunch.And even after all those duels with Hawk Eye,the greatest swordsman in the One Piece world,Shanks has not been wounded deep enough for him to be scarred (as far as we've seen).And yet he received such a wound from Teach,and that was even before he ate any devil fruit.If we accept that Teach was simply strong enough to wound Shanks so badly at that stage,that would mean that he's a stronger fighter than Hawk Eye,something which I frankly don't think is plausible for the most part.So Shank's scar must have involved several other factors that are irrelevant to Teach's fighting ability.

    Now let's consider the last ability,haki.First there is Busoshoku,I haven't seen an indication that Teach's busoshoku is overly strong but I agree that he can use it to an extend.Then we have Haoshoku,I don't like the idea of Teach possesing Haoshoku but it actually wouldn't surprise me.Still,having haoshoku would only help him avoid having to fight peopel with quite weaker haki than himself,not help him fight against opponents who are close to him as far as haki levels go.And finally we have Kenbunshoku,a type of haki that Teach has shown no indication of having.I won't give you an example from his fight with Ace because haki hadn't really been introduced clearly by that point (though we had seen the use of Mantra on Skypeia,which is Kenbunshoku).Instead,let me give you examples from his fights during and after the Impel Down arc,which is after Sandersonia and Marigold had been shown to use haki at Amazon Lily and Reyleigh and Sentonmaru had been shown to use haki at Sabaody.

    1) Fight with Luffy:
    p_00005.jpg
    p_00006.jpg

    2) "Fight" with Magellan:
    p_00018.jpg
    p_00019.jpg

    3) Fight with Whitebeard:
    p_00008.jpg

    4) Fight with Sengoku:
    p_000062.jpg

    Not to be harsh on him,but what I would have considered as a sigh of Kenbunshoku,or at least stronger Busoshoku,is him not falling on the floor after one attack from all of those opponents.

    In the end,for me,if you take the devil fruit abilities away from Teach,you're left with a New World pirat with average skill,barely decent haki,and above average strength.

    His plan to avoid obstacles who are skilled at using their power is getting even more raw power himself.But no matter how many obstacles he avoids,there should still be the ones he can't avoid,the ones who have enormous raw power and know how to use it,one such example being Shanks.


    Pica has been shown to be able to coat himself completely in busoshoku haki as well.Though I agree with you on the fact that factors which indicate unfair play were involved in Teach's fight with Shanks.Shank's statement makes it seem like it was a normal fight by he could also mean that Teach was simply cunning enough to catch him by surprise despite him having his guard up.
     
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  7. Seiryu

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    I'm confused on where Whitebeard has to do with the Shans/Blackbeard clash. Ace is the perfect example that people are given freedom to just do their own thing since the name of Whitebeard itself was protection from the Government/Marines. Based on the conversation, Blackbeard decided to test his capabilities against Shanks (probably a chance encounter). The rest of the Red Hair crew wasn't there as well since they wouldn't let Blackbeard escape freely (they would let the fight go on though).
    This ultimately comes down to the aspects previously discussed. Teach is being implied to be at a Yonkou level physically from way back then (he and others have stated he was purposefully hiding anything close to his real power simply for the chance to get the Yami Yami no Mi). Fighters at this level are not affected by the benefits of most fruit abilities (this trend is starting to be bumped by powerhouse abilities being introduced recently. However, Oda still has demonstrated endurance based limitations to logia/awakenings, so there are still limitations to the overpowered abilities). Shanks himself is the perfect example of how haki mastery negates any and all benefits from almost all fruit abilities.

    Shanks' pride is why he has the comment on taking the fight seriously. However, it is probably safe to assume the wound was delivered prior to Shanks warming up and being at 100% exertion. Again, his personality further extends the time it would take to get series. That time alone is more than enough to land the strike (we are at the DBZ stage of the series where everything is just illogically past what is humanly possible). Once Blackbeard lands the strike, he has his confirmation that he has the physical capabilities (and haki, but they are tied by direct correlation). Shanks is probably ready to go all out at this point, but Blackbeard reverts to his displayed personality of avoiding conflict.

    It actually makes sense from a strategic standpoint. For how grand his plan is, it is assuming he has Yonkou level fighting capabilities. Even with the best fruit ability, he still needs to be in the elite of the elite tier to even have a chance of succeeding. Shanks is the only Yonkou with minimal connections and most likely to be alone in an open area at times. So not only does it fit the plot's completion, in typical Oda fashion, the character personality and their development perfectly matches as well.

    As for the fight examples, I think Oda is showing us key details on the details of Blackbeard's "strange body". He talks about it himself during the Ace fight, but he has to tank ALL damage. Whether it is part of his unique body or a new benefit from the Yami abilities, he essentially immediately heals in all cases (which is my bias of how the entire crew escaped Magellan's poisoning). Oda had to keep a loophole for Blackbeard's defeat, and this is that loophole. Probably similar to Kaidou/Jack, one massive combination has to be stringed together to KO them. Their durability makes them invincible otherwise (Jack at a much lower level and Blackbeard somewhere inbetween probably). The Blackbeard fight will be more exciting because the Yami abilities make it exponentially harder to create that opening (plus Luffy won't have the benefit of help in that fight).

    Essentially it is plot armor, but fighters will fight down to their opponents level for the sake of the story progressing. I would argue that is the case for all of the referenced instances. Blackbeard should be able to 1 hit KO all of them (yes even the weakened Whitebeard), but that completely throws off the plot. I've seen Blackbeard an overlooked character for years. Oda is just properly distracting from the truth. He was much more subtle with his deception based writings back then, and these are all examples. Blackbeard is going to be the biggest rival (and potentially even the final fight after overthrowing the Government, but I would bet against this). Oda's masterfully kept our interest in other characters despite slowly building Blackbeard up over 15ish years.

    Edit: literary perfection. I'm surprised I'm the only one to describe Oda's story development. Even with people like us, the truth is undeniable and has been foreshadowed multiple times in the past.
     
  8. Yuuzume

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    Assuming that Shanks needs a bit of time to warm up and come to take a fight seriously,that must have been the case for every fight he's been in since it's part of his personality,including his fights with Hawk Eye.And yet,despite that,Hawk Eye hasn't managed to wound Shanks as badly as Teach has.That still hints that Teach was stronger,or at lest as strong as,than Hawk Eye,the world's greatest swordsman.Compared to characters like Shanks,who have been shown to be strong since the beginning,Teach has been introduced as a character that grows alongside Luffy for the reason you mentioned,to be a near-final opponent for him (there's still the WG for the final ones).But according to what you're suggesting,Teach was one step away from being a Yonko level pirate since even before he ate the darkness fruit.And then that person ate what he thinks of as the strongest devil fruit (Darkness fruit) and what the world thinks of as the strongest devil fruit (Quake fruit) turning himself into what would effectively be a combination of a Shanks level fighter,Whitebeard without health issues and the darkness fruit.And yet he run away from Shanks at Marinefold.I suppose one could say it was because of the Marines' presenc there or because his crew wasn't up to par with Shank's.Then why did he run away from Akainu when he was planning to exchange Jewelry Bonney with a warship.He should have been enough of a monster to beat Akainu to a pulp considering his assumed strength.So for the present,I haven't really seen a hint that suggests Teach is as strong as Shanks as far as skill and haki goes.The darkness fruit and Quake fruit are enough to put him in a position that's almost equal as the other Yonko.Now,I understand that you believe that Oda has been building up Teach over a long time span,but that only reinforces my belief that Teach is weak (if you exclude his devil fruits) right now.Instead of him been built up in one go into a monster,it would be better to follow a pace where Teach is just as strong as the other Yonko and then begins getting stronger as Luffy begins taking the other Yonko down and getting stronger himself.I won't say anything about Oda since I'd rather not use something outside of the story to make my point,this is the pace who I believe would be more proper for a manga that has spare time to develop a rival properly and the pace I believe the story is currently progressing in.However,my opinion of Teach remains the same,which is that even the potential future power ups will only include further raw power and that he will eventually hit a wall due to him depending on it too much.
     
  9. Kia

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    Sorry if I was unclear. I explained this in an earlier post. I do see the view that you’re taking and how it’s plausible. My contention and interpretation of Shanks’ statement (regarding Blackbeard hiding in Whitebeard’s shadow) that I had shown in that picture was that it was a literal reference to the his previous actions. As in Shanks and Whitebeard had been fighting, Blackbeard, in his cunning way, hid himself until just the right moment, then struck and wounded Shanks. So Shanks made reference to that as a metaphor for his future actions. That’s how I always read it. Hopefully that clears it up.

    It’s not to say that your interpretation is wrong but simply explaining mine.
     
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  10. Seiryu

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    As a martial artist, there is still a difference when you spar with someone. It can get heated with strong personalities, but in most cases, true 100% exertion is never achieved simply for safety purposes. This leeway should theoretically get exaggerated with the manga-level of fighting. They sparred with each other to maintain their skills. If they truly were fighting at max capacities, there would have been injuries. Aokiji loosing his leg over a split second of hesitancy/fatigue is probably the perfect example. The openings are so small at the apex. From a physiological perspective as well, there has to be a warm-up/build up as well so Oda milking the action does fit from a science standpoint as well (if not strategically as well).
    I would point out Sabo's training. The previous comments implies an immediate mastery of both the Yami Yami and Gura Gura abilities. I would assume Oda is building in additional "mastery" time for the Yami Yami abilities. This probably goes hand in hand with the ability hunt. Because he has not mastered either ability, this alone will create huge openings for any of the Red Hair crew to pounce on. He has every reason to flee at this point. In theory, he could completely revert to his non-ability fighting style but Oda has protected against this with his overly cautious/risk aversion personality. This part of his personality guarantees he will not make his move until the ability hunt (or whatever aspect is the last part of the master plan) is completed.

    The above applies to Akainu as well. In theory, the entire crew is more than enough to tackle Akainu (almost any two of them alone should be enough). Again, Oda is purposefully implying weakness when there is none. A big part of this is the plot. Having key characters defeated by someone other than Luffy kills excitement. Rationally, it should happen since there is constant turmoil and how prideful the apex characters are.

    I do not disagree with any part of your perspective, from my bias, Oda is just executing his plan perfectly. His perfect writing makes it so that we have way too many details for real surprises. We can rationally deduce all of the remaining major arcs. For the past 3-5ish years, Oda has had to depend solely on misdirection for his OMFG?!?! moments. The real climax against Kaidou, Luffy's true bloodline, and Blackbeard's true nemesis potential are all great examples. The "breadcrumbs" are all laid out and seen by everyone. Being able to fully connect all of them is the hardest part. Even for myself, it was discussions like this over the past 13ish years now that put some of the smaller puzzle pieces together. With so much detail, other people's perspectives are necessary.
    Ah I got ya now. I would respectfully disagree since this situation makes it almost impossible for Whitebeard to not know about the scar. With the level of kenbunshoku for both Whitebeard (who's in his prime at the time of the scar) and Shanks, they know the presence of the other with their eyes closed (they even know their status/emotions based on the examples of Rayleigh and Fujitora). Whitebeard had to be in a completely different area/part of the world when the Shanks vs. Blackbeard clash happened. Chances are, the rest of the Red Hair crew wasn't around as well since they should have similar kenbunshoku capabilties.
     
  11. Kia

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    Again, I read it differently but I haven’t read the Japanese. I don’t see where it says Whitebeard didn’t know about the origin of the scar before. I saw it as a reference to or reminder of a past event, not a revelation of new information. As I’ve stated before in other threads, these things are open to interpretation and that’s why such discussions are fun.
     
  12. Seiryu

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    It isn't directly stated, but the conversation definitely implies so. The whole conversation is directly tied to the threat of Blackbeard. Once Shanks brings up the topic of Blackbeard, he almost immediately goes into the scar. Shanks doesn't have to talk about the scar if Whitebeard knows about it (the conversation would be more: you remember this scar?). Plus, if Whitebeard knows how Shanks got the scar, he wouldn't let Ace hunt him down alone.

    I do enjoy the discussions, but the hard part is that Oda's perfect writing kills over half of the discussions now. The puzzle pieces have been steadily drawn out for us, and the past 20 years has filled up most of the picture. Some key pieces are still missing, but I would say 90% of the foundation has been set. It does come down to petty details, but something is going to conflicted by a previous breadcrumb. The answers are very limited, but it will connect all relevant details. The only exception might be the war against Big Mom since Oda made illogical changes over his damn pride. There should be over a year to alter the new plot accordingly, but the successful poneglyph stealing is probably what kills the war hype the most.
     
  13. Kia

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    Perhaps, or perhaps it’s stated that way for emphasis but you know Japanese and its culture better than me. As I’ve said, I’m going on translations. And Whitebeard did ban Ace from going. He left without permission.

    I’ll grant that Oda is a planner but no one is perfect.
     

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